Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

HITMAN 3 - final chapter of the nu-Hitman trilogy - now available on Steam

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
3,044
Location
Romania
People act like the new Hitman is decline because of the (optional) mission guides, but I'm replaying Contracts and the game literally has random neon signs pop up in the top right corner telling you "JOE BLOW IS READY TO BE POISONED," and then shows a little cutscene of the guy getting a drink from the butler. Also the (rare) idle chatter has guards say things like "butler has a lot of cyanide in his room" just like the modern games. Also also because there are so few items sitting around, it is glaringly obvious which ones matter, as in there being one item in the entire barn you can pick up (weed killer) and one giant machine you can interact with (horse water). These things are also marked on the map with exclamation points. In short, I think seeing some major difference is mostly nostalgia goggles, especially if you turn off the horrible step-by-step guides in the current ones.
To me, the WoA trilogy is decline. When they remove features from previous games, in this case Blood Money, you can't expect me to praise them. Also, Blood Money is when the series started to have this idea of multiple ways to kill someone and introduced accidents as well. Before that, there were clear ways of getting Silent Assassin in the other 2 games, Silent Assassin and Contracts. Sure, you could still shoot everything or kill people randomly or whatever but to get SA you had to follow a certain path. Blood Money is when it opened up a lot.
Also, everything you can do in WoA, can be done in BM. There's literally not one new mechanic, none. They took stuff out and polished what remained, added prompts everywhere (when you're climbing, dropping down etc. In BM this stuff was done automatically and it was smoother because PC was the main focus not consoles), made it possible to play it like you play a Splinter Cell game (the suit only challenge which is the only difficulty these new game have), created vast maps filled with accident opportunities (you don't don't even have to try anymore, at least in BM they were limited and you had some tension while trying to do an accident kill, like the guy lifting weights in Flatline) and being able to hide in vegetation like in Far Cry and Ass Creed, 47 now has a sense of humor, and a possible love interest with Diana (whose parents he killed (wtf?)), online only progression and score, very poor arsenal with plenty of mark 2 and 3 items, not being able to carry more items from the beginning but you can carry everything you find in a level, not being able to modify weapons, no blood trails, no elevators and no elevator hiding and strangling, no sniper rifle assembly and disassembly animation, no newspapers, no human shields, no notoriety and blood money system, no looking through key holes, no showing what direction NPCs are facing when looking at the map or minimap, no NPC disarming, no dual wielding. Whatever, order of mention is not necessarily order of importance.
BM also had its faults, but that doesn't justify removing features instead of fixing or polishing them.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
BM also had its faults, but that doesn't justify removing features instead of fixing or polishing them.

I mean, it also added a bunch of stuff Blood Money doesn't have, it's a give and take. Your post makes it pretty clear you love Blood Money and are disappointed WoA isn't that, and that's fine. Anyway my point had nothing to do with what you posted really, it wasn't really about game quality. I just read a lot of people saying that WoA suddenly gives the player hints and guidance that were never there before, and replaying Contracts I see that's a bunch of B.S. because it constantly gives hints and guidance. Honestly if you turn off the mission stories in WoA, I'd say it offers less.
 

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
3,044
Location
Romania
BM also had its faults, but that doesn't justify removing features instead of fixing or polishing them.

I mean, it also added a bunch of stuff Blood Money doesn't have, it's a give and take. Your post makes it pretty clear you love Blood Money and are disappointed WoA isn't that, and that's fine. Anyway my point had nothing to do with what you posted really, it wasn't really about game quality. I just read a lot of people saying that WoA suddenly gives the player hints and guidance that were never there before, and replaying Contracts I see that's a bunch of B.S. because it constantly gives hints and guidance. Honestly if you turn off the mission stories in WoA, I'd say it offers less.
If you turn them off, it offers the same. In WoA they just added breadcrumbs for you to follow, appearing in the top center of the screen "mission story revealing" which you can track and it's basically hand holding, showing you where to go, what to get, step by step. It's a lot more user friendly than Contracts or the other games in the series. In previous games you found items that you then had to figure out which goes where and does what. Was a bit more invested, at least the first time because after that you knew.
In WoA you also have those challenges that tell you all the ways you can eliminate a target. What happened with you discovering that stuff on your own?
Contracts is older, I assume they were still struggling to find an identity for the IP, experimented with stuff etc. I haven't played it in a long time, I don't remember much about it except for some maps. What Contracts is praised for a lot is its atmosphere and some recreation of previous levels from CN47.
And yeah, I like BM and I expected the sequel to be better in every capacity. It isn't, it's different, but not better.
In the long term I don't see this series having enough staying power. They already repeated the story from BM with the same "betrayal" from Diana, but whatever. At this point it's the only AAA (or AA?) stealth series around. All the others are kinda dead if you don't count the FMs for Thief 1 and 2 and the Dark Mod.
 

Belegarsson

Think about hairy dwarfs all the time ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Patron
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
1,261
Location
Uwotopia
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
There's actually a lot of new features, they are just integrated to main mechanics to create a more free form puzzle box level design.

In Blood Money, there's mainly three ways to pass blocked paths: disguise, alternative paths like water pipes, and keycard. The latter is often reserved for highly important areas, and securing a key is, depended on your aim, a secondary objective. A prime example of this is A House of Cards, no elevator card = literally can't progress (unless you go with sniper). Curtains Down in some capacity is the same with the light control room.

WoA tried to fix this with varied items with different functions. So now in most the maps, you don't really need to find a keycard but a lockpick or a crowbar can do the trick with a door, a shaft requires screwdriver, a machinery requires wrench. If there's a path that requires specific tool, then the game makes sure there's one more source to get them. For example, in Chongqing you can find various floor access dongles for the same floor, but there's only one dongle for a different floor (in level 2, you can find a lot of level 2 dongles, but there's only one level 3 dongle in the security room, because realistically only Royce and the guards can move between these floors). If you go with suit only or can't secure level 3 dongle, you have the shafts.

Basically, play a level at least twice and you can see the design of WoA is far more different than Blood Money. It encourages memorizing item placements and pathways, with item diversity helping improvising choices, and items have more purpose than just to throw. This also explains why you can't carry more than 3 items. You have access to alternative entrances that shorten the paths to get necessary tools, so it's your turn to make use of map knowledge to get them. If you can just start with a switz knife that can open every path then the map is no longer worth discovering, they are forgiving enough with permanent opened shortcuts anyway.

The maps are filled with accidental kill opportunity, but often targets are accompanied by a guard so you can't just wait for them to walk into the trap. Some traps like electrified water not just requires specific tool but also timing, because in some case if you sabotage the plug too early, it can distract another NPC nearly early and kill them instead. It finally dawned on me in season 2 that IO fixed a usually unnoticed flaw in BM: targets walk into a room alone way often. In Hitman 3, there's a lot of work if you can make that happen. I've played most of the assassination attempts in Dartmoor and the only one where Alexa is alone is the graveyard one, and even then you have to hit her right when the guard turns away. In Chongqing there's only two ways to keep Royce alone, one in the core room where you have to fire a guard and the operational staff (or block the glasses in her room), and the other way which involves too much choking staffs, and again blocking glasses, if you go with accident kill then you must have poison or a screwdriver, so on.

very poor arsenal with plenty of mark 2 and 3 items, not being able to carry more items from the beginning but you can carry everything you find in a level, not being able to modify weapons, no blood trails, no elevators and no elevator hiding and strangling, no sniper rifle assembly and disassembly animation, no newspapers, no human shields, no notoriety and blood money system, no looking through key holes, no showing what direction NPCs are facing when looking at the map or minimap, no NPC disarming, no dual wielding. Whatever, order of mention is not necessarily order of importance.
BM also had its faults, but that doesn't justify removing features instead of fixing or polishing them.
Honestly out of these I can only agree with elevator, since it can spice up traversal in maps that have more than 1 building. IMO modifying weapon is unnecessary in a game where you don't use weapons that much aside from a silenced pistol and sniper. Blood trail is debatable but the way the game encourages you to knock people out non-lethally, they probably just thought it would complicate NPC's behaviour more than necessary. Sniper animation is... well it's cool I guess. Newspaper, not necessary since the targets you go after are purely personal. Notoriety, yeah it's a cool feature but I don't think it fits with the personal storyline and theme in this game. Looking through key holes, not necessary since you have a real time minimap. No showing NPC direction, not necessary since the real time map exists and giving the cones just makes it easier to avoid them. NPC disarming and dual wielding, I honestly don't think they're that important, to be honest.

It's just that more doesn't mean better. WoA games are way more complex and less dimensional in mechanics, while feeling more forgiving and free form than BM. Even with the breadcumbs (which you can turn off, and often you can just follow what they talked about).
In WoA you also have those challenges that tell you all the ways you can eliminate a target. What happened with you discovering that stuff on your own?
There's a lot of assassination challenges that are redacted. It's the usual AAA checklist design, but I personally don't really glance at them unless I'm really bored, and it's totally possible to find them out organically.

TL;DR: they're really different, even if on paper WoA doesn't have more mechanics than BM.
 
Last edited:

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
3,044
Location
Romania
In Blood Money, there's mainly three ways to pass blocked paths: disguise, alternative paths like water pipes, and keycard.
You can also shoot open doors, not the metal ones I think.
WoA tried to fix this with varied items with different functions. So now in most the maps, you don't really need to find a keycard but a lockpick or a crowbar can do the trick with a door, a shaft requires screwdriver, a machinery requires wrench. If there's a path that requires specific tool, then the game makes sure there's one more source to get them. For example, in Chongqing you can find various floor access dongles for the same floor, but there's only one dongle for a different floor (in level 2, you can find a lot of level 2 dongles, but there's only one level 3 dongle in the security room, because realistically only Royce and the guards can move between these floors). If you go with suit only or can't secure level 3 dongle, you have the shafts.
Various tools with multiple functions are a good thing and the level design is very good as well. I know because I played them suit only and this requires finding other ways to do stuff or get somewhere. But it wasn't a problem that needed fixing. In WoA there's the same thing, important or key items are also in very guarded areas except now with the better level design, you can access them in other ways.
The very example you gave with the dongles. The level design is great, no one contests that.
The maps are filled with accidental kill opportunity, but often targets are accompanied by a guard so you can't just wait for them to walk into the trap. Some traps like electrified water not just requires specific tool but also timing, because in some case if you sabotage the plug too early, it can distract another NPC nearly early and kill them instead. It finally dawned on me in season 2 that IO fixed a usually unnoticed flaw in BM: targets walk into a room alone way often.
It's solved with the emetic poison gun. It takes bodyguards away from targets leaving them alone. And even without the gun you can use a very powerful distraction tool: yourself. Let yourself be seen all the way until the arc is almost filled and then break LoS. If the target is the one seeing you, it will come to investigate. This works with all NPCs. It's also a tool that works in most modern games, also in Far Cry. It's silent and effective. You can also just let guns in their paths. The target will just tell the bodyguard to pick it up and deliver it to security. This trio of distractions make accidents or just neutralizations in general very easy. Seems like they ended up in the same situation, not alone in a room, but alone and exposed to distractions and accidents.
Honestly out of these I can only agree with elevator, since it can spice up traversal in maps that have more than 1 building. IMO modifying weapon is unnecessary in a game where you don't use weapons that much aside from a silenced pistol and sniper. Blood trail is debatable but the way the game encourages you to knock people out non-lethally, they probably just thought it would complicate NPC's behaviour more than necessary. Sniper animation is... well it's cool I guess. Newspaper, not necessary since the targets you go after are purely personal. Notoriety, yeah it's a cool feature but I don't think it fits with the personal storyline and theme in this game. Looking through key holes, not necessary since you have a real time minimap. No showing NPC direction, not necessary since the real time map exists and giving the cones just makes it easier to avoid them. NPC disarming and dual wielding, I honestly don't think they're that important, to be honest.
So this is just personal preference then. I've seen this kind of responses before and they're not convincing. What I criticize the most is the removal of features. It's the one in thing in ANY series that pisses me off to no end. If you remove something at least replace it with something else, better or at least equivalent with whatever you eliminated. Give more options and interaction with the game world and NPCs, not less. They managed to do it in 2006 with, what I assume, a much smaller budget. What, they lost the code or something? Is technology not yet sufficiently advanced for such things? This reminds me back when GTA 4 launched and Rockstar gave a response to some fan criticism about Niko not being able to get slim or fat based on how much he eats, that the technology doesn't allow them to do that yet. But in San Andreas it allowed them to. In older technology it was possible. I heard that it's possible in RDR2 but IDK, I didn't play that thing.
It's just that more doesn't mean better.
Having more interaction is better. If the game is well made and interaction is a tool, a system, then it's up to the player to use it creatively or however else he or she sees fit.
TL;DR: they're really different, even if on paper WoA doesn't have more mechanics than BM.
We can agree, they're different.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
If you turn them off, it offers the same. In WoA they just added breadcrumbs for you to follow, appearing in the top center of the screen "mission story revealing" which you can track and it's basically hand holding, showing you where to go, what to get, step by step. It's a lot more user friendly than Contracts or the other games in the series..

I'm not trying to be Codex snarky, but again my entire point was Contracts does this more than you think it did. It has bright flashing messages about poisoning people, it cuts to a scene of them getting whiskey from the butler so you know what to do, every item of importance is a flashing icon on the map, etc. etc. I was surprised too, I didn't expect that, but there it is. Hitman 2016+ offer much less guidance if you turn mission stories off, honestly.
 

Maggot

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
1,243
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
Ended up grabbing the game off Epic and linking a family member's account to it, whom I was leeching off of with family sharing. The first thing I noticed is that Hitman 1-3 are now 55 GB total instead of the 100+ GB 1 and 2 were on Steam and I don't notice any major differences in visual fidelity which is nice. Another thing is that this is the first World of Assassination game to feel like a coherent game rather than a collection of levels and they manage to do it without compromising on the sandbox nature of the game, and when you want to replay the missions there are alternate starting points that will let you get straight to the sandbox without having to redo the story/atmosphere bits every time. The new environmental keycode stuff is great to see and it feels like they exercised a lot of restraint with the map design to keep missions from feeling overly bloated like Hitman 2's Colombia mission where it was really just 3 levels taped together connected by tunnels. Still have to beat the train mission but every level so far has been great.
 

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,612
Location
Denmark
Finally finished hitman 1-3 and man, great experience. I fell in love with the genre again, and really enjoy the different variations and kills. good stuff indeed.
 

Volrath

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
4,299
Did they finally add the sniper animation? Can you look through keyholes yet?

Wake me up when they do.
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
3,060
Location
Brazil
Divinity: Original Sin
Can you look through keyholes yet?
When was the last time you saw a keyhole that you could look through IRL? Open keyholes seem to be something that belongs to a bygone era.

Splinter cell had an interesting gadget: the optic cable, which was a flexible camera so you could see under the door. It wouldn't feel out of place in a hitman game.
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
11,983
Location
Flowery Land
Under a door, yes. Problem is that the inside of any remotely modern lock, even a crappy cheapo master lock, is just sealed.
 

Hace El Oso

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Messages
3,727
Location
Bogotá
In reality, lockpicking by hand or with an electric pick is quite entertaining. But maybe that’s considered too far towards espionage or burglary by the developers.
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
3,060
Location
Brazil
Divinity: Original Sin
Under a door, yes. Problem is that the inside of any remotely modern lock, even a crappy cheapo master lock, is just sealed.

Well. difficulties. You shoudn't be able to see through those doors in anyway then. If they have to provide a way to make you see whats going on, add some camera that you can access through a security room.

It's been a while since I've played any hitman, but could you see through keyholes on any door? Was it available to any kind of door?
 

IDtenT

Menace to sobriety!
Patron
Joined
Jan 21, 2012
Messages
14,728
Location
South Africa; My pronouns are: Banal/Shit/Boring
Divinity: Original Sin
Can you look through keyholes yet?
When was the last time you saw a keyhole that you could look through IRL? Open keyholes seem to be something that belongs to a bygone era.

Splinter cell had an interesting gadget: the optic cable, which was a flexible camera so you could see under the door. It wouldn't feel out of place in a hitman game.
I remember Rainbow Six: Vegas was a optical cable under the door / door breach simulator.

Fun game, especially with a partner.
 

Borian

Guest
I notice stark differences in level design between WoA and the original 4 games. I played Silent Assassin and Contracts through back when they were released. I played Blood Money a few years after it came out but I barely remember it, except that I found 47's interactions with a gangster stereotype very funny. I played a few levels of Codename 47 a couple years ago but didn't finish it, and I didn't finish Absolution. Therefore all of my knowledge of the older games is at best a decade old and at worst well over that. These games were linear and the levels, as far as I can recall, were much bigger (at least in 2 and 3). The design was tightly focused around surpassing puzzles in level design and, as a contrast to most other games at the time, the gamefeel and aesthetics were tightly bound together and given important emphasis. The philosophy of a series of small puzzles in level design was commonplace in design for games of that era.
WoA seems more like a game of this era, with "puzzlebox" being the perfect word for its design philosophy. In contrast to my old memories of the original games, they're inherently openly designed in every aspect. On some levels I simply ran up and shot the targets to get it over with, either because I didn't care about exploring or I wanted to make good use of my time, or I wasn't in the right mood. The levels are as interesting as you can find them to be. I spent around an hour exploring most aspects of the Providence castle, but in the Cartel level I simply killed the targets. That's on me for only engaging in the stories of the levels I find interesting. I was far more invested in the levels that were tied into the narrative, and thus I spent more time engaging in the designs of those levels. It's good that there are numerous levels that aren't important to the narrative, that fits the theme and design well. Without all the other stuff layered on top of killing the targets, this design would not have worked in 2002, but it works today, in a game designed to be played online. You might be able to guess that, for strictly cautionary reasons, I was "unable" to "participate" in the online aspects, so I can't comment on them, but I assume they complete the replayability circle this game seems to achieve.
Absolution is a good example of the old style not working with new companies, new designers, new players and new philosophies in a new era, while WoA is a good example of doing the old style in a way that works today while also being a good game. Nu-Hitman is pretty good, but honestly, it felt like the game wasn't complete until Hitman 3. And I do consider them all to be one game. The levels, by necessity and philosophy, are too few and too short for each game, but with all 3 you get a considerable number and variety. With that said, this single game, "Hitman: World of Assassination" is a very good addition to the Hitman series.
I'm on codex because I still think the old games were better. :mixedemotions:

Edit: I recently tried to play Silent Assassin again, after completing Hitman 2's levels, but I became so frustrated at technical problems, including technical problems for fixes meant to fix technical problems, that I gave up on it. I'll try again soon.
Also, I like that Nu-Hitman feels like it was designed. Many new games I play today don't feel like they were designed. You know what I mean, when you can tell exactly what aspect of a game was shoved in, and you can probably make a good guess as to what point in time during the development process it was shoved in. Most irritatingly, I can often obviously see where the developers forgot to take into account an overall design philosophy. Some games feel like nothing more than a series of programmer indulgence code splurges packed into an exe, then siphoned through a Paypall tunnel or sneaked through a Steam paywall.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Alphons

Cipher
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
2,616



Are they self-consious that they started with GREED or is it just a coincidence?

TLDR: Not actual expansion, just 7 escalations and some new suits and items
 

ADL

Prophet
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
4,109
Location
Nantucket
As much as I'd love new maps, their DLC maps were always lackluster compared to the main campaign and at this point there's more than enough to work with. I loved the Patient Zero campaign and this looks like more of that.
 

Alphons

Cipher
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
2,616
As much as I'd love new maps, their DLC maps were always lackluster compared to the main campaign and at this point there's more than enough to work with. I loved the Patient Zero campaign and this looks like more of that.

I disagree, both Haven Island and Bank were much better than Bangkok for example.

On the topic of Patient Zero (aside from Vector, I liked it too)- for owners of HITMAN 2016 it costed 10$- aside from 4 new missions on existing maps you got 3 escalations with new items.

This DLC costs 30$- you get 7 escalations with new items. This cost is the same for everyone.


GREED
 

Alphons

Cipher
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
2,616
HITMAN Forum regular Shrodax recreated the paid escalation as 3 separate contracts.

10d655b4bfe036d9280fd8f906df8c773402cae3_2_1380x772.jpeg

PC only contract:
Level 1: 1-27-0608708-04
Level 2: 1-27-8741189-04
Level 3: 1-27-7776602-04
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom