How to fix Gnomes, Hafllings, Orcs, and Elves.

[Lyric Suite]

Halflings & Dwarves are great, but really what's the point of gnomes.

Simple really. Dwarfs are Scottish or Germans. Halflings are English (or at least they should be, that's how Tolkien made them). That leaves Gnomes and everyone knows who they are.

The dwarfs being scottish is a Blizzard invention. Didn't Tolkien envision them rather as (((dwarves)))?

(((they))) aren't known for their warrior skills so that idea doesn't make sense to me. I remember reading they were based on some kind of Norse mythology but don't quote me on that as the last time i checked was eons ago.

(((Gnomes))) however...

It's been a while since I've read the book (and I don't intend to ever pick it up again since it's more boring than watching paint dry), but weren't the dwarves depicted as being very greedy and obsessed with wealth, which led to their downfall? Also they are hook-nosed and isolationist.

Greed is not an exclusive trait of the you know who. Their exclusive trait is usury (I.E., Shylock). Everything dwarves have they obtained through effort, but what makes me think Tolkien used some kind of mythological source is that the notion of a race that lives underground being obsessed with jewels and gemstones has something deeply metaphysical about it, since the existence of gemstones or precious metals is essentially the divine manifesting its qualities even in the most hardened of matter, rocks and metals. I think there's something more profound to the dwarves love of those riches than mere greed, where as the Jew loves of riches stems from his love for numbers and mathematics, and for abstractions for the sake of abstraction which is a Middle eastern and quite foreign conception of the world compared to Northern Europeans. The notion of producing largess through haggling, by inflating the price beyond what was actually put in terms of labor etc is common in the middle east and it doesn't seem to me this is what dwarves are doing. Dwarves love gemstones and precious things precisely because they are precious, which is quite a different thing.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Halflings & Dwarves are great, but really what's the point of gnomes.

Simple really. Dwarfs are Scottish or Germans. Halflings are English (or at least they should be, that's how Tolkien made them). That leaves Gnomes and everyone knows who they are.

The dwarfs being scottish is a Blizzard invention. Didn't Tolkien envision them rather as (((dwarves)))?

(((they))) aren't known for their warrior skills so that idea doesn't make sense to me. I remember reading they were based on some kind of Norse mythology but don't quote me on that as the last time i checked was eons ago.

(((Gnomes))) however...

Tolkien modeled their language on semitic and the Moria-longing was probably an homage to Israel.

However, Tolkien was a judeophile, and therefore didn't really know much about jews. So he projected all kinds of positive aryan traits onto the dwarves - such as craftsmanship, warrior ethics etc.
These are a positive interpretation of the jewish tinkering and in group preference.

 

[Norfleet]

Dwarves aren't really Jews at all. Jews, not being allowed to own land, generate their wealth through finance and services, enterprises that do not require them to own land. Dwarves are creatures of industry, they produce their wealth through labor and extraction from the lands they own. They are ultimately primarily physical rather than intellectual: Laborers instead of merchants, engineers rather than scientists, and drunks, not alcoholics: no TRUE dwarf would attend one of those MEETINGS!

 

[AliceAlcina]

Halflings & Dwarves are great, but really what's the point of gnomes.

Simple really. Dwarfs are Scottish or Germans. Halflings are English (or at least they should be, that's how Tolkien made them). That leaves Gnomes and everyone knows who they are.

The dwarfs being scottish is a Blizzard invention. Didn't Tolkien envision them rather as (((dwarves)))?

(((they))) aren't known for their warrior skills so that idea doesn't make sense to me. I remember reading they were based on some kind of Norse mythology but don't quote me on that as the last time i checked was eons ago.

(((Gnomes))) however...

Norse mythology:
dwarves were dark elfkin and elves were light elfkin...

I'm not totally versed in that, and it's bit more complicated than that, but yeah, dwarves and elves being close kin

 

[octavius]

Didn't read the whole discussion, but I can imagine Weissman&Hicks Weis&Hickman making the same arguments as the OP, only more articulate, before creating the Kender (and Gnomes) for the Dragonlance setting.

The Gnomes are still useless, but the Kender are fun characters IMO.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Halflings & Dwarves are great, but really what's the point of gnomes.

Simple really. Dwarfs are Scottish or Germans. Halflings are English (or at least they should be, that's how Tolkien made them). That leaves Gnomes and everyone knows who they are.

The dwarfs being scottish is a Blizzard invention. Didn't Tolkien envision them rather as (((dwarves)))?

Warhammer did it earlier in Gotrek & Felix novels.

e. I'm pretty certain that at least 6th ed. army book had that tone. I don't know about earlier ones.

 

[Lagi]

classic set of races (dwarfs, elves...) are all humans IMO. And its getting boring.

Different flavored humans as playable race could be stirred more - like in Serpent of Staglands page 22. So players can associate with them, but still feel edgy enough. This playable race are in "peace" with each other, and it make sens that party consist of this guys, and NPC doesnt care if they hang out together.

and all rest more or less intelligent races should be foreign, alien nations / civilizations, that are usually hostile (for typical slaughter-fest gameplay "we kill them because they different"), and inert at best. Which create a mystery to discover or to be afraid about.

f.ex. Jelly medusas, that are separate hive minds. Conscious of each hive can communicate with another "mind" be sending one of floating species to be assimilated, to send a "text massage".

hmm... sci-fi but with swords really.

 

[Lyric Suite]

That's retarded. You guys are too obsessed with try hard "novelty" for the sake of novelty and don't understand that the cure to make forms "less boring" is to make them deeper, not to discard them for lol random shit.

I'll take my Gnome illusionist/thief from IWD and you can masturbate to your jelly medusas:

 

[Erebus]

The Gnomes are still useless, but the Kender are fun characters IMO.

The concept of kender is very narrow and they're likely to get annoying after a while.


Gnomes have no united identity : there's nothing in common between the faery-like gnomes of Pathfinder and the steampunk gnomes of Dragonlance, for instance. The basic D&D gnomes are indeed useless.


As for halflings... I like hobbits in LotR, I really do, but halflings are hobbits without a Shire and they're somehow just as likely as other races to become professional adventurers, which doesn't really fit with Tolkien's concept.

 

[Desiderius]

Halflings & Dwarves are great, but really what's the point of gnomes.

Simple really. Dwarfs are Scottish or Germans. Halflings are English (or at least they should be, that's how Tolkien made them). That leaves Gnomes and everyone knows who they are.

The dwarfs being scottish is a Blizzard invention. Didn't Tolkien envision them rather as (((dwarves)))?

Pretty sure Hobbits making it to Mt. Doom ~ Jews inventing the bomb before Hitler.

Dwarves created independently (and somewhat shadily) by Aule + Nordic legends upon which he drew (where dwarves are neutral at best) suggests dwarves represent technology for Tolkien, a subject not exactly dear to his heart.

 

[Desiderius]

P:K Gnomes are Jews, bleach being highly caustic. Best treatment I've seen yet of both, on both the strength and weakness side.

WotR IDF Sprigganknight looks set to carry on the tradition.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

As for halflings... I like hobbits in LotR, I really do, but halflings are hobbits without a Shire and they're somehow just as likely as other races to become professional adventurers, which doesn't really fit with Tolkien's concept.

Tolkien's concept was pretty much that, any other race or culture (not counting ents) was more likely adventurer than a Hobbit from Shire.

 

[ekrolo2]

Extermination is the only way to fix the Elves.

 

[Desiderius]

professional adventurers, which doesn't really fit with Tolkien's concept.

His whole point was the amateur ideal, as with the original Olympic revival.

https://golfcollege.edu/bobby-jones-golfs-greatest-amateur/

 

[Serious_Business]

Warhammer fantasy revived fantasy tropes for me, for two reasons : for once it doesn't take it too seriously, and secondly, it can be understood as a subversion of Tolkien, which is really a christian take on fantasy. In Warhammer chaos is first, order second ; in the christian inspired point of view, which you find in the Silmarillion, harmony is first and dissonance second. In fact, other fantasy settings usually linearly follow the same kind of christian idea : there is an order, a god or gods, and the rest is decadence, is secondary in nature ; the races are all more or less insignificant before the divine order. What gave Tolkien elves their aura was that they were intrinsically connected to said divine order, although their connection was fading ; orcs were born of shit, because proletarians are scary and uneducated ; men eventually become their own masters, but that's when the story ends. In Warhammer, nothing from the start is connected to the divine, be it elves, men, orcs, whatever ; the closest thing to a founding you get is in Lovecraft (the Old Ones) ; it's all utter chaos, it's all Lyric Suite's nightmare : complete nihilism, or rather, actual reality, where nothing absolutely matters more than anything else. Of course, the "order" races fight against chaos, but the lore tells you that they are themselves intrinsically linked to chaos : they generate it through their ideas, and so the more they fight against it, the more chaos triumphs ; faith itself comes from chaos and ends up dying in it. The only logical conclusion to all of this is the end of all things, and that's how things end : everything dies. This is a bad conclusion, but you can ignore the End Times and look how the rest works : the elves are different shades of assholes, the dwarves will beat the shit out of you for mocking their beards, the orcs are constantly yelling, humans try to keep their shit together with big cannons, and so on. It's all utter nonsense, but it works, because it doesn't try to tell you an inspiring message or a moral lesson, it just tries to be a playground.

(My true secret agenda is this : necromancy is really cool in Warhammer fantasy)

 

[Alphard]

1-orcs shouldnt be playable because they are evil beast
2-elves shouldnt be playable because they are op
3- dwarves should be given a solid cultural and lore backbone otherwise they are just smaller and uglier human
4- halflings: only since a short time i learned about these. are they supposed to be an hobbit ripoff? out of middle earth context they make no sense, delete them
5- gnomes: seriously? a dying amoeba has more personality and characterization than this soulless race. i'd rather have the budget and dev time that would be used to implement them be used to add all kind of fart noises from different creatures.
6- humans . the only sane choice

 

[Desiderius]

Warhammer fantasy revived fantasy tropes for me, for two reasons : for once it doesn't take it too seriously, and secondly, it can be understood as a subversion of Tolkien, which is really a christian take on fantasy. In Warhammer chaos is first, order second ; in the christian inspired point of view, which you find in the Silmarillion, harmony is first and dissonance second. In fact, other fantasy settings usually linearly follow the same kind of christian idea : there is an order, a god or gods, and the rest is decadence, is secondary in nature ; the races are all more or less insignificant before the divine order. What gave Tolkien elves their aura was that they were intrinsically connected to said divine order, although their connection was fading ; orcs were born of shit, because proletarians are scary and uneducated ; men eventually become their own masters, but that's when the story ends. In Warhammer, nothing from the start is connected to the divine, be it elves, men, orcs, whatever ; the closest thing to a founding you get is in Lovecraft (the Old Ones) ; it's all utter chaos, it's all Lyric Suite's nightmare : complete nihilism, or rather, actual reality, where nothing absolutely matters more than anything else. Of course, the "order" races fight against chaos, but the lore tells you that they are themselves intrinsically linked to chaos : they generate it through their ideas, and so the more they fight against it, the more chaos triumphs ; faith itself comes from chaos and ends up dying in it. The only logical conclusion to all of this is the end of all things, and that's how things end : everything dies. This is a bad conclusion, but you can ignore the End Times and look how the rest works : the elves are different shades of assholes, the dwarves will beat the shit out of you for mocking their beards, the orcs are constantly yelling, humans try to keep their shit together with big cannons, and so on. It's all utter nonsense, but it works, because it doesn't try to tell you an inspiring message or a moral lesson, it just tries to be a playground.

(My true secret agenda is this : necromancy is really cool in Warhammer fantasy)

Your nihilism is the naive edginess of a young boy in the first throes of puberty. One of the principal functions of tragedy (the Silmarillion being one of the best) is to shepherd young men through the difficult transition to manhood. It's still not to late for you, should you choose to pursue it. Some of the greats didn't come to it until almost too late.

Tolkien’s orcs aren’t proles, his men are.

Orcs are elves twisted by resentment and hatred into pathetic shadows of what they were meant to be, like yourself.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/51356/51356-h/51356-h.htm

 

[Erebus]

Tolkien's concept was pretty much that, any other race or culture (not counting ents) was more likely adventurer than a Hobbit from Shire.

Exactly. They're memorable precisely because they're super-sedentary and love nothing more than peace and comfort, yet they can show heroic strength of will and ingenuity when they really have to.

D&D halflings don't have the same background and it's nothing unusual for them to be adventurers. That makes them considerably less interesting than hobbits.

 

[alyvain]

Is it "most people can't roleplay other fantasy races so we should keep only humans" or "writing and world-building in CRPG is generally atrocious so let me do my bit" type of thread?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Didn't read the whole discussion, but I can imagine Weissman&Hicks making the same arguments as the OP, only more articulate, before creating the Kender (and Gnomes) for the Dragonlance setting.

The Gnomes are still useless, but the Kender are fun characters IMO.

The Dragonlance setting was originally conceived by Tracy Hickman and Harold Johnson (TSR's Manager of New Product Design at the time) and then fleshed out by a larger design team (including Margaret Weis and several others). It seems that hobbits halflings were excluded principally for being too obvious in a setting designed to be Tolkienesque.

The Art of the Dragonlance Saga

 

[octavius]

Heh, "Weissman&Hicks". Sounds like some jewish cop lawyer and his handyman. I meant Weis&Hickman, of course.

And I'm wondering if Zed Kike of Bankville...uh... Zed Duke of Banville is still a lvl 36 D&D nerd or has ascended to an Immortal now.

 

[Desiderius]

These matters are too important to be taken entirely seriously, but I’ll admit not having read anything regarding Tolkien and dwarves this millennium.

Where have I gone amiss, Zed?

 

[Semiurge]

Why do you feel the need to go after halflings and gnomes, when they're the only non-human races on your list that aren't despicable? Well, except dwarves, of course. And orcs.

Hobbits love food more than women. What does that tell you?

 

[Norfleet]

To be fair, that woman is pretty disturbing.

 

[Norfleet]

Gnomes have no united identity : there's nothing in common between the faery-like gnomes of Pathfinder and the steampunk gnomes of Dragonlance, for instance. The basic D&D gnomes are indeed useless.

That's because gnomes are just this kind of odd intermediary stuck between "dwarf" and "elf". Since "dwarf" and "elf" are themselves opposite ends of the axis, the other axis being "pirate" and "ninja", gnomes fall into this odd neutral, somehow trying to define themselves as distinct from the other neutral races, except without the mutability. Unlike humans, which could go either pirate or ninja, non-humans have to have some sort of hat, or else they're just weird-looking humans. So on the chart, where exactly would gnomes fit?

               NINJA
                 ^
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DWARF <----------+----------> ELF
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                 V
               PIRATE

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or was he just born with a heart full of neutrality?