KickStarter Guido Henkel's Deathfire: Ruins of Nethermore - CANCELLED

[Monty]

Kickstarter, a platform only viable for people hiding behind large company names... sigh. Maybe it should be renamed to "Mockstarter".

Also depends on what you have to offer and how much you're after. After failing at one kickstarter he should have probably only come back with a good playable demo, seeking funds to finish it. If you're just going on plans for a game you need big names or to really hit that nostalgia sweet spot, like "new Torment", "new BG" etc.

When Kickstarter first took off people were desperate for any bit of non-AAA incline, but most people I know have already backed a few projects and are waiting to see how they turn out. Gamers can be more choosy now, and this pitch didn't make it on a few counts (as outlined by Zed).

 

[Lady_Error]

In another interview he said that they asked him if he wanted to do the Realms of Arkania HD, but he declined saying that he already worked on those games and wanted to do something new. And he also thinks that the expectations would have been too high, whatever that means.

It also seems like Hans-Juergen Braendle was the real RoA/Dark Eye fanatic at Attic, not Guido.

 

[Grunker]

B: Blobbers are unattractive and unpopular among the larger public

Would have fisted if not for this.

I think you are wrong, and I don't buy your explanation for Legend of Grimrock and M&MX as lucky outliers. When I spoke to Limbic Entertainment at Gamescom, they were in complete agreement that based on the reaction to Grimrock, blobbers seemed much more popular than previously perceived. When they asked Ubisoft about it, and Ubisoft asked their marketing department, there was a general agreement about this. Following this, they did some soul-searching and customer-base checking. Not only did they find loyalty to the M&M brand - they found loyalty to the oldschool 1st-person RPG (blobber) that Grimrock and M&M represented.

In fact, Pirou went as far as to say that M&MX probably would have never happened without Grimrock's success.

There is definetely a market for the blobber. It is hardly as big as the market for isometric games, but to raise $350,000, it doesn't have to be. This Kickstarter is failing for the other reasons you mentioned as well as the fact that me and Vault Dweller already pointed out: on Kickstarter, you don't sell games, you sell togetherness. You sell dreams. "MAN, remember this really cool thing that we can't have today because fuck modernism/publishers/whatever? We want to make that, YOU can make it happen, COME BE A PART of this great huge thing we're doing in HONOUR of our common, glorious past (that we are going to exaggerate the importance of for the purposes of this video, by the way)."

Most posters here have taken the fact that me and VD point this out as though we're just out to get Guido or some bullshit. That we are haunting Guido because he doesn't try the above, and that as true RPG fans we should instead be supporting Guido's attempt to sell the game on its own merits.

The truth is that my support doesn't matter, Guido HAS to appeal to a larger group of people, and if he fails that, why should I have faith in him? These things were pointed out to him during Thorvalla, and he turned them all down. He said "well, people don't like this kind of game apparantly". He said that about Thorvalla just like you are now saying it about Deathfire ("people just don't like blobbers").

If you disagree, then fair enough, but I fucking dare you to show me a successful Kickstarter that wasn't founded on nostalgic hype. As a concept, it is far more important than anything actually related to game concept and gameplay.

 

[Zed]

In fact, Pirou went as far as to say that M&MX probably would have never happened without Grimrock's success.

There is definetely a market for the blobber.

I'd say blobbers have "re-found" an audience, while for instance WL2 and Eternity never really lost their audiences (they were just neglected over the years).
Blobbers are popular enough to be successful games - alright. But I don't think that the popularity of a couple of games directly translates into successfully crowdfunding a third.

 

[tuluse]

Before kickstarter, there had been a commercially successful blobber more recently than a commercially successful isometric RPG (the last one would be ToEE I think).

 

[Zed]

Before kickstarter, there had been a commercially successful blobber more recently than a commercially successful isometric RPG (the last one would be ToEE I think).

Yes, and add to this that I've never seen a blobber (classic or otherwise) even near the top of gog's charts. They are simply not as popular. Of course, this doesn't have to make them unpopular.

 

[Grunker]

In fact, Pirou went as far as to say that M&MX probably would have never happened without Grimrock's success.

There is definetely a market for the blobber.

I'd say blobbers have "re-found" an audience, while for instance WL2 and Eternity never really lost their audiences (they were just neglected over the years).
Blobbers are popular enough to be successful games - alright. But I don't think that the popularity of a couple of games directly translates into successfully crowdfunding a third.

I agree with all this, except the last bit. If someone as big as Ubisoft - from what we're led to believe - gives enough credit to Grimrock's success that it flat-out becomes a major reason for them giving the green light to a blobber, I would think the market is easily there. Considering how conservative AAA publishers are.

Before kickstarter, there had been a commercially successful blobber more recently than a commercially successful isometric RPG (the last one would be ToEE I think).

Yes, and add to this that I've never seen a blobber (classic or otherwise) even near the top of gog's charts. They are simply not as popular. Of course, this doesn't have to make them unpopular.

Am I missing something, or did tuluse not argue in favor of blobber-popularity?

 

[Zed]

I agree with all this, except the last bit. If someone as big as Ubisoft - from what we're led to believe - gives enough credit to Grimrock's success that it flat-out becomes a major reason for them giving the green light to a blobber, I would think the market is easily there. Considering how conservative AAA publishers are.

They're still pretty conservative. To be honest, compared to the old games and Guido's ambitions, I think M&MX and in particular Grimrock are quite, uhm, "light."

Am I missing something, or did tuluse not argue in favor of blobber-popularity?

I read it as a general observation.

 

[Grunker]

They're still pretty conservative. To be honest, compared to the old games and Guido's ambitions, I think M&MX and in particular Grimrock are quite, uhm, "light."

Agreed, but I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say that if Guido had "pulled a Fargo" (i.e. charismatic and appeal-to-nostalgia pitch), as well as solve the other issues you pointed out, he could raise $350.000. I mean, look at the games that HAVE managed that. Deathfire is concrete, good-looking and fairly polished compared to those. Unless the blobber-crowd is truly insignificant, it should have been possible to pull in at least that much.

 

[:Flash:]

A: There is no starpower what-so-ever to convince backers besides a smaller enclave of germans and Arkania fanatics.
Guido himself is not a big name. His studio seems rather non-existent and they have made no games together prior to this.

This is not completely correct. They all worked together at Attic (except for Henkel's wife). And all except Marian Arnold worked on Shadows over Riva.
This could have been a huge selling point. "Old Attic team members, who later went on to work on Planescape: Torment and the Divinity Series reform to work on new RPG."
Instead it was Guido Henkel going "We don't want to talk about the past, now we make a game that is called Deathfire and has Zombies."

 

[Zed]

A: There is no starpower what-so-ever to convince backers besides a smaller enclave of germans and Arkania fanatics.
Guido himself is not a big name. His studio seems rather non-existent and they have made no games together prior to this.

This is not completely correct. They all worked together at Attic (except for Henkel's wife). And all except Marian Arnold worked on Shadows over Riva.
This could have been a huge selling point. "Old Attic team members, who later went on to work on Planescape: Torment and the Divinity Series reform to work on new RPG."
Instead it was Guido Henkel going "We don't want to talk about the past, now we make a game that is called Deathfire and has Zombies."

Wow. I didn't know that. I thought he had scraped together a handful of mobile games developers or something.

 

[Maelflux]

I found this rather interesting reply/quote on the Deathjfire forums on Kickstarter. Apparently the backers are trying to get many other somewhat successfull KS projects to back it, and this is the reply they gor from the Mandate project:

"Hi Thomas <KS backer who asked them>,

We are already in contact with Guido and are giving him feedback. While we would not mind cross promoting we think that he needs to clarify the setting, the story, who the good and bad guys are etc. We had a huge conversion to backers after we got a shout out via Torment but Deathfire did not.

I am a fan of Realms of Arkania, Wizardy etc but personally I did not feel the urge to back because I did not get what the game is about. The pitch felt more like something that is suitable when discussing between developers but not when you want to excite and hook backers. Marketing is a skill (which we have not mastered either seeing as we are also devs but we have learnt a lot about it).

So I think the problem with Deathfire is that the concept is unclear. But we are waiting for feedback from Guido.

Cheers,
Ole Herbjørnsen
Executive Producer
The Mandate"

It corresponds well with the discussion going on here, whether it is a successful pitch or not, imo.

Edit: Link added
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...rmore/comments?cursor=5235617#comment-5235616

 

[mondblut]

So I think the problem with Deathfire is that the concept is unclear.

Except that clear concepts sell the worst.

The problem with Deathfire is that it didn't have an industry rockstar aboard.

 

[V_K]

I found this rather interesting reply/quote on the Deathjfire forums on Kickstarter. Apparently the backers are trying to get many other somewhat successfull KS projects to back it, and this is the reply they gor from the Mandate project:

"Hi Thomas <KS backer who asked them>,

We are already in contact with Guido and are giving him feedback. While we would not mind cross promoting we think that he needs to clarify the setting, the story, who the good and bad guys are etc. We had a huge conversion to backers after we got a shout out via Torment but Deathfire did not.

I am a fan of Realms of Arkania, Wizardy etc but personally I did not feel the urge to back because I did not get what the game is about. The pitch felt more like something that is suitable when discussing between developers but not when you want to excite and hook backers. Marketing is a skill (which we have not mastered either seeing as we are also devs but we have learnt a lot about it).

So I think the problem with Deathfire is that the concept is unclear. But we are waiting for feedback from Guido.

Cheers,
Ole Herbjørnsen
Executive Producer
The Mandate"

It corresponds well with the discussion going on here, whether it is a successful pitch or not, imo.

Edit: Link added
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...rmore/comments?cursor=5235617#comment-5235616

What a douchebag.

 

[stony3k]

Guys (especially Grunker and VD), go and look at the pitch now. He's fixed a lot of what you complain about - his Matt Chat videos are all about history and the nostalgia trip. It's still not selling because I think he just rubs too many people off the wrong way and some of you are still holding grudges from Thorvala. The quote from the Mandate guy is pretty crazy given the amount of details he's now revealed. Pretty shameful given that he's plugged their game, and they diss him back in return. Again, go see some of the latest updates and videos, there's a lot of difference - he's even changed the KickStarter pitch video to include more about his and his team's history.

Edit: the more I read Ole's comments the more like a douchebag he seems.

 

[Monty]

Think it's too late now unfortunately. These things need to be sorted in the early stages of the campaign as most people now look at the funding to date and know it will fail, so don't bother. Kickstarter is full of failing pitches like this.

I agree he has improved things, but I still think after a previous failed kickstarter he needed to learn the lessons and get this pitch right from the beginning. And if he could have got to the 'playable demo' stage, however basic, it could have made all the difference.

 

[theSavant]

I kinda understand the Mandate people, because Deathfire still gives a fuzzy impression, and what we've seen isn't too exciting. Not when you look at it on first sight. Only when you read between the lines, and carefully read every update then you can IMAGINE - I repeat - IMAGINE the potential of Deathfire. However imagination is something most people lost nowadays, or they don't have the patience to imagine something. They want it IN THEIR FACE. If it doesn't appeal them on the first look, they won't bother to imagine or read the updates anymore. It's probably something all devs have to deal with if they lost their popularity...

 

[Kem0sabe]

Compared to the Mandate kickstarter, most other presentations are lacking. They nailed everything just right, nice concept art, detailed system explanations, great ingame footage... and above all else they transmitted the impression that they are more than capable of pulling off their awesome concept.

 

[V_K]

I kinda understand the Mandate people, because Deathfire still gives a fuzzy impression, and what we've seen isn't too exciting. Not when you look at it on first sight. Only when you read between the lines, and carefully read every update then you can IMAGINE - I repeat - IMAGINE the potential of Deathfire. However imagination is something most people lost nowadays, or they don't have the patience to imagine something. They want it IN THEIR FACE. If it doesn't appeal them on the first look, they won't bother to imagine or read the updates anymore. It's probably something all devs have to deal with if they lost their popularity...

And what is it exactly that isn't known about Deathfire at the moment? I can only think of magic system, which, frankly, rarely is an important selling point. All the other apsects of the game seem to have received reasonable coverage.

 

[V_K]

And anyway, it's not like cross-promoting Deathfire would cost the guy anything, nor has he any reasons to suspect Guido to be a fraud. So this whole "I'm not impressed" attitude of his is pure jerkness and nothing else.

 

[Infinitron]

Agreed that the Mandate guys are being pretentious assholes, but I can understand them not wanting to be associated with the stench of failure. Especially since their KS is still in progress.

 

[dunno lah]

Fuck those Mandate guys. MCA wouldn't pull that shit.

 

[felipepepe]

You guys are all thinking like Codexers, not like regular audience... "Guido Henkel's bloober" may suffice for some here, but most people are all about plot, characters and stuffies... they want to know how they'll be "emmotionaly engaged" and all that shit, and Deathfire's KS page has none of that.

 

[V_K]

Agreed that the Mandate guys are being pretentious assholes, but I can understand them not wanting to be associated with the stench of failure. Especially since their KS is still in progress.

Too late - Guido already referenced them in his latest update .

 

[Crooked Bee]

Agreed that the Mandate guys are being pretentious assholes, but I can understand them not wanting to be associated with the stench of failure. Especially since their KS is still in progress.

A simple mention at the end of a KS update isn't really being associated though, imo, and wouldn't hurt their own KS either. It's common practice by now and just means "hey, check this out", nothing more.