KickStarter Grim Dawn

[toro]

Just got back from Europe so gonna get into this shit finally now!

How was it? Europe, I mean.

 

[Cynic]

Just got back from Europe so gonna get into this shit finally now!

How was it? Europe, I mean.

It was wicked. Except for Paris, fuck that place and the people there. Food everywhere was amazing, ate so much and drank a litre of wine with every meal.

 

[Cynic]

Played a little more, but I am jet lagged as fuck, need to sleep now. Heaps of fun honestly. Does anyone else get weird graphics stuttering at random points? It seems to happen every so often then it all smooths out fine in a couple of seconds.

 

[sea]

Played a little more, but I am jet lagged as fuck, need to sleep now. Heaps of fun honestly. Does anyone else get weird graphics stuttering at random points? It seems to happen every so often then it all smooths out fine in a couple of seconds.

Yeah, that has been dramatically improved in the latest versions. It's due to the asset loading as you run around the world.

 

[Cynic]

Right, it's pretty jarring. I can live with it but hopefully they fix that completely ASAP.

 

[Infinitron]

sea preview at GameBanshee: http://gamebanshee.com/previews/111617-grim-dawn-preview.html

 

[DeepOcean]

From sea preview, it appears that it is impossible or very hard to run around with a ranged character avoiding most enemies all the time, it they don't change it, it could mean massive . Ranged characters have a massive advantage in those kinds of games because for some reason the players is always the fastest guy around.

 

[Cynic]

Nice write up sea. I'm not sure I agree about the environment objects, in fact, I like that it's not always easy to find chests or destructable things. It just adds a little mystery to the environment and rewards people who take the time to really look. In any case I haven't had an issue seeing anything yet...

I also would like the story to be fleshed out more. It's a very cool setting, and I think quite unique. This is also where I think sea is a bit hard on the game, I personally feel the setting makes the game very original and creative in of itself. It's not typical fantasy, and it's not historical mythology which are the two other games to compare it to. I think it's really refreshing.

Loving it so far tbh, my wife is super jealous that it's not on mac muahaha

 

[Sensuki]

Yeah I actually like the obscurity of containers and stuff too. It's something I sorely miss from older games.

People today go nuts if something isn't obvious in the game world

 

[sea]

Well the game already has shortcuts and secrets to find. There is a difference between missing obvious containers due to lack of visibility or because it just happens to be nighttime, and missing stuff because it's actually meant to be hidden.

From sea preview, it appears that it is impossible or very hard to run around with a ranged character avoiding most enemies all the time, it they don't change it, it could mean massive . Ranged characters have a massive advantage in those kinds of games because for some reason the players is always the fastest guy around.

True. Enemies are fast, not quite as fast as you, but still quite quick, and pretty numerous. You can probably kite past everyone if you are really good at it and in one of the overland wilderness areas, but I have a feeling you'd eventually reach a choke point or indoor level and would get cornered and torn apart.

As a ranged character you have to constantly be on the move (same with melee, really, just less so), and you have to plant your feet to shoot at enemies. At best you have some area-of-effect attacks with cooldowns. Ranged weaponry is all single-target, and the multi-target stuff is mostly confined to spells or melee abilities. No "fire 30 arrows at once + stun + knockback" Amazon-type stuff like in Diablo II.

 

[DeepOcean]

No "fire 30 arrows at once + stun + knockback" Amazon-type stuff like in Diablo II.

This reason alone is enough to say that this game could be much better than other Diablo Clones.

 

[Cursed Platypus]

sea Nice preview.
Reading the conclusion, I believe you and others might be interrested by this thread I made 2 weeks ago on their forums.

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8364

which got quite a long answer from the devellopers at page 2 and 3, which means it's an important issue for them.

Is Grim Dawn really an Open World Hack and Slash?

The answer to this question is sort of complicated because there are a few different factors involved in shaping what we planned, what we have and what we will have in terms of open world, factions and quest choices. The short answer is that the later areas will have more than the starting area but probably less than you imagined if you're thinking Skyrim.

It isn't feasible for us to try to something on the scale of Skyrim and I think some of the openness and quest design that works in Skyrim would conflict with the type of progression people want to see in an ARPG. So, we never set out to make Skyrim the ARPG but we do hope to do a lot more with factions, quest choices and the ability for multi-directional progression in the world.

Coming from TQ, which had very linear quest and level design and looking at D3, which is also fairly linear and has a lot of quest gating, we wanted to do something with much broader levels that interconnected in different ways and where there are minimal quest gating. We also want to have later areas that you can open up in different order and more quests that you find out in the world and can complete in different ways; some of which will have consequences.

What we have now for alpha is less than we expect for the final game, partially due to it being alpha and partially due to design considerations. We originally had a more open design for the beginning of the game but in internal testing we found that it didn't work well to thrust people right into that. The early game is a time when people are becoming acquainted with the systems, not paying a lot of attention to quest instructions because they're eager to get into the action and also leveling quickly.

So, partially the alpha area use of factions and quest choices is more limited because we found these systems needed more work and then once they were more fleshed out, we didn't have time to fully leverage their capabilities in the alpha. We had also intended for people to be able to open up some other areas (the other bridges out of town) without having killed the Warden but those areas aren't done yet. Some of the more sandbox type stuff that we wanted to do, we've found has been more difficult to implement than we thought, mainly just in terms of running into design and logic problems where things can break or become imbalanced if people totally skip stuff or do it in reverse orders. We're learning a lot about how to better implement these things though.

In terms of design considerations, I think it makes more sense to hold back on lateral exploration into new areas until the level progression has slowed a little, like 15-20ish, so that people can feel like when they enter new areas, that they're entering a challenging location with an increased level of danger and also to make scaling easier. It would be a lot of extra work and I think also result in sort of flat progression if every part of the world could scale from level 1 to the level cap.

In conclusion, I'd say that you can expect things to open up more in later areas, you can expect factions to play a greater role and to have more meaningful quest choices. I think we may also try to go back at the end of development to tweak the alpha area to give it more of that as well. There are still limits to what we can probably hope to achieve if we want to get the game finished in a reasonable time-frame but we should be able to do more and more of this as we continue development in patches and expansions. I've been trying to leave places in the levels where we can easily add-on new areas throughout the world with future content releases.

I'd also say that it is tough to convey your exact intentions in a 1-line marketing phrase and I think the ambiguity leaves different people to imagine different things. To me, Grim Dawn is much more open and flexible with its broad levels and ability to skip almost all the quests than Titan Quest and I hope we can take it even further in future areas but we're not going to be able to reach Skyrim level of openness and quest choice while still trying to craft great core ARPG mechanics like character, item and enemy progression.

Edit: Oops - another page of posts appeared, since it started replying ... and

ninja'ed by the boss​

.

Quote:​

Originally Posted by Debile ​

​

I was reading about factions, and open world, I imagined wandering around the vast world, hanging around different towns/hub solving complex quest in different ways (choices and consequences), siding with different factions, fighting others, all this in a dynamically changing World.​

[...] Will it be as I Imagined it would be?​

Feedback from last winter:

Quote:​

Originally Posted by medierra ​

​

[The starting (alpha) area] does progress in one direction toward Burrwitch Village. We didn't want to immediately overwhelm players with a totally open landmass that stretched in all directions and that wouldn't have been very suitable for this style of game where you are essentially progressing forward into increasingly higher level areas and wanting to encounter new enemies and environments. So the way we've retained some of that structure while allowing the player freedom to go in different directions is to have different areas that branch off from starting town that the player can open after meeting certain open-ended requirements - namely, gather the requisite materials to fix the bridges in whatever order they choose. Also, from Burrwitch Village, which is at the end of the alpha area, it will open up more, branching off in different directions. So as you play, you'll have more and more options as to where you can go.​

Quote:​

Originally Posted by medierra ​

​

We do have factions, although we haven't gotten to the point yet where we've been able to implement additional human factions beyond the survivors in Devil's Crossing and enemy groups who will sometimes fight one another. Once we get to building some of the further out survivor enclaves, then we'll get to do more interesting stuff with faction tech.​

Recent feedback:

Quote:​

Originally Posted by medierra ​

​

I'd also like to say that while we started development three years ago, it was with only two full-time people. We spent most of that time getting the core gameplay working, adding features, developing the fiction and creating some of the basic art. Production only really kicked into high gear (high gear for us, although we still only have 6 people) after the Kickstarter. Even so, we were still working out the kinks in the quest system and getting a lot of the core content like common items, randomized affixes, the first three skill classes, etc, finished.​

We're now at a point where we can invest more of our time into expanding the world vs. getting the basics working. So, development from this point forward won't happen instantly but it will happen a lot faster then it has in the past. We know people are eager for additional content and we're working hard to deliver it.​

On a side note, can one go as far as go into a town and some kill NPCs (or get killed in the process) or this an example of what would not be compatible with the current direction of GD.

I'm actually not sure either. I think this would be awesome to allow but currently there are some technical limitations that make it difficult. The big one is that quest NPCs and merchants cannot fight and for reasons I don't even fully understand, apparently it is not easy to build that capability into them. So, our current hacky solution is to swap them out with a "guard" version so that they can fight. This works well enough to allow us to have individual NPCs go from dialog to combat but it probably wouldn't work well for a whole town. It would become even more complicated in multipler if one person had good standing with a faction but the other was hated since we couldn't have merchants that were able to sell stuff to one player while attacking the other because transitioning them back and forth wouldn't work well... if at all.

That said, I think we may be able to certain survivor outposts that are less critical to the story, that we specifically design so that you could go hostile with them.

In the future we may also be able to change the tech so that transitioning NPCs between vendors / dialog and combat isn't a problem. So, I can't guarantee anything here but it is something we're interested in doing.

 

[Cynic]

After a very short period of play time, it feels very open for the genre. I can wander into areas that I haven't been given quests for, deviating from whatever path I've been given. The maps are far from corridors, there are wide sprawling areas to explore.

I'll just say this right off the bat, this already feels better than Diablo 3. A great deal better.

 

[St. Toxic]

Ranged char felt pretty easy though. I don't think I've taken any damage yet.

 

[Cynic]

Yeah I have to say, I'm playing a soldier (haven't gotten to choose second mastery yet), I'm level 9 and I'm switching between ranged and melee constantly. Ranged definitely feels easier. Just beat the "Vile Corruptor" to complete the water purification quest, and that shit would have been impossible without kiting the crap outta that dude. It was still fun though, kept me on my toes as the guy was pretty smart, wouldn't move past a choke point where his skills were most effective. I think melee needs some way to tank more, maybe I've just not allocated my skills optimally.

 

[St. Toxic]

Needs more

to make kiting more difficult.

 

[Mastermind]

Yeah I have to say, I'm playing a soldier (haven't gotten to choose second mastery yet), I'm level 9 and I'm switching between ranged and melee constantly. Ranged definitely feels easier. Just beat the "Vile Corruptor" to complete the water purification quest, and that shit would have been impossible without kiting the crap outta that dude. It was still fun though, kept me on my toes as the guy was pretty smart, wouldn't move past a choke point where his skills were most effective. I think melee needs some way to tank more, maybe I've just not allocated my skills optimally.

The skill trees look shittier than Titan Quest, where they were vital to making a build with good defense (and good defense was vital in TQ). Good items were vital too. Given that it's just an alpha I'm not surprised the game suffers on that front.

This reason alone is enough to say that this game could be much better than other Diablo Clones.

I can't think of any diablo clone that lets you spam aoe attacks other than... titan quest, ironically enough. If GD lets you reach -100% recharge (which I hope it does) then lobbing grenades machinegun style will be a viable build.

 

[Cynic]

I'm not entirely sure why each skill has SO many levels to put points into. Like one of the skills can be levelled to level 16. I think this kind of discourages build diversity because I look at the skill I really like and I think "hey I want to make this my kick ass skill". But then if I spend all my points in it, I can't get other skills, which will end up making my bro kind of boring to play. I guess that's why they have a way to undo points allocations in case you fuck up, but still...it seems a little strange that I only get 3 points per level and to get a maxed out skill I need to spend 16 potential levels on it. I think they should maybe should slow levelling a bit and require less points to max out a skill. That way there'll be less chance of creating a boring character.

 

[DeepOcean]

I can't think of any diablo clone that lets you spam aoe attacks other than... titan quest, ironically enough. If GD lets you reach -100% recharge (which I hope it does) then lobbing grenades machinegun style will be a viable build.

It could be that I just sucks at Diablo clones build building but I gave up playing Torchlight 2, for example, because the ranged orientated classes are so powerful, specially at higher difficulties that I just spammed ranged attacks and kited non-stop, most enemies didn't had any chance so it became very boring while melee builds take alot more punishment and were way more challenging to play. I just played mainly melee builds and specially the Berserker class but couldn't stand playing any ranged class.

 

[Aothan]

I don't mind the disparity between ranged and melee if melee with primarily single target focus can still become reasonably viable with a modest combination of skill and persistence. However, implications for ranged classes that don't specialise on single-click screen engulfing skills that surpass any focus on my target specific skills can also present a detraction from gameplay, since I also generally enjoy a similar playstyle for ranged classes as well. Whilst such a character may never match a typical area of effect or wide-arc skillset ideally they can nonetheless improve and gradually advance into the later stages or areas of an arpg. The description of skills having timed properties and maybe even trajectory aiming could suggest the possibility of intricate playing for those interested to refine specific skills and overall character technique. If that is generally true of the game's design then it could well direct the genre into a slightly more player skill orientated form of play. I'm also curious about how the description of character momentum affecting movement and perhaps more subtle controls extends to other aspects of the game, assuming hopefully enough that mechanic will be of some relevance.

all in all though, most of what has been reported of Grim Dawn sounds promising enough, although I was recently told there won't be any closed online servers such as with their preceding game Titan Quest. Which is rather perplexing given how it was that previous omission which most likely contributed to Titan Quest's limited success.

 

[DeepOcean]

I don't mind the disparity between ranged and melee if melee with primarily single target focus can still become reasonably viable with a modest combination of skill and persistence. However, implications for ranged classes that don't specialise on single-click screen engulfing skills that surpass any focus on my target specific skills can also present a detraction from gameplay, since I also generally enjoy a similar playstyle for ranged classes as well. Whilst such a character may never match a typical area of effect or wide-arc skillset ideally they can nonetheless improve and gradually advance into the later stages or areas of an arpg. The description of skills having timed properties and maybe even trajectory aiming could suggest the possibility of intricate playing for those interested to refine specific skills and overall character technique. If that is generally true of the game's design then it could well direct the genre into a slightly more player skill orientated form of play. I'm also curious about how the description of character momentum affecting movement and perhaps more subtle controls extends to other aspects of the game, assuming hopefully enough that mechanic will be of some relevance.

all in all though, most of what has been reported of Grim Dawn sounds promising enough, although I was recently told there won't be any closed online servers such as with their preceding game Titan Quest. Which is rather perplexing given how it was that previous omission which most likely contributed to Titan Quest's limited success.

I don't mind ranged characters as well but what I really want is some more complexity than just clicking on a spot and boom enemy dead by deadly lasers of doom, the movement delay thing, the necessity of stop moving for a moment to fire and attacks being projectiles instead of hitscan attacks are all huge potential for incline, after some point all Diablo Clones become loot whoring games (there is no problem in that) but a combat system that can turn the combat mechanics interesting in themselves to the point of you killing shit because it is fun to kill shit and not only because you want a hat with a name in golden letters.

 

[Mastermind]

I'm not entirely sure why each skill has SO many levels to put points into. Like one of the skills can be levelled to level 16. I think this kind of discourages build diversity because I look at the skill I really like and I think "hey I want to make this my kick ass skill". But then if I spend all my points in it, I can't get other skills, which will end up making my bro kind of boring to play. I guess that's why they have a way to undo points allocations in case you fuck up, but still...it seems a little strange that I only get 3 points per level and to get a maxed out skill I need to spend 16 potential levels on it. I think they should maybe should slow levelling a bit and require less points to max out a skill. That way there'll be less chance of creating a boring character.

TQ had skills with 16 point max but you could still get some reasonable variety out of it. This is the beta, so there are more levels (and skills to go with it). What horrified me more were the 45 mastery points needed to get the top skills. I thought the 32 in TQ were kind of excessive. Especially since GD's supposed to be smaller.

 

[Mastermind]

I can't think of any diablo clone that lets you spam aoe attacks other than... titan quest, ironically enough. If GD lets you reach -100% recharge (which I hope it does) then lobbing grenades machinegun style will be a viable build.

It could be that I just sucks at Diablo clones build building but I gave up playing Torchlight 2, for example, because the ranged orientated classes are so powerful, specially at higher difficulties that I just spammed ranged attacks and kited non-stop, most enemies didn't had any chance so it became very boring while melee builds take alot more punishment and were way more challenging to play. I just played mainly melee builds and specially the Berserker class but couldn't stand playing any ranged class.

I think the issue most people have with melee characters is that they're used to dumping almost everything in offense when playing a ranged one and just rely on kiting to keep them alive and think they can get away with doing that in melee too. I tend to keep that in mind so for the most part my melee characters aren't a lot harder to play than my ranged ones, they just need better planning.

 

[abija]

I can't think of any diablo clone that lets you spam aoe attacks other than... titan quest, ironically enough.

Huh? At least the "big" ones all do (d2 and 3, tl1 and 2, poe... take your pick).

 

[Mastermind]

I can't think of any diablo clone that lets you spam aoe attacks other than... titan quest, ironically enough.

Huh? At least the "big" ones all do (d2 and 3, tl1 and 2, poe... take your pick).

Yeah come to think of it you're right (though I don't consider sequels clones, particularly since most diablo clones are clones of d2 rather than d1), but most of them also have spammable melee aoe so it's not unique to ranged characters. GD wise, gave the soldier class a try, it has a spammable AOE. And the eyball thing looks like it turns into one as well (though neither is particularly powerful).