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Great job, Bioware!

Xi

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TRS, I don't think I have the stamina to go through this again. Just because you think capitalism is evil, does not mean piracy must therefore be good. I will leave it at that. Btw, fair enough. ;P

Edit: Wow, this has me off on another tangent. I sense a form of behaviorism in what you've said. You define your upbringing in a way that indicates you had to pirate to even get the game, which is interesting. For you, it is a matter of psychological conditioning as a child. You pirated as a child, and seemingly it caused no harm as you could not be a customer, so as you've aged, and purchasing has become an option, you still choose not to in most cases. How much does psychology play a role in moral thinking here? Definitely interesting, because you have been nurtured into this abrupt ideology of anti-capitalism. I wonder how changing your views of capitalism would alter your views on piracy? I believe it would be a place to start anyway. This may just be a form of social adaptation too. Would bringing you out of your environment help in the process of showing how piracy is bad? Lol :wink: If anything, it would take years of reconditioning and makes the debate even mooter(is that a word?) because we both know we aren't up for the challenge.
 

pkt-zer0

Scholar
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
594
Behaviorism, huh. Similarly, I didn't have the option of buying games when I was younger, only pirating. Nowadays, I choose to purchase most of them, even though I could pirate. (I download no-CD cracks for everything, though. Thank god Starcraft/Warcraft3 has that built in with the latest patch) I still think "more DRM" and "piracy = evil" is complete fucking bullshit.

But that's just based on personal experience, so it's not like you could draw any sort of conclusion from that.
 

Xi

Arcane
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Messages
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Twilight Zone
pkt-zer0 said:
But that's just based on personal experience, so it's not like you could draw any sort of conclusion from that.

You're right, not enough information really. But do you also think capitalism is evil as he does? I'm sure we could find similarities in cognition, experience, etc if we dug deep enough.
 
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
452
Well, i do not deny that my anti-capitalism comes in part by context and previous experience - And as you can see in i being unable to face this topic in a non-philosophical way it should be clear i am rabidly anti-materialistic, too. On the other side i am facing this topic entirely from Kant's Categorial Imperative, without personal preferences, mystical trips, or emotional content being my arguments.

By the Second Postulate humanity must always be an end in itself. Other ends are allowed as far as they do not interfere with humanity as an end in itself. So you can hope to get money for your game as long as that does not make humanity a "mean" to reach that end. Since the idea is "no money = no game", you are giving priority to "Gain" and not to humanity - Turning humanity as a secondary end, and a way to reach your primary end of "money".

This is a side effect of Capitalism, since Capitalism, at least in its present form since i am not scholar on the topic, implies some elements (among others, but i am not scholar on the topic as i just said):

1. That what you are allowed to is defined by your wealth and not by your condition as a human being. This is a violation of the second postulate, since it gives a higher importance to Wealth than to Humanity - Humanity, as a whole, not being an end in itself.

2. That competition is desireable. This is a violation of the second postulate, since competition implies someone gets screwed and thus "competition" is given a higher importance than "humanity". Again, humanity as a whole is not an end in itself.

By now you can already see i am not discussing Piracy from my old standpoint of rabid social darwinism, everyone by himself, crush your enemies and hear the lamentations of their women... but quite the contrary - I am just trying to live and interpret reality by this moral philosophy and finding the entire world has gone mad in the meantime.

By definition Capitalism considers "Wealth" (or capital) more important than humanity in itself - If not it would be called "Humanism" or some similar shit. Wealth, or capital, is the End - Humanity just a means to that end that, ocasionally, gets somewhat benefited by it (and then only a fraction of it gets so).

If you read the other post i made in the topic you would see that i do not consider "Gain" an evil in itself. I consider it an evil when it is the main "objective", or "End", of a given pursuit. If gain were not the main objective of this given pursuit they would not care more about people buying their game than about people having fun with their game. That, since "Gain" is the End and both "Humanity" and "Fun" means to that end, is also a violation of the second postulate.

Now - Piracy is an infringement of copyright. Copyright allows someone to condition, control, and decide who has access to a given intellectual item. Again, this is a violation of the second postulate - Since the "End" of that intellectual item or product should be the betterment of humanity through it's access to it, not whatever end the owner is pursuing by conditioning such access.

Pirates break such conditions, controls, and take away the decision from the creator's hands. Actually, what they do benefit humanity as a whole - People who by several reasons had no access to those games now has it. The same pirates ask you to buy the game if you like it and can. The pirates invest time, effort, and money (in bandwith, site maintenance, HD space, etc) in doing it - Without any kind of "gain" other than... what? A "Thank You" message? Both "Glory" and "Challenge" do not cut it, since many of the pirates who are part of the distribution of the material in P2P networks are totally anonymous - Just some IP from where you are leeching the stuff. They have it and played it, so why are they still sharing it in P2P networks at some (small, big - It is the same) personal cost and for no gain other than helping you and others get the game?

Wheter this is conscious or not you are seeing Second Postulate in action - A sub-culture that spawned, thrived, and made good things without anyone controlling or guiding it: Just because there was a need, a will, and a way. They are harmful to the capitalist system? Yes. Are they harmful to the developers? Yes - But because both the developers and the system is not compatible with the Moral System we are using as a prism, here. If "Gain" were not the end there would be no damage done - And since "Gain" at the expense of humanity is a wrong end in itself, they are still not doing any wrong.

Well... Sorry about that. I just wanted to answer the thing you said, and to leave my posture clearly represented as to not allow for misconceptions. We will continue some other time when you have the stamina for it.

No hard feelings, man. At least you can be sure i listen when we discuss this topic, and take it seriously enough. :wink:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,044
skyway said:
VD you perfectly know that Arcanum didn't sell and resulted in game-returns because it was too buggy. Fallout also was pirated like there was no tomorrow. yet it succeeded.
Succeeded in what? Fallout was an Interplay sleeper-hit that nobody really cared about (in the company). As such very little was riding on it. As for Arcanum, it wasn't that buggy and I don't recall any massive game-returns. What I do remember is Sierra sitting on it for 6 months and fans petitions pointing out the widespread piracy and begging Sierra to release the game. See Leon's quote for more details.

the same thing was with VtmB. bugs. majority of people can't stand them. and this is sad truth - not piracy.
Judging by this thread majority of people can't stand paying for game because it's like uncool or something.

yes but isn't the top guys are the ones who pay money to the lesser guys? can't they just not buy their yacht this month and pay their "lower" devs instead?
Well, that's not how it works, unfortunately. We can all agree that the publishing model is retarded and that publishers are evil bastards, but that's not what we are discussing now, is it?

the nice example is IronLore. what did they produce? a mediocre diablo-clone with a very moderate success? a buggy and shitty-designed addon to WH40K? they've closed their doors and blamed it all on piracy - not on their shitty games nobody wanted to buy.
this is just one example of how piracy is used as an excuse.
And? What does that have to do with justifying piracy?
 

Dark Matter

Prophet
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Messages
1,227
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Toronto
Seems the Codex has hit a new low. Fuckin' thieving scumbags actually having the nerve to try to place guilt on honest, law-abiding devs in order to justify their crimes. I hope you all rot in hell (with the exception of those who still have a semblance of decency and common sense in them).

Wouldn't surprise me if Dragon Age is announced to become a mutliplatform title.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,044
The Rambling Sage said:
The pirate is doing his moral obligation, making something that many people can't allow themselves to own available to them without asking nothing in exchange and by means of perfecting a craft in a way that benefit many.
If they were stealing bread and giving it to the poor, I'd understand your point. We are, however, talking about an entertainment product, which, in most cases, requires a very expensive hardware setup. You aren't trying to tell me that some poor guy with his old 486 and a dial-up connection will be downloading Gothic 3 or Mass Effect, are you?

That means that your argument is full of idealistic shit.

What does the pirate gain when he seeds a torrent for months after they got the loot and played the game? Nothing, at all. He does not gain recognition, because the system is anonymous. He does not gain money.
What does a hacker gain when he takes down a site for the lulz? The Codex was attacked and even taken down several times. Was that a noble deed too? Some kind of community "power to the people" service?

1. That what you are allowed to is defined by your wealth and not by your condition as a human being. This is a violation of the second postulate, since it gives a higher importance to Wealth than to Humanity - Humanity, as a whole, not being an end in itself.
And wealth in most cases depends on one's willingness to work and contribute something. I hope we can all agree that it doesn't take much to earn enough for a video game. Also, I know that quoting Wiki is lame, but I don't have a lot of time, so:

"Kant also applies the categorical imperative in Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals on the subject of "failing to cultivate one's talents." He proposes a man who if he cultivated his talents could bring many goods, but he has everything he wants and would prefer to enjoy the pleasures of life instead. The man asks himself how the universality of such a thing works. While Kant agrees that a society could subsist if everyone did nothing, he notes that the man would have no pleasures to enjoy, for if everyone let their talents go to waste, there would be no one to create luxuries that created this theoretical situation in the first place. Not only that, but cultivating one's talents is a duty to oneself. Thus, it is not willed to make laziness universal, and a rational being has imperfect duty to cultivate its talents. "

2. That competition is desireable. This is a violation of the second postulate, since competition implies someone gets screwed and thus "competition" is given a higher importance than "humanity". Again, humanity as a whole is not an end in itself.
Somebody always gets screwed. The lack of competition leads to stagnation and poor quality, so in the ends a lot more people are getting screwed. See the Soviet Union social experiment for more details.

I am just trying to live and interpret reality by this moral philosophy and finding the entire world has gone mad in the meantime.
When you start thinking that everyone has gone mad that's usually your clue to re-examine your philosophy in case it's you who has gone mad.

Now - Piracy is an infringement of copyright. Copyright allows someone to condition, control, and decide who has access to a given intellectual item. Again, this is a violation of the second postulate - Since the "End" of that intellectual item or product should be the betterment of humanity through it's access to it, not whatever end the owner is pursuing by conditioning such access.
You talk about these postulates as if they were the gospel's truth. Anyway, copyright allows someone to earn a living by creating something. Needless to say, without copyright laws and that "gain" you dislike so much, we would have had very few games and the odds are we'd still be enjoying ASCII graphics.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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Dark Matter said:
Seems the Codex has hit a new low. Fuckin' thieving scumbags actually having the nerve to try to place guilt on honest, law-abiding devs in order to justify their crimes.
They also throw feces at developers these days.
 
Joined
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Messages
452
Vault Dweller said:
And wealth in most cases depends on one's willingness to work and contribute something. I hope we can all agree that it doesn't take much to earn enough for a video game. Also, I know that quoting Wiki is lame, but I don't have a lot of time, so:

"Kant also applies the categorical imperative in Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals on the subject of "failing to cultivate one's talents." He proposes a man who if he cultivated his talents could bring many goods, but he has everything he wants and would prefer to enjoy the pleasures of life instead. The man asks himself how the universality of such a thing works. While Kant agrees that a society could subsist if everyone did nothing, he notes that the man would have no pleasures to enjoy, for if everyone let their talents go to waste, there would be no one to create luxuries that created this theoretical situation in the first place. Not only that, but cultivating one's talents is a duty to oneself. Thus, it is not willed to make laziness universal, and a rational being has imperfect duty to cultivate its talents. "

But to cultivate one's talents do not imply they should be "marketable" talents, as in "Talents Generating Wealth". Also, if you have cultivated your talents in a given thing for the betterment of yourself and humanity and other guy has cultivated his for the same reasons payment is not needed - Both already paid by bettering humanity in their particular ways, by cultivating their talents for all to enjoy.

Vault Dweller said:
Somebody always gets screwed. The lack of competition leads to stagnation and poor quality, so in the ends a lot more people are getting screwed. See the Soviet Union social experiment for more details.

Since "a rational being has imperfect duty to cultivate its talents" then competition is not needed, since everyone is already cultivating their talents or expected to. Competition rewards some talents more than others, and not by how much they better humanity (as if that was even measurable) but by how much wealth they generate.

The emphasis is in "Generating Wealth", not "Betterment of Humanity."

Vault Dweller said:
When you start thinking that everyone has gone mad that's usually your clue to re-examine your philosophy in case it's you who has gone mad.

Well... That's a valid point. But then i am just applying Kant's moral philosophy, one of the most perfect and developed, if not the most. So maybe is the rest of the world that went crazy.

Vault Dweller said:
You talk about these postulates as if they were the gospel's truth. Anyway, copyright allows someone to earn a living by creating something. Needless to say, without copyright laws and that "gain" you dislike so much, we would have had very few games and the odds are we'd still be enjoying ASCII graphics.

I talk of this postulates as if they were the gospel's truth because it was a part of a, for me at least, ongoing discussion with Xi about Kant's Categorical Imperative, piracy under it, and how to apply such a moral system in today's world.

And i said i dislike gain as the main "End", not in itself. There is nothing bad, for an example, in asking for someone to pay for your game - While there is something wrong, in my eyes, by asking someone to pay for a game a prohibitive price and then say "then no game for you, sucker" - just ask more of who can permit more and less from who can permit less, be flexible. They are people, not things. When we lose sight of that (as most the current world has) things get shitty and sucky quite fast (as it happens for a lot of people in today's world).

And yes, games are not "Food" or "Air" or "Water". But denying people some fun and, leaving the specifics for other time, cultural products because they were less lucky in the "Capitalist" game is just messed up from a moral perspective.

I know the Codex is USA and EU centric and all that, but there is a world out there where people also has PCs and also likes games, and they would very nicely paid if they were asked a price logical inside their context instead of the price asked in more "wealthy" places - And then inflated by means of "The Market".
 

Fez

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
7,954
Dgaider said:
but it's still theft.

Copyright infringement, actually. :P

Edit: Oh, and I'm surprised at the level of stroppiness and the size of the shit storm in such a short time.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
fuck, just torrent it and stfu about DRM already. You already got the candy from the shop for free, why do you need to boast about it and justify that the candy is too expensive?
 

DefJam101

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Cybernegro HQ
Can someone give me an answer please?: I want to know why exactly someone pirating and playing a game instead of not buying it is worse than not buying it and never playing it at all.

I've pirated and played plenty of games that I would never ever think of buying. Had I not pirated them, I would've never played them or bought them. Period. What I don't understand (perhaps someone can help me with this) is why it is better for me to not buy the game than to pirate it and still not buy it.




The way I see it:

A) If I don't buy the game, I don't buy the game. It doesn't matter if I pirate it or not... The developers and publishers get no money out of me. I don't see any direct economical difference between these two. (More on this later...)

B) If I am not thinking of ever buying the game, but end up pirating it and like it (there is always the off chance of this happening) they may have just earned themselves a customer that they would not have otherwise had.


C) If I don't buy the game, I don't experience the game. I know nothing about the game other than what reviews have told me. Suppose that instead of not buying the game I decide to pirate it. Whether or not I like it, I can now successfully advertise by word of mouth.

If I liked the game, I might buy it, and I will tell other people I liked it and they should check it out. Some of those other people might buy it as well. New customers. Even if I didn't like the game, or thought it was mediocre; I can still advertise. A few people might hear what I said and google it and end up a customer.

This happens to me all the time, it's how I found a lot of my favorite games. Can I say for sure that the person who was talking about it pirated the game? No, of course not. -But I do know that if they never had the chance to play the game I never would have heard about it.






*Possible counter-points:

A) Although I don't see any direct economical impact to the developers, my piracy could inspire otherwise paying customers to pirate the game. This is a definite possibility, but I don't see any way we could measure this.

B) Although from my own personal experience this happens frequently (pirate-turned-customer) it is, again, impossible to measure.

C) I can't think of a counter point to this one. If I was never going to buy the game anyways, I don't see how having the chance to spread word-of-mouth (whether I buy the game or not) can possibly be a bad thing.



Then there is the whole thing about piracy being theft of intellectual property and such.. Well, I don't know much about that; but perhaps my rampant neutrality to everything in life has dulled me to the sensation of having someone play your brainchild without first paying you for it. Personally, I could care less if someone was playing my game; if they were a fan of my games I would be disappointed in them not buying it. If they weren't a fan I could care less what they do. If they were never going to buy the game why does it matter; I had lost them from the beginning.
 

lefthandblack

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Messages
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Domestic Terrorist HQ
Dgaider said:
Obviously I don't really care what he wants, nor what you demand.
Liberating, isn't it?

I don't harbor any delusions, that you as a bioware developer had any part in all of this, but I think the quote above would be a perfect mission statement for the company you work for under the circumstances, simply by replacing "he" and "you" with "the customer".

Personally, I find it liberating to think about all the millions your company no doubt spent on this failed drm and then laugh my ass off. At this point I would like nothing more than to see your company and others like it fail stupendously and go bankrupt. If this is the direction that pc-gaming is heading in, then it NEEDS to die.

We don't need no water, let the motherfucker burn.
(burn motherfucker burn)

I most likely would have bought this game, if not for this. I won't be torrenting it, I will however encourage anyone so inclined to go ahead and do so, with the hope that it will adversely affect your companies bottom line. Between the alienation of potential customers such as myself, the lost capital spent on drm and the pirates, it would seem that your company stands to lose alot of money. That makes me smile for some reason, karma perhaps?

To those advocating the purchase and use of the crack to bypass the drm, I would remind you that by doing so you are already violating the law; it's not a far leap to just go ahead and download it anyway, as either way you are breaking the law.
 

Foamhead

Educated
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
79
Fez said:
Dgaider said:
but it's still theft.

Copyright infringement, actually. :P

Edit: Oh, and I'm surprised at the level of stroppiness and the size of the shit storm in such a short time.

No it's theft.

Copyright infringement would be if I were to release a space themed action-rpg called "Mass : The Effect"
 

WalterKinde

Scholar
Joined
Dec 27, 2006
Messages
524
If the assertion of what you just posted was true people would be going to jail for downloading media but they are not.
What they are going to jail for/getting fined for is making available to others.
Its fine point but the distinctions are clear which is why rapidshare has to police their servers, the people downloading the files are not the ones in trouble, its whoever uploads it and hosts it on their server.Thats how the RIAA etc can prosecute people its not that Barry downloaded 10,000 songs,games and movies off kazaa etc its that he had the gaul to share those 10,000 pieces of media with other people online.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
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Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Vault Dweller said:
If they were stealing bread and giving it to the poor, I'd understand your point. We are, however, talking about an entertainment product, which, in most cases, requires a very expensive hardware setup. You aren't trying to tell me that some poor guy with his old 486 and a dial-up connection will be downloading Gothic 3 or Mass Effect, are you?

Just becouse somebody can spend 500$ every 4-5 years on hardware it does not mean that he also has extra $ to buy every games that he wants to play. Big part of gamers are also kids that play on family PC. Lowering the game prices = more copies sold - fact.
 
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DefJam101 said:
Can someone give me an answer please?: I want to know why exactly someone pirating and playing a game instead of not buying it is worse than not buying it and never playing it at all.

You know...I can sort of answer this, but not too well. See, I'm not much of a deontological man myself, but I'm sure people who subscribe to that type of thinking would declare your sample action morally impermissible because of the intentions and circumstances around it and completely ignore the consequential aspects here. A consequential thinker wouldn't see any problem with this.

Anywho, I really should stay out of this thread, but maybe I can try a little gambit to stop all this back and forth bull, eh? Or maybe I'm getting a little carried away here.

First off, get rid of the morals here. Morals are such a weak argument in anything business. All that matters is the bottom line, efficiency, and surviving/thriving in the free market. Let's also make the leap that I'm sure a lot of people are making in their minds now that piracy is virtually unstoppable with the current business model that game developers have. Now there's a few things to go through.

First up, let's look at why DRM is just plain silly. You know those people who say it only harms legitimate users? They're partially right. Why's this? Because it doesn't hurt pirates much at all. If someone was dead set or even pretty sure on torrenting a game, no DRM is going to stop them from doing so. Why? Because DRM will be cracked, and the cracked code will be all over the internet in a very short period of time. How long was it for Mass Effect? Two days? And now everybody and their brother with an internet connection can pirate it. So that leaves the burden of DRM solely now on the people who bought it. Now these people who bought, I mean bought the right to play, Mass Effect face a little bit of a problem. They don't own the game they paid for. They can't do what they want with it. Now, this becomes quite the fishy scenario when you compare it tothe console version of Mass Effect. Similarly priced, similarly featured, except the console owner can do what he/she wants with their game. They want to lend it to 10 friends? It's their choice. They want to play through it and then use it as a gift for a friend? It's in the clear. They want to resell it? Booyah. The PC owner on the other hand can't do this because they don't own a copy of the game, only the right to use it.

If the previous doesn't send up a "What the hell" flag or two in your mind, you haven't been paying attention or you are a little too accepting of corporate bull. See, does it make sense to have a business try to operate on a product model, sell their stuff at a "product-price" (see console games and PC games comparison), but in the end not give the consumer an actual product that they own? That's kind of strange, no?

Now this leads into the idea that piracy isn't some heinous moral outrage that must be defeated with lawyers, legislation, and moral arguments with stupid false equivocation (hello "It's theft" arguments), but just a technological "Pandora's Box" that's opened up and dumped a new global effect onto the market for games. Fact is, companies now have to compete with a faceless entity that can, within a very short time, use today's technology and take a game, replicate and distribute it at least 10 times as efficiently as the company could, all the while asking for no price paid. Simply put, a force most game developers can not fight. The only way the developers can survive is by offering something the pirated version can't, but to do that, they can't utilize anything in the product model of business, because whatever they add, piracy can easily replicate. The developers have to adapt, they have to change their business model.

They have a few different options:

1. Go console. Consoles don't have a piracy problem due to limitations built within them, allowing the "blockbuster" model of high cost, high revenue to still function. Plus they are infinitely better suited to the product model of business in games.

2. Go smaller and go off a patronage model. You make the game, and sell it to people with the idea that if people like your work, they'll buy it so you can make more and fulfill their gaming needs. However, this will have to be generally smaller budget operations, as consumers will generally feel pretty apathetic about system like this with a faceless corporation. Probably the right size is one where you could easily chat with a developer via a message board or e-mail. Take a look at Vogel, VD, Wolf Mittag, and Naked Ninja. Those are pretty much what this business model would/should look like. It has consumers like us paying for games because we like the games/ideas developers have and want more of their work. It's like an investment in our "fun future"

3. Go service based. Look at Blizzard. All PC games, all the time, and they don't complain about piracy one lick or have it hurt them. Why? Because they changed their business model to a service based one. You pay a fee to use their online space whether it be a monthly fee in World of Warcraft, or a once-per-different-game fee for a Battle.net access code like with Starcraft, Warcraft, Diablo (read: the CD-Key).

4. Go ad-based. Tons of "free-mmos" do this, and so will EA's Battlefield Heroes. A good, free online game is sure to have a lot of players, and with such a high playerbase, companies will likely pay decent money for ad spots.

See, there are alternatives. Companies just can't make "blockbuster" single-player focused PC games anymore. So what. Stop whining and start adapting you freaking panda bears. Instead of fighting an unwinnable battle with stupid moral fallacies that no one deep down gives a shit about, get your shit together, get off your Luddite asses, and go out and compete in the free market.
 

Sir_Brennus

Scholar
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
665
Location
GERMANY
@Dgaider

I'm sorry that you couldn't answer my questions. A shame, really. I'll have to find out the answers for myself next week when the game arrives.

If the DRM is more restrictive than Two Worlds then I (like everyone and his dog) know where to find a fixed .exe.

You may be able to bind people to your product by free expansions and mandatory registration, but I think EA is going to do this anyway.

@Vault Dweller
When you start thinking that everyone has gone mad that's usually your clue to re-examine your philosophy in case it's you who has gone mad.

Signature material!

@Skyway
It's showing that you did not understand that your Iron Lore argument is totally misdirected.

@all
Leaving this thread alone, needed 1 hour to catch up after a night's sleep :wink:
 

Binary

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 30, 2003
Messages
901
Location
Trinsic
Sir_Brennus said:
If the DRM is more restrictive than Two Worlds then I (like everyone and his dog) know where to find a fixed .exe.

Why does everyone assume that every single game customer out there is tech-savvy like ye average codexere?

Are we in a "DRM is OK because we know how to hack it" stance? wtf?

1) pirates don't care about DRM because they find a way around it - we can all agree to this.

2) legitimate customers are the ones getting hurt by DRM. some know how to deal with it, some don't - these last ones are the ones who are affected the most

The question is still unanswered: why DRM? David Gaider just came into the discussion, pushed the topic to the "piracy" scene, then refused to answer simple legitimate questions. Respect --

Oh and VDweller, don't tell me it's piracy that hurts developers. You know it isn't, don't give us the "I'm a developer now, feel sorry for me" speech, mmmkay?
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,986
If you cna't afford to buy a game then tough shit. I can't afford to buy a ferrari either. Boo hoo fuckin' hoo. Youa rne't owed the right to play every fuckin' game.

Fuckin' thieves aka priates are scumbags. they want their cake, and eat it too. Fuckin' piece of fuckin' shits.
 

shihonage

Second Variety Games
Patron
Developer
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
7,188
Location
United States Of Azebarjan
Bubbles In Memoria
Vault Dweller said:
Dark Matter said:
Seems the Codex has hit a new low. Fuckin' thieving scumbags actually having the nerve to try to place guilt on honest, law-abiding devs in order to justify their crimes.
They also throw feces at developers these days.

"Developers" is an awfully broad term. Here's a developer:

"I never minded piracy. Anyone who minds about piracy is full of shit. Anyone who pirates your game wasn't going to buy it anyway!" - Warren Spector
 

samsim25

Novice
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
22
Location
Singapore
"I never minded piracy. Anyone who minds about piracy is full of shit. Anyone who pirates your game wasn't going to buy it anyway!" - Warren Spector

not true, I remember how as a kid, I used to spend money on games or receive them as presents, simply because there was no broadband.
 

shihonage

Second Variety Games
Patron
Developer
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
7,188
Location
United States Of Azebarjan
Bubbles In Memoria
samsim25 said:
"I never minded piracy. Anyone who minds about piracy is full of shit. Anyone who pirates your game wasn't going to buy it anyway!" - Warren Spector

not true, I remember how as a kid, I used to spend money on games or receive them as presents, simply because there was no broadband.

The key words there are "I never minded piracy", a statement coming from a big-name developer, which I quoted to demonstrate that not all developers have this stick-up-their-ass feed-em-DRM-till-they-drop attitude toward piracy prevention.

Anyway, this whole thing got off-target. Of course piracy isn't something to be welcomed, but the point was, the DRM often hurts the customer. Very often. And it does nothing to stop most of the pirates.

For instance after installing C&C3 and Gears of War (which I both bought) I was then forced to look for a crack so that I don't have to listen to my loud DVD drive and swap discs every time I wanted to play either.

That's what you're forcing legit customers do, dear developers. Look for cracks the moment we buy the game. Sometimes I even don't buy the game until I am sure there's a crack that will let me remove the disc.

What's the point of installing the entire game on my hard drive if I can't run it whenever I want ? There's no point. Just pure, unadulturated, fresh squeezed paranoia.

CD keys were enough. Stick with that, dear developers. Past that point, lie the diminishing returns for you and exponential problems for the legit customers.
 

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