I want to enjoy thief, but I can't

[deama]

The main issue I have with the original thief games (1,2) is the whole guards whacking thing. I understand, what thief wouldn't have a blackjack? But the idea of banging all the guards on the head in a level is just ridiculous!
"Why don't you just not bang them then?" You say...
Well, I tried doing that, but I couldn't really do that in the 1st mission of thief 2 wherein you have to escort some lady.

So I was wondering, how viable is the series if you don't whack any guards? Can you even complete them? Is it just that one escort mission?

Also, are there any suggestions to stealth games that don't have you whacking guards?

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

You can ghost both games if I recall correctly, though I never tried it myself.
Non-lethal takedowns always have been a problem in all stealth games, Thief is no exception.
Try to limit the whacking to a reasonable amount that feels right.

 

[Hoaxmetal]

What's wrong with you?

 

[Tigranes]

What's wrong with you?

 

[deama]

What's wrong with you?

What's wrong with you?

Too many shitty stealth games.

 

[Tigranes]

(OK, so: the entire game is ghostable and if you're relying on whacking everyone, then you're coming at it fundamentally from the wrong perspective. You're a vulnerable lone thief there to not make a big fuss, you only blackjack people or cause a scene when you have to. The whole game is about hiding, observing the guards' patrol routes, and mapping the place out in your head, thinking up an escape route, and then jumping from safe spot to safe spot. )

You *can* whack everybody if you want, but if you're not feeling a sense of dread and wanting to stay as hidden as possible, then you're not really going to get the most out of it

It's about a gentle water arrow to create zones of darkness to paddle around; moss arrows to get over that metal floor carpet; the thrill of slowly crouchwalking past a couple of guards chatting about whatever 15 feet away.

 

[deama]

(OK, so: the entire game is ghostable and if you're relying on whacking everyone, then you're coming at it fundamentally from the wrong perspective. You're a vulnerable lone thief there to not make a big fuss, you only blackjack people or cause a scene when you have to. The whole game is about hiding, observing the guards' patrol routes, and mapping the place out in your head, thinking up an escape route, and then jumping from safe spot to safe spot. )

You *can* whack everybody if you want, but if you're not feeling a sense of dread and wanting to stay as hidden as possible, then you're not really going to get the most out of it

It's about a gentle water arrow to create zones of darkness to paddle around; moss arrows to get over that metal floor carpet; the thrill of slowly crouchwalking past a couple of guards chatting about whatever 15 feet away.

Time to try out splinter cell chaos theory then.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Roguey]

styx

In that one, you just outright kill them.

Stealth games with hostiles you can't subdue aren't very fun.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Roguey]

The path of least resistance is the only path worth taking.

 

[SCO]

You're being a contradictory ass.

So you basically want the hardest gameplay mode (ghosting) to be easier than the easiest gameplay mode (removing guards so you don't have to worry about them).

Get a brain. Thief is ghostable from near the start to the end. If you're looking for more stealth games where ghosting is better or *easier* you won't find many. Ghosting on Hitman is sometimes 'possible' but it certainly isn't easier than Thief.

 

[Hines]

Also, are there any suggestions to stealth games that don't have you whacking guards?

Have you considered Eidos Montreal's subversive take on Thief? Thanks to Garrett's Swoop™ ability, even the City Watch's most vigilante guards will never know you were there. What's even better, if you chose switch up your playstyle and take out guards, you can use the "claw"™ both as a weapon and a movement option if you need to make a hasty getaway (will come in very handy since jumping is outlawed in this twisted take of the stealth genre). It's not just for show, as the item plays a huge role in the story, too, including the death(?) of Garrett's unforgettable protegee, Erin, a loose cannon thiefette who cares more about snatching rare finery and gold than life. Get ghosting, brother!

 

[Kirkpatrick]

I believe it's only the first mission of the second Thief that's not possible to be ghosted thanks to position of a couple of guards so you have to whack them. Funny that expert mode actually has the objective to get 8 knockouts. Even Kidnap can be ghosted by some very very very patient (and skilled) people.

Go nuts on missions 2-15 thou.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I believe it's only the first mission of the second Thief that's not possible to be ghosted thanks to position of a couple of guards so you have to whack them.

Why?

Ghosting involves getting in and getting out without being spotted. Ever. Some taffers don't like going that far.

Knocking everyone out is a safe(r) approach, but there are also taffers that don't like going that far.

There's a happy medium in the middle: Distraction. Those two guards you mentioned? Surely you can distract them somehow. Make a noise, get them to either come look for you, or just follow you around the mansion. You're trying to ensure Basso and his beau get to safety because they're stupid NPCs and this is an escort mission. Once they're safe and sound you should be able to pull all kinds of tricks to get rid of the guards.

This is why Thief is so awesome: You can come up with your own shit to get things done.

 

[marbleman]

Thief is very viable in ghost mode. In fact, it's the only game style I enjoy. 1st TMA mission has an objective to KO some guards, so it's okay. The rest can be ghosted however with a few exceptions in some missions, but even then, there are workarounds.

 

[Cross]

It is a valid criticism that stealth games, Thief included, struggle to provide organic incentives for ghosting, or to put it differently, not enough downsides to simply knocking out or killing everyone (besides tedium).

That being said, the brilliant thing about Thief, that has never really been replicated, is that it lets you effectively alter the level design to help you out, using water/moss/rope arrows to create darkened/silent/vertical pathways. Combined with the openness of the levels and the great sound design that clues you in where enemies are, it makes ghosting both fun and viable.

 

[JarlFrank]

Thief is also an amazing game for its exploration in cleverly designed 3D spaces. Just for that reason alone it's one of the best games ever.

 

[taxalot]

I want to enjoy the first Thief but I haven't got around to play it yet. I hear the zombies respawn and that some levels are based only around that. I hate respawning enemies and they seem an even more terrible concept in a stealth game. So yeah. I know. I am missing out.

 

[Kirkpatrick]

I don't remember any respawning.

 

[deama]

You're being a contradictory ass.

So you basically want the hardest gameplay mode (ghosting) to be easier than the easiest gameplay mode (removing guards so you don't have to worry about them)..

No, I want a game that makes it impossible for you to "remove guards" without me having to gimp myself thereby breaking immersion because I would have to be a complete moron not to "remove guards".
Basicaly, I don't like the fact that the game makes me feel like a complete moron for ghosting; or at least trying to.

 

[Roguey]

Zombies don't respawn, but you can't kill them permenantly without holy water and I don't believe you have enough to kill every zombie.

 

[Yandros]

"Can you blackjack every AI in the game? Yes. Will your playing experience be the same if you do? No."

-- some gajo idk

 

[Roguey]

Good luck knocking out those damned giant lizards. Kill each and every one of them.

 

[Santander02]

I would make it so that after knocking out a certain amount of guards, all the remaining ones should go into high alert, they have to notice that their men are going missing sometime....