Vapourware Greed Monger Insider Thread (drama inside)

[set]

The tl;dr is you have project leads without any discipline and a lot of funding going to their head. The end result is a mess - arrogance and incompetence. Sounds like they don't even have a concrete engine nevermind do they have any actual content.

If they even were to have a "perfect engine" materialize out of thin air, they wouldn't have the discipline to make any content worth talking about.

 

[DarKPenguiN]

[12/19/2012 11:36:59 PM] Jason Appleton: Let me ask you what you think about this...He said it would take a month to do this. He's got half of it done in 2 days. I'm not sure if its because he already had the system or if it just didn't take near as long to do and he hustled me. What do you think?

 

[GM_JamesPro]

[12/19/2012 11:36:59 PM] Jason Appleton: Let me ask you what you think about this...He said it would take a month to do this. He's got half of it done in 2 days. I'm not sure if its because he already had the system or if it just didn't take near as long to do and he hustled me. What do you think?

The Combat System this post was talking about was never completed to our Specs... There were several things we requested that were never added in... And what was there was kind of clunky to try and use.

 

[DarKPenguiN]

[12/19/2012 11:36:59 PM] Jason Appleton: Let me ask you what you think about this...He said it would take a month to do this. He's got half of it done in 2 days. I'm not sure if its because he already had the system or if it just didn't take near as long to do and he hustled me. What do you think?

The Combat System this post was talking about was never completed to our Specs... There were several things we requested that were never added in... And what was there was kind of clunky to try and use.

Oh, im sure. James, im not trying to knock the job you did.

I thought it was funny he evidently was dropping money without knowing the value of what he was buying- hence him wondering if he'd been hustled. I would think in the position jason was in he would already have a basic grasp of time estimates and values oif whatever it is he was purchasing or having contracted for him.

Like, it just shows how much reality based thought and planning went into this...

It is a clusterfuck.

Reading what I have here I think pretty well establishes that GM really wasnt an outright scam. Terribly mismanaged.

 

[DarKPenguiN]

From Facebook- https://www.facebook.com/greedmongermmo


GreedMonger
9 hrs ·


Looks like I've been completely duped. After being asked by James to purchase the Voxel Farm system to enable him to get GM ready to launch an alpha, and then told it wouldn't work, I am alerted to James saying hes done with GM, hes locked me out of my own forums and hes using everything hes done while using all of my money, servers and everything I've paid for to try and launch his own game. He is now ignoring my messages. I will be posted all of our skype chats and facebook...

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• Most Relevant
  5 people like this.
• 
  Wesley Herremanshonestly Jason he's probably going to succeed in gaining more support than you. You didn't really make an effort for people to like you now did you? He actually communicated with the backers while you kept silent.
  
  I'm not saying that I believe all the stuff he's spewing around at the moment. I'm also not saying that I don't believe it. But I think a lot of people will believe him, just because he's been communicative with us.
  Like · Reply · 8 hrs · Edited
  • 
    GreedMongerI let him be the good guy because people did support him so I took a back seat. I took the blame for everything for him this entire time. As long as he was making progress, I supported him with everything and anything he asked for an needed.
    Like · 8 hrs
  • 
    Jim Proctorumm... Jason you WERE to blame for the PR mess it's not just a matter of taking the blame... We had a manageable situation until you went and threatened to file lawsuits against people. Then you had the nerve to Threaten me as well because I felt it my time to leave... Heck you even had the nerve to threaten me today which was to be expected.
    Like · 6 hrs
  • 
    Laura WampflerRight...you made him take all the blame. He was the public face.
    Like · 6 hrs
• 
  Aaron VictoriaDamn this pains me to read. I was the first person that leaped in to help you with GreedMonger, but you weren't patient enough to wait on my studio to prepare things for you. You rushed to get to Kickstarter against my more education suggestions, and I didn't hear from you afterwards. I had a full, well-developed MMO tech with nearly 6 years of development behind it, and it would have made a solid foundation for Greedmonger. Now it's being licensed to several teams in our company, 2 of which are negotiating funding with our new investment partners right now, and a third project which has been Greenlit and going up for funding on Steam at the end of this year.
  
  I can only imagine how pissed off and frustrated you are right now. When all things have calmed, try to take this moment as a lesson. Don't allow it to fill you with absolute rage and blindness. Instead, take into consideration all the faults and all the success, and use them for future endeavors. As someone that has worked commercially on security/networking solutions, I know exactly what it takes to build an MMO. It requires lots of patience, lots of technical knowledge, and lots of organized and directed financing.
  
  I'm always around if you need to talk Jason. You owe it to your investors to turn this thing around, Look at what my company has done for Valiance Online, Project: Gorgon, and Legends of Etherell: Antavia, and you'll see that we're a pretty established little indie studio. Don't let your backers down, it's completely unacceptable. This isn't impossible to fix, trust me. Message me if you're interested in my help.
  Like · Reply · 3 · 5 hrs
• 
  Laura WampflerYou are piece of work, Jason. Taking advantage of someone like that. I warn my kids about people like you. Too bad too, GM seemed like a promising game.
  Like · Reply · 2 · 8 hrs
  • 7 Replies · 5 hrs
• 
  Rusty BresslerI have no idea about anyone involved with this game but sounds like greedmonger was a good name for the game.
  Like · Reply · 2 · 7 hrs
• 
  Josh BarrettI love how the only thing your willing to to take responsibility for is "trusting James", as if your just another victim. What a scam artist.
  
  So your excuse logically is "I got someone to do it for me, while I'm on TV banging the neighbors and opening clubs, how could it be me?"
  
  Come on.
  Like · Reply · 8 hrs · Edited
  • 2 Replies · 5 hrs
• 
  Josh BarrettYour a real bastard Jason.
  Like · Reply · 8 hrs
  • 3 Replies · 7 hrs
• 
  Dylan UnderhillOkay for someone who kickstartered round one, got a substantial package, and hasn't been keeping up to date with development. What's gone on here? Any quick summary?
  Like · Reply · 2 hrs
• 
  Jeff ClarkI am on your side Jason Appleton. This so called programmer is very incompetent and milked you for assets for his own project. I called him out several times and his explanations were hilarious.
  Like · Reply · 6 hrs
• 
  Drecksack L Der BetrügerOoh... All that stress... Might be time to borrow the neighbors wife bro!
  Like · Reply · 1 · 6 hrs
• 
  Casey Shortat least there are peaple liek those making divergence
  Like · Reply · 6 hrs
• 
  David AnstisMan, I sure did learn a good lesson from throwing money at this failure of a cluster fuck
  Like · Reply · 7 hrs
• 
  Arto LaaksoThe plot thickens. Silence has been broken.
  Like · Reply · 8 hrs
• 
  Casey Shortwish i had the money back to invest in something real likeDivergence Online
  Like · Reply · 1 · 6 hrs

EDIT- user error in copy/pasting facebook. Rolled a 1. I dont know wtf I did here but its not working right. Just go there I suppose, probably be interesting by the weeks end.

 

[EJoe]

I LOL so hard the chart part with Steven Davis...


I don't know who is scamming who...



[12/6/2012 2:07:07 PM] James Proctor: lol We should see if Steven can do some higher quality Animations... The ones we have aren't that great they do work with her though...


[1/12/2013 9:57:25 PM] Jason Appleton: [8:53:11 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): I have exported several characters and weapons
[8:54:01 PM] Jason Appleton: out of the hundreds there are, I'm looking for exact numbers. How many were you able to do in the 24 hours since you started? I'm trying to get an idea as to what you are capable of
[8:55:46 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): looking now
[8:56:58 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): 50 models so far
[1/12/2013 9:57:28 PM] Jason Appleton: is that accurate?
[1/12/2013 9:58:16 PM] James Proctor: I can't say because I don't know if he's uploaded them all to the asset server. I can check how many are on the asset server.
[1/12/2013 9:58:41 PM] Jason Appleton: yes please
[1/12/2013 9:59:30 PM] James Proctor: There are 11 on the asset server. Tell him to upload them all.
[1/12/2013 10:01:40 PM] Jason Appleton: I just think hes kind of a con man
[1/12/2013 10:04:10 PM] Jason Appleton: He asked me yesterday if I would pay him to export everything and I said I would think about it as I had other things to deal with. He said he wanted to get started for free because he owed me from pre-paying him before for stuff he never did. I said sure. Now, 24 hours later hes asking for money, says he did 50 models but there are only 11. I asked him to go ahead and upload the ones hes done because I want to make sure hes being honest so I know I can trust him to do the rest with pay. He then asked if he could continue experting others first before syncing
[1/12/2013 10:05:55 PM] Jason Appleton: this guy has yet to finish anything hes been paid to do, for some reason you keep preaching about how great he is yet, hes done nothing to deserve the praise or pay. Hes screwed others in the past as has been shown on the forums and I keep trying to give him chances, but hes just shady to me bro
[1/12/2013 10:22:01 PM] James Proctor: Ok just tell him we really need him to upload them now.
[1/12/2013 10:35:36 PM] Jason Appleton: hes trying to charge me $700-$800 to convert everything
[1/12/2013 10:36:46 PM] James Proctor: Really if he were to follow through that wouldn't be much considering the amount we have to be converted and alot of the models will have changes that will need to be made to be converted and everything...
[1/12/2013 10:37:13 PM] James Proctor: It's a lengthy process...
[1/12/2013 10:37:20 PM] Jason Appleton: what I KNOW will happen, is even if I were to agree, he will just be asking for more in a week
[1/12/2013 10:38:00 PM] Jason Appleton: I'm offering $500
[1/12/2013 10:38:00 PM] James Proctor: Put something in writing that you both agree to and stick with it.
[1/12/2013 10:39:33 PM] Jason Appleton: [9:22:14 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): ok let me see whats left...
[9:23:17 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): 128 left... added to what I already have... and thats not even accurate because there are no telling what one Unity package contains
[9:26:38 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): Also just so you understand it more than just hitting the "export" button.... I have to convert all the textures, apply it in maya with Hero mat, adjust position of model in maya and then export, also it has to be saved in specific folders, etc...
[9:35:07 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): I think its worth about $700-800... this will take at least 2 weeks imo
[9:37:34 PM] Jason Appleton: I would be willing to pay $500 when its all finished
[9:37:41 PM] Jason Appleton: I know I can get it done for $500
[9:37:56 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): Ok but i need something down
[9:38:05 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): and
[9:38:18 PM] Jason Appleton: So you went from owing me to wanting something down?
[9:38:48 PM] Jason Appleton: pre-paying for work hasnt worked out so well
[9:38:54 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): Ive done free work... I cant wait 2 weeks
[9:39:06 PM] Jason Appleton: get it done sooner?
[9:39:24 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): i need to pay my bill or I wont have internet
[1/12/2013 10:41:04 PM] James Proctor: He's used that accuse about loosing his internet in the past...
[1/12/2013 10:41:11 PM] Jason Appleton: yup
[1/12/2013 10:42:47 PM] James Proctor: I don't know... It's your call. I'll support whatever you want to do. If you choose to let him go I know I'll hear about it but like I said I'll support your choice.
[1/12/2013 10:42:52 PM] Jason Appleton: [9:40:27 PM] Jason Appleton: what are you expecting up front? I have NO gaurantee that you will finish. I can't afford to have you flake out or quit.
[9:42:00 PM] Jason Appleton: How much have I paid you already? $300? $400?
[9:42:08 PM] Jason Appleton: What do I have to show for it so far?
[9:42:22 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): Im not going to quit... im dont flake out.. I need half down and the rest when I have done every asset that can be done..
[9:42:31 PM] Jason Appleton: not gonna happen bro
[1/12/2013 10:43:17 PM] Jason Appleton: [Saturday, January 12, 2013 10:43 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist):

<<< so after all the work I have done you dont want to pay me?
[1/12/2013 10:47:00 PM] Jason Appleton: [9:43:25 PM] Jason Appleton: how much have I paid you?
[9:43:44 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): $300 and then you bought a statue head... thats it
[9:43:57 PM] Jason Appleton: and for that $300, what do I have to show for it?
[9:44:07 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): I made you a character model...
[9:44:13 PM] Jason Appleton: a little statue of a gravestone?
[9:44:19 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): yeah that too
[9:44:24 PM] Jason Appleton: a character model we couldn't use
[9:44:46 PM] Jason Appleton: I mean look bro, I keep trying to give you chances to help out but you ask for too much and o too little
[9:45:13 PM] Jason Appleton: you go from owing me, to me owing you over night with 11 models converted
[9:45:25 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): ive done more than 11...
[9:45:28 PM] Jason Appleton: I'm not a bank, I'm an employer with goals that need to be met.
[9:45:31 PM] Jason Appleton: I see 11
[9:45:39 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist): so now Im a liar?
[9:46:09 PM] Jason Appleton: I dont know, are you? You said you've done 50 but only have 11. I asked you to upload the rest and you basically said no
Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist)
[1/12/2013 10:47:18 PM] Jason Appleton: [Saturday, January 12, 2013 10:46 PM] Steven Davis (Animator/3d Artist):





Steven Davis
http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/apprenticeneauxs-steven-davis-scammer-in-unity-forum.164790/

Hello Unity Community,

I just wanted to make you all aware of a Steven Davis goes by Alias "Apprenticeneauxs" on Unity Forums.
http://forum.unity3d.com/members/5827-Apprenticeneauxsemails two days ago asking for full payment for the animation work without first asking me what I thought about

Simply put he is a Scammer, I hired him for Animation Work for a Character Model... and he sent me like 3 the work.

After Reviewing his work, most of it was very bad... I asked him to Redo it... then this evening while on Skype he tells me that the price for the work is $200 - $250 when we originally agreed to $170, $50 for a New Rig that the Model Supposedly Needed, and $100 for the Animation work.

Now he is tell me I owe him $200 - $250 for the Animations... I quickly blocked him and rejected further communication with him.

Please Note, Steven Davis seems to have a Record of Scamming people on the Unity Forums. Please Refer to the following Link below from another user who seems to have gotten ripped off. http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/143183-We-were-deceived.

Lucky for me I did Not Pay him what he was asking for, as he totally disregarded our Agreement, and did not Discuss with me early on that he would alter the final price at the last minute which he was attempting to do now.

Beware of Steven Davis, Alias "Apprenticeneauxs"

 

[DarkUnderlord]

So... the game is called "Greed Monger", right?

I think I've got that much so far.

 

[gestalt11]

DP,
The reason you are confused whether it was a scam or just incompetence is because its both.

This might sound crazy. Probably because it is. This is because Jason Appleton is obviously someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. His entire life is a scam. But "it's not a lie if you believe it, Jerry".

Dealing with these people can be very confusing. This is because they are constantly rewriting "reality" to readjust things to be more favorable. They both believe false things but also simultaneously manipulate, bully and cajole everyone around them into these ever cascading iterations of "reality" designed to prop themselves up. Weirdly even though they are often obvious bullies you get a weird phenomenon of people making excsues for them. Most bullies are also cowards, but these guys its really hard to figure which way they will jump, if they get it into their head that you standing up to them somehow threatens whatever weird fantasy of self-importance and super-heroic-ness they can go in any direction.

Case in point, he genuinely thinks he can read gamasutra articles about how long it takes to do development to refute someone who is actually doing development work. This is of course risable on its face, but to these types of people because they are so awesome they are able to do it, at least in their minds. This then fails and they blame someone else, by bullying and lying (except they often believe their own lies by "misremembering"). It is often the case when something fails they pin the blame on the very person who told them it wouldn't work, this is a mechanically easy "misremember" especially since they tend to try to gloss over everything so they can never really be pinned down to make this sort of behavior even more fluid and easy.

See, since he is so awesome, he can do stuff like that. Maybe normal plebes need to do stuff like actually plot things out. But not him, he will just make it work through his herculean vague awesomeness. This is one of the common threads of the Narcissist and why they almost all invariably fail rather spectacularly. Fortunately there is always someone else to blame. Ah one of the other pillars of the Narcissist. They skate by on crap and make it all work by lying to themselves and manipulating and bullying everyone around them. On some level they know they do it, and on another they really believe they are just that awesome.

As you read through his various craziness (and JamesP thinks back on things over time) you may get the feeling that as you "stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you" causing a depressed or just a general WTF this unreality is making my brain shutdown. You may start down the path of asking "Hold on, he is obviously not this stupid, yet he is this stupid" making your brain want to explode.

If you take a step back and realize that everything has its genesis from this one thing, it will start to make an odd amount of sense and provide some relief from the "my brain wants to explode from this contradicton" feeling. If not you may find it becomes actually, mmmm I dunno the word, disturbing? Or possibly it will drag you down with it (to some degree). Its the sort of crazy that tries to swallow you into it. It NEEDS you to get down in the mud with it. Now I am not saying don't call Appleton scum, because he is. Just saying when you don't understand someone is a full on Narcissist they have really messed up ways of drawing you into their special brand of crazy.

To JamesP:
Normally I would tell you bullies are cowards, but Narcissists can occasionally be problematic when they get desparate and people are not dancing to the way they pull the strings. His legal threats sound like BS. He will bully you with absolutely anything he can think of no matter how outlandish. This sounds like his goto method of manipulation along with the standard Narcissist editing of "reality". But unlike the normal coward bully who does it for the power trip a Narcissist can become desparate when their choice method of manipulation fails. This can make them unpredicatable and possibly actually aggressive rather than merely threatening which they do regularly.

No matter what they literally have to try to make everyone around them as crazy as they are. Generally they will use that chaos to paint you as crazy. Partly because this is effective, but mostly because they actually need to believe it to maintain their own illusions. They can also sometimes have strange ideas about ownership if it is somehow wrapped up in their self-worth.

Don't try to make sense of it just get away with as clean a break as you can, dictate terms and don't argue with them.

 

[DarKPenguiN]

...Dark Underlord is gracing us with his presence?
/bow

JamesP- dude, I think you could actually do a kickstarter for a tell all book that would capitalize on jasons new swinger reality TV fame.maybe some interviews with E or something?

 

[Norfleet]

Half done in 2 days, month to finish sounds normal to me. Last 10% always takes 90% of the time.

 

[DarKPenguiN]

Half done in 2 days, month to finish sounds normal to me. Last 10% always takes 90% of the time.

Its always the micro issues that get ya.

 

[thesoup]

Not sure if anyone replied to this already, but I believe I speak on behalf of the entire codex if I say

(other than my 15 inch cock)

post pics






nohomo

 

[DarKPenguiN]

DP,
The reason you are confused whether it was a scam or just incompetence is because its both.

This might sound crazy. Probably because it is. This is because Jason Appleton is obviously someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. His entire life is a scam. But "it's not a lie if you believe it, Jerry".

Dealing with these people can be very confusing. This is because they are constantly rewriting "reality" to readjust things to be more favorable. They both believe false things but also simultaneously manipulate, bully and cajole everyone around them into these ever cascading iterations of "reality" designed to prop themselves up. Weirdly even though they are often obvious bullies you get a weird phenomenon of people making excsues for them. Most bullies are also cowards, but these guys its really hard to figure which way they will jump, if they get it into their head that you standing up to them somehow threatens whatever weird fantasy of self-importance and super-heroic-ness they can go in any direction.

Case in point, he genuinely thinks he can read gamasutra articles about how long it takes to do development to refute someone who is actually doing development work. This is of course risable on its face, but to these types of people because they are so awesome they are able to do it, at least in their minds. This then fails and they blame someone else, by bullying and lying (except they often believe their own lies by "misremembering"). It is often the case when something fails they pin the blame on the very person who told them it wouldn't work, this is a mechanically easy "misremember" especially since they tend to try to gloss over everything so they can never really be pinned down to make this sort of behavior even more fluid and easy.

See, since he is so awesome, he can do stuff like that. Maybe normal plebes need to do stuff like actually plot things out. But not him, he will just make it work through his herculean vague awesomeness. This is one of the common threads of the Narcissist and why they almost all invariably fail rather spectacularly. Fortunately there is always someone else to blame. Ah one of the other pillars of the Narcissist. They skate by on crap and make it all work by lying to themselves and manipulating and bullying everyone around them. On some level they know they do it, and on another they really believe they are just that awesome.

As you read through his various craziness (and JamesP thinks back on things over time) you may get the feeling that as you "stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you" causing a depressed or just a general WTF this unreality is making my brain shutdown. You may start down the path of asking "Hold on, he is obviously not this stupid, yet he is this stupid" making your brain want to explode.

If you take a step back and realize that everything has its genesis from this one thing, it will start to make an odd amount of sense and provide some relief from the "my brain wants to explode from this contradicton" feeling. If not you may find it becomes actually, mmmm I dunno the word, disturbing? Or possibly it will drag you down with it (to some degree). Its the sort of crazy that tries to swallow you into it. It NEEDS you to get down in the mud with it. Now I am not saying don't call Appleton scum, because he is. Just saying when you don't understand someone is a full on Narcissist they have really messed up ways of drawing you into their special brand of crazy.

To JamesP:
Normally I would tell you bullies are cowards, but Narcissists can occasionally be problematic when they get desparate and people are not dancing to the way they pull the strings. His legal threats sound like BS. He will bully you with absolutely anything he can think of no matter how outlandish. This sounds like his goto method of manipulation along with the standard Narcissist editing of "reality". But unlike the normal coward bully who does it for the power trip a Narcissist can become desparate when their choice method of manipulation fails. This can make them unpredicatable and possibly actually aggressive rather than merely threatening which they do regularly.

No matter what they literally have to try to make everyone around them as crazy as they are. Generally they will use that chaos to paint you as crazy. Partly because this is effective, but mostly because they actually need to believe it to maintain their own illusions. They can also sometimes have strange ideas about ownership if it is somehow wrapped up in their self-worth.

Don't try to make sense of it just get away with as clean a break as you can, dictate terms and don't argue with them.

...Are we still on the codex?

Wow. Good post. Sounds like Appleton to a T and would explain many of his actions that any normal, rational person would see was PR Suicide. IDK, you are far more knowledgeable than I am concerning the human condition because that was an excellent read.

You should stick around the codex if you can deal with us retards and the neanderthal.

Its the sort of crazy that tries to swallow you into it. It NEEDS you to get down in the mud with it. Now I am not saying don't call Appleton scum, because he is. Just saying when you don't understand someone is a full on Narcissist they have really messed up ways of drawing you into their special brand of crazy.

This is interesting. I full on agree. This shit had been a very long time coming but this isnt me- I can be trollish but i'm not mean spirited. Ive only trolled 1 other person in this manner (who didnt deserve it and it was for the lulz) and its not something I want to enjoy... Because I'm not going to lie, this was immensely enjoyable and gratifying outside the start when I was attacking JP. And I dont want this to be enjoyable because its hateful shit. Even though Appleton deserved it.

I have looked into the Abyss that is Appleton.

But I need to back off the hateful shit unless something drastic changes. I'm satisfied atm that Appleton is now the one totally in charge of GM. From the PR to the hiring, to the development. That he has to face up now to the backers- Its their turn.Plus I got to entertain some of my friends. But, I'm going to try to let go of some of this shit...But yeah...He gets to me. I'm going to keep posting and having some fun but i'm going to be less hateful since it seems I am enjoying it a bit...too much.

/salute

 

[DarKPenguiN]

Not sure if anyone replied to this already, but I believe I speak on behalf of the entire codex if I say

(other than my 15 inch cock)

post pics






nohomo

When My cock is a few inchs bigger we plan on eating him.

 

[EJoe]

I've dealt with MMO tech before.


The whole architecture of GM is totally wrong.


Streaming Terrain nonsense -
All this bull-crap about buying dozens of servers is because they need to spawn a headless copy of Unity. It is same for all, except for true MMO games where the AI is run dedicated.

Thus, for that stupid GM game, for each terrain = 1 session on server. So for the thousands of land parcels = thousands of headless Unity sessions.

Each Unity session will consume hundreds of MBs and needs to be distributed across hundreds of servers. (Hence, the reasoning for sever farm).

If they used a real MMO solution, they could fit the whole MMO on less than 1 server.

All this talk about seem-less terrain is that huge landmasses across servers have corners where mobs have to go across corners of scenes to chase player. So it cannot be seemless for that reason.


Area of Interest -
The last iteration of game, notice the YouTube video where enemies chase player to end of scene.
The AOI, terrain streaming (or claims of streaming) were never done. AOI should have been done first. Without that, all this terrain streaming is nonsense.

If the MMO don't know where player is, how can it show 'interesting things' to player? Makes no sense.


Area of Interest in Sant's Row.
http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/gdc07/slides/S3741i1.pdf

That PDF is huge and complex system to stream terrain data.


Bad frame-rate nonsense -
Get real professional modelers, not a scam-artist. LOL

It looks like no LOD, bad choice of shaders, no fog of war to hide background when too far away....



Combat... not done from looks of it.
Housing... if they change to some other game-server, it looks like full rewrite. LOL



The whole game is nonsense.

 

[Desktop Commander]

http://www.mmorpgitalia.it/2015/04/03/greed-monger-che-lo-scam-sia-con-voi/

Looks like the Italians picked this up... I cannot read italian but I recognize the word "scam" when I see it. Now that Italians know, our work here is done.

Spoiler

..Not really.

A bit late on this but this article seems to sum up the whole thing rather well and in a concise manner, so for anyone who doesn't want to wade through the Google translated mess:

Article seems to have a generally negative tone wrt. the Kickstarter craze (probably in combination with fatigue regarding all those early access half-games that end up not fulfilling even half their initial promises as well; the term 'pseudo game' is used) and sees the project as a mostly derivative MMO that wouldn't have been anything to write home about, even if it were to be eventually completed (apart from the own your own land aspect, which is apparently the game's most defining feature but not enough to make it rise above its competition).

The article doesn't say much about Appleton and is mostly asking the more broad question of what Kickstarter intends to do, since this is not the first time something like this happened. They do, however, take the blame off GM_JamesPro, calling him a poor guy who, after everyone else of the initial dev team was gone, they somehow got to work on this on his own for 3 years without paying him a single cent (salary-wise I assume), which seems correct from what we have seen so far in this thread.

tl;dr: James got scammed, backers got scammed, people are sick of trainwrecks like this one. Kickstarter guys, do something!

Bonus points for the title of the article, which translates to "Greed Monger, may the scam be with you".:D

 

[EJoe]

@JamesP, my sympathies to you.


All the MMO tech I talk about, if you were a full-time seasoned developer the price is out of reach of an ordinary developer.


This tech costs in excess of US$100,000 and it's by big vendors, not the small puny Unity, Unreal or small game engine nonsense.


As for Greed Monger, I will laugh. The newer scam artists will approach the (GM guy) and a whole round of fooling around will start.

 

[Jools]

This thread is getting more and more strange by the minute

I like that

 

[GM_JamesPro]

I've dealt with MMO tech before.


The whole architecture of GM is totally wrong.


Streaming Terrain nonsense -
All this bull-crap about buying dozens of servers is because they need to spawn a headless copy of Unity. It is same for all, except for true MMO games where the AI is run dedicated.

Thus, for that stupid GM game, for each terrain = 1 session on server. So for the thousands of land parcels = thousands of headless Unity sessions.

Each Unity session will consume hundreds of MBs and needs to be distributed across hundreds of servers. (Hence, the reasoning for sever farm).

If they used a real MMO solution, they could fit the whole MMO on less than 1 server.

All this talk about seem-less terrain is that huge landmasses across servers have corners where mobs have to go across corners of scenes to chase player. So it cannot be seemless for that reason.


Area of Interest -
The last iteration of game, notice the YouTube video where enemies chase player to end of scene.
The AOI, terrain streaming (or claims of streaming) were never done. AOI should have been done first. Without that, all this terrain streaming is nonsense.

If the MMO don't know where player is, how can it show 'interesting things' to player? Makes no sense.


Area of Interest in Sant's Row.
http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/gdc07/slides/S3741i1.pdf

That PDF is huge and complex system to stream terrain data.


Bad frame-rate nonsense -
Get real professional modelers, not a scam-artist. LOL

It looks like no LOD, bad choice of shaders, no fog of war to hide background when too far away....



Combat... not done from looks of it.
Housing... if they change to some other game-server, it looks like full rewrite. LOL



The whole game is nonsense.

Ok let's take this step by step...

Terrain Streaming... UniStream loads in a file based on xml... They are called region files... These region files details the terrain chunk... Here is an example for GM's Prototype World that was going to be released today:

Prototype_x-1_y0.region

Spoiler

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Region Name="Prototype_x-1_y0" Version="1">
<Customs Name="Custom" />
<Statics>
<Static Name="desert_ruins_h1_LOD0">
<Transform Position="(-1274.8, 171.2, 819.8)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0)" Scale="(4.0, 4.0, 4.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="desert_ruins_h1_LOD0" AssetBundle_Name="Desert_Ruins" URL="C:/Assets/Bundles/Desert_Ruins.unity3d" Version="1" />
</Static>
<Static Name="desert_ruins_h3_LOD0">
<Transform Position="(-1249.1, 171.5, 799.2)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.4, 0.0, 0.9)" Scale="(4.0, 4.0, 4.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="desert_ruins_h3_LOD0" AssetBundle_Name="Desert_Ruins" URL="C:/Assets/Bundles/Desert_Ruins.unity3d" Version="1" />
</Static>
<Static Name="desert_ruins_h4_LOD0">
<Transform Position="(-1303.6, 171.3, 847.7)" Rotation="(0.0, -0.9, 0.0, 0.5)" Scale="(4.0, 4.0, 4.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="desert_ruins_h4_LOD0" AssetBundle_Name="Desert_Ruins" URL="C:/Assets/Bundles/Desert_Ruins.unity3d" Version="1" />
</Static>
<Static Name="desert_ruins_h6_LOD0">
<Transform Position="(-1268.7, 171.2, 855.6)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0)" Scale="(6.0, 6.0, 6.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="desert_ruins_h6_LOD0" AssetBundle_Name="Desert_Ruins" URL="C:/Assets/Bundles/Desert_Ruins.unity3d" Version="1" />
</Static>
<Static Name="desert_ruins_h7_LOD0">
<Transform Position="(-1296.7, 171.1, 818.6)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0)" Scale="(4.0, 4.0, 4.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="desert_ruins_h7_LOD0" AssetBundle_Name="Desert_Ruins" URL="C:/Assets/Bundles/Desert_Ruins.unity3d" Version="1" />
</Static>
<Static Name="desert_ruins_h2_LOD0">
<Transform Position="(-1241.9, 171.3, 830.4)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0.9)" Scale="(4.0, 4.0, 4.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="desert_ruins_h2_LOD0" AssetBundle_Name="Desert_Ruins" URL="C:/Assets/Bundles/Desert_Ruins.unity3d" Version="1" />
</Static>
<Static Name="desert_ruins_h8_LOD0">
<Transform Position="(-1263.3, 170.9, 900.8)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0)" Scale="(4.0, 4.0, 4.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="desert_ruins_h8_LOD0" AssetBundle_Name="Desert_Ruins" URL="C:/Assets/Bundles/Desert_Ruins.unity3d" Version="1" />
</Static>
</Statics>
<Terrains>
<Terrain Name="Island45">
<Transform Position="(-2000.0, 0.0, 0.0)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0)" Scale="(1.0, 1.0, 1.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="Island45" AssetBundle_Name="Island5" URL="C:/Assets/Bundles/Island5.unity3d" Version="3" />
</Terrain>
</Terrains>
<Spawns Server="true">
<SpawnPoint Name="Spawn_Zombie_1">
<Transform Position="(-27.5, 202.0, 95.8)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0)" Scale="(5.0, 1.0, 5.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="MobSpawn" AssetBundle_Name="PlayerSpawn" URL="http://www.greedmonger.com/assets/PlayerSpawn.unity3d" Version="2" />
</SpawnPoint>
<SpawnPoint Name="PlayerSpawn">
<Transform Position="(-53.4, 205.8, 29.7)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0)" Scale="(5.0, 1.0, 5.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="PlayerSpawn" AssetBundle_Name="PlayerSpawn" URL="http://www.greedmonger.com/assets/PlayerSpawn.unity3d" Version="2" />
</SpawnPoint>
<SpawnPoint Name="Spawn_Zombie_2">
<Transform Position="(-1092.3, 178.3, 501.8)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0)" Scale="(5.0, 1.0, 5.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="MobSpawn" AssetBundle_Name="PlayerSpawn" URL="http://www.greedmonger.com/assets/PlayerSpawn.unity3d" Version="2" />
</SpawnPoint>
<SpawnPoint Name="Spawn_Bear_1">
<Transform Position="(389.8, 165.4, 1169.2)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0)" Scale="(5.0, 1.0, 5.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="MobSpawn" AssetBundle_Name="PlayerSpawn" URL="http://www.greedmonger.com/assets/PlayerSpawn.unity3d" Version="2" />
</SpawnPoint>
<SpawnPoint Name="Spawn_Bear_2">
<Transform Position="(-592.5, 170.1, 891.2)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0)" Scale="(5.0, 1.0, 5.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="MobSpawn" AssetBundle_Name="PlayerSpawn" URL="http://www.greedmonger.com/assets/PlayerSpawn.unity3d" Version="2" />
</SpawnPoint>
<SpawnPoint Name="Spawn_Troll_1">
<Transform Position="(-585.6, 183.9, 388.9)" Rotation="(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0)" Scale="(5.0, 1.0, 5.0)" />
<Stream Prefab="MobSpawn" AssetBundle_Name="PlayerSpawn" URL="http://www.greedmonger.com/assets/PlayerSpawn.unity3d" Version="2" />
</SpawnPoint>
</Spawns>
</Region>

these region files contains all of the static objects located on the terrain, the Terrain Objects (Can be Unity based Terrain or any sort of Objects used as Terrain), Spawn Points, and still to be implemented Triggers. All of the Objects are streamed into the Client using Asset Bundles. The Client will download the AssetBundles needed and save them to the player's computer after the initial download it will take the version number and decide if the Asset Bundle was updated or not and if it was updated then it will redownload the asset bundle.

UniStream then contains a Region Paging System. It will take the player's position and load in the regions surrounding the player... So as the player is moving around new regions get loaded in and regions no longer needed get deleted. This is ALL implemented in GM and was implemented in the last Video... This is all located Client Side ONLY. The Server actually loaded in the entire world. Less going on on the Server where nothing is rendered or anything so it's capable of having a much larger world loaded in at a time then what the client is able to do.

AOI: AOI was actually implemented... AOI was based on a certain size radius around the player... Any Mobs located with in that radius got rendered and updated on the Client... Any mobs out side of that radius was ignored and not rendered. The AOI was ONLY in effect for Mobs though at the time of the last video.

Performance:
We could use Lods... But the majority of the time the only thing showing were the mobs that could have used Lods... Trees all use Lods automatically using Unity Terrain Foliage System. The House we were too close to most of the time for it to really of taking advantage of Lods... Certainly something to think about for the future for them though.

Combat was implemented though I had actually JUST added the AOI System and Implementing it resulted in breaking the Combat System until I made some modification to it.

 

[DarKPenguiN]

Oh no. tech argument that I wont understand incoming in

10...9...8...

 

[Angthoron]

GM_JamesPro, I'm curious about something - after the KS, how did the fundraised money get used? Did Appleton purchase licenses/hardware etc? Salaries? Outsourcing fees? I saw some money stats in those chat logs, but probably not quite enough to account for the whole amount.

Would you be able to estimate how much money went to the aspects that you could see yourself?

 

[EJoe]

I'm talking about terrain streaming across multiple scenes, the problem you had, not in-game terrain, where you needed that Pikko Sever from uLink.


I think you saw this?
http://playrust.com/friday-devblog-4/


For in-game streaming, that could all be done on server and stream Instantiate or destroy commands linked to either MySQL or MongDB. You have Avatism.

You don't need to create a huge XML file just to show for it...

 

[EJoe]

BTW, JamesP,


I'm not knocking you down. You were one person doing it. Kudos to you for doing so much work.


If Jason didn't pay nor give you a salary to compensate you for your time, you would have essentially worked for free. So sympathies to you for doing so much work without a contract.

 

[Jogobogos]

I remember how angry I was while our Kickstarter failed and one of the reasons was because GreedMonger started a few days after us their campaign.
It was like "We need 60 000£ to finish the fully playable Alpha version of Gloria Victis" when GreedMonger was "We need 30 000$ to finish the game with Estimated delivery: Apr 2013 of the in game rewards (6 months)"

Of course we'v failed to gain this money than while GM gained 3 times more, and (from what I'v heard) another 3 times more from their website.

Where are we now? Have not given up on thegame, which is available to play 24/7 for nearly 2 years now, nearly without budget at all. Of course everything goes a bit slowly since our team is really small and our budget is based only on our website donations but we have updates two times a week most of the time.
Just took out NDA and going to roll into Steam and Alpha (we call it Pre-Alpha to make sure no one will feel misslead its a fully playable game already - its not, but we are doing our best everyday to make it done as fast and polished as possible) which will help us to expand the team and keep things rolling faster

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=225671457


Why I am telling this? For a few reasons.

First of all - Anyone who have finished any game was like 100% sure it won't work for Greed Monger just because of using 100% faked movies and missleading informations from totally beginning.
Shit happens and will happen untill people will start doing something against people who don't have even a bit of respect to them to at least send the T-shirts they paid for, which are lying in the garage for 2 years now.

Second of all - Respect to you James for keeping it that long. Still, I hope you know its impossible to be a only coder in MMO team. When you will have thousand of players logging on every day you will need another coder just for debugging and preparing to fix the hundreds of small bugs every week. I know you have learned much on GM and it will help you in your futher projects. Diamonds are formed under pressure

And at the end - projects like this can be successfull. There are already a few really cool projects which were sentenced to loss from the beggining just by making MMO.

Gloria Victis is one of them, but I would really recommend checking The Repopulation or Life is Feudal (not MMO at this moment, but later will be) also - we are all far from final releases, but all of those games are playable at this moment with a stable and great community/playerbase.

Community/Playerbase is something that gives us strength to work everyday on something really, really hard to accomplish. As a lead I need to be aware of everything that happens in another projects, and I'v been watching GM closely - in my opinion if there would be at least a bit more communication and respect from Jason (who's been paid by those people to create this game and as a leader he's the only responsible to deliver it) the things could happen other way. Half of our team was recruited from our community and are great co-workers now.

Meanwhile, if there are any Greed Monger, Embers of Caerus or another MMORPG Kickstarters backers who were not delivered yet what they paid for please contact me via support@gloriavictisgame.com with showing some proof of your donation for those projects. I will gladly send you invitation into the Gloria Victis hoping that you won't loose believe in Indie Developers.

James - if you will need to talk or any help feel free to contact me via skype. Login is same as my forum nick.

Jason - I really hope I am all wrong and game with be delivered.

 

[DarKPenguiN]

I remember how angry I was while our Kickstarter failed and one of the reasons was because GreedMonger started a few days after us their campaign.
It was like "We need 60 000£ to finish the fully playable Alpha version of Gloria Victis" when GreedMonger was "We need 30 000$ to finish the game with Estimated delivery: Apr 2013 of the in game rewards (6 months)"

Evidently you dont read gamasutra

Of course we'v failed to gain this money than while GM gained 3 times more, and (from what I'v heard) another 3 times more from their website.

Where are we now? Have not given up on thegame, which is available to play 24/7 for nearly 2 years now, nearly without budget at all. Of course everything goes a bit slowly since our team is really small and our budget is based only on our website donations but we have updates two times a week most of the time.
Just took out NDA and going to roll into Steam and Alpha (we call it Pre-Alpha to make sure no one will feel misslead its a fully playable game already - its not, but we are doing our best everyday to make it done as fast and polished as possible) which will help us to expand the team and keep things rolling faster

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=225671457


Why I am telling this? For a few reasons.

First of all - Everyone who have finished any game was like 100% sure it won't work for Greed Monger just because of using 100% faked movies and missleading informations from totally beginning.
Shit happens and will happen untill people will start doing something against people who don't have even a bit of respect to them to at least send the T-shirts they paid for, which are lying in the garage for 2 years now.

Second of all - Respect to you James for keeping it that long. Still, I hope you know its impossible to be a only coder in MMO team. When you will have thousand of players logging on every day you will need another coder just for debugging and preparing to fix the hundreds of small bugs every week. I know you have learned much on GM and it will help you in your futher projects. Diamonds are formed under pressure

And at the end - projects like this can be successfull. There are already a few really cool projects which were sentenced to loss from the beggining just by making MMO.

Gloria Victis is one of them, but I would really recommend checking The Repopulation or Life is Feudal (not MMO at this moment, but later will be) also - we are all far from final releases, but all of those games are playable at this moment with a stable and great community/playerbase.

GreedMonger has not been good for the rep of indie kickstart mmos. It even hurt shards online (first campaign)which was/is a game I support. People literally were saying 'nope, not after the GM disaster' when we were trying to hype it.[

Sucks that this erodes confidence in legit, realistic projects

Community/Playerbase is something that gives us strength to work everyday on something really, really hard to accomplish. As a lead I need to be aware of everything that happens in another projects, and I'v been watching GM closely - in my opinion if there would be at least a bit more communication and respect from Jason (who's been paid by those people to create this game and as a leader he's the only responsible to deliver it) the things could happen other way. Half of our team was recruited from our community and are great co-workers now.

Meanwhile, if there are any Greed Monger, Embers of Caerus or another MMORPG Kickstarters backers who were not delivered yet what they paid for please contact me via support@gloriavictisgame.com with showing some proof of your donation for those projects. I will gladly send you invitation into the Gloria Victis hoping that you won't loose believe in Indie Developers.

James - if you will need to talk or any help feel free to contact me via skype. Login is same as my forum nick.

I really hope I am all wrong and game with be delivered.