For those who played Fallout 2 before playing Fallout

[Vault Dweller]

Precisely. Fallout 3 setting is nothing but stupid lulz, which is what I said in my review:
...

Instead of a consistent and logical world, we get "cool shit". What's cool shit, you ask? An excellent question. Cool shit is whatever stuff random Bethesda designers thought would be cool. To be honest, Fallout 2 was also sporadically guilty of this syndrome, but Fallout 3 takes it to a thoroughly different level.

A town in the crater of an unexploded bomb? - Cool!
A Peter Pan-esque settlement of invincible kids who expel people when they hit 16? - Awesome!
A Lovecraftian Cthulhu-dedicated "Dunwich horror" location - Pretty awesome!
A gang of blood-drinking vampire wannabies - Beyond awesome!
A howling radio DJ keeping the bored populace of the, uh, wasteland informed of your progress - wait, let me check my awesometer... my god, it's over 9000!!!

Overall, it would be easy to write a report worthy of an EU bureaucrat listing all the silly and stupid things Bethesda has shoehorned into Fallout 3. The biggest problem is not so much that it isn’t Fallout, but rather that the setting doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Bethesda had an opportunity to craft a cohesive “living & breathing” world, but instead chose to build an amusement park with a bit of everything ‘cool’ they could think of. To be fair, some things Bethesda did are brilliant and atmospheric, but they are isolated elements that never form a coherent and consistent world that makes even the most basic sense."

 

[1eyedking]

If
Fallout 2 = Fallout 1 + stupid shit + lulz
then
Fallout 3 = Fallout 2 - Fallout 1

 

[Vault Dweller]

Wow. Du you even have words describing Fallout 3 "content"?
Because, I somehow have a feeling you are exaggerating.

See Jasede's post.

I mean, I get your point, but I still don't think that players should be punished in a "BAM! you lose! ha!" way for their long-term mistakes.

Any sort of punishment, yeah, sure, but not "Sorry, you just wasted days playing. Start again.". In a roguelike, this is okay, but not in a RPG like Fallout.

Why? I assume you've played older games. Games where you could easily die if you don't bring enough food/water with you or because your boots fell apart during your travels, you didn't have spare boots, and caught a cold (true story).

 

[Jasede]

Old adventures and RPGs loved to have items early on that you needed to win the game, but seemed very inconspicious, so you ended up accidentally dropping or selling them, saving over your game, encountering an unwinnable game over later on, pulling your hair out-

And then restarting from scratch because now you knew (this part) and the game was fun enough to do that. Biggest memory I have of this is King's Quest 6, where you are trapped in the minotaur's maze - you either have the brick you picked up from another island, or you don't. If you don't, you can use a skull to stop the trap - except it doesn't last long enough and you die. Game over, nothing you can do. And you know what? It was the best adventure game I ever played. Very proud to figure it out on my own as a kid, though I had to look up one riddle. ( )

Edit: Sorry, that was completely unrelated, but I like remembering old games. Nostalgia Codex.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Eheh, or even better when you do get the required object, but not as you should. For example, in one of the ZORKs (can't remember which, it was graphical though) you needed to take a plant. When you clicked on it, you had, among other options, the possibility to pull it from the ground or cut it with a knife. If you chose to cut it, well... though luck, because later you needed that plant alive.

 

[The Ninth Circle]

Old adventures and RPGs loved to have items early on that you needed to win the game, but seemed very inconspicious, so you ended up accidentally dropping or selling them, saving over your game, encountering an unwinnable game over later on, pulling your hair out-

And then restarting from scratch because now you knew (this part) and the game was fun enough to do that. Biggest memory I have of this is King's Quest 6, where you are trapped in the minotaur's maze - you either have the brick you picked up from another island, or you don't. If you don't, you can use a skull to stop the trap - except it doesn't last long enough and you die. Game over, nothing you can do. And you know what? It was the best adventure game I ever played. Very proud to figure it out on my own as a kid, though I had to look up one riddle. ( )

Edit: Sorry, that was completely unrelated, but I like remembering old games. Nostalgia Codex.

Imagine going into Morrowind with this mentality. I grabbed every damn ingredient in that first building only to find out they're completely worthless. I kept thinking that these must be used somewhere else.

 

[Jasede]

At least I wasn't the only one.

 

[JarlFrank]

Imagine the awesome possibilities of combining adventure and RPG. The oldschool variants of both, of course. Sierra-Adventure meeting an RPG with elements from Fallout and early 90's RPGs (like Star Trail). Fuck, the POTENTIAL!

 

[SCO]

Now lets not get carried away, ....


:qfgnostalgia:

 

[Kavax]

Imagine the awesome possibilities of combining adventure and RPG. The oldschool variants of both, of course. Sierra-Adventure meeting an RPG with elements from Fallout and early 90's RPGs (like Star Trail). Fuck, the POTENTIAL!

Well, we already have Quest for Glory.

 

[Jasede]

Quest for Glory 1-4 and Bloodnet, though I never played the latter.

Ah, I so liked Quest for Glory - it had everything! Even furries.

 

[SCO]

bloodnet was very cool actually.

Except the interface and combat game play.

 

[The Ninth Circle]

Imagine the awesome possibilities of combining adventure and RPG. The oldschool variants of both, of course. Sierra-Adventure meeting an RPG with elements from Fallout and early 90's RPGs (like Star Trail). Fuck, the POTENTIAL!

[Blasphemy] I never liked those adventure games.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I guess this must be the infamous post that impressed young Dark Matter so much.

Epic butthurt detected*.

*: see what I did there?
You are very witty.

Do you deny that there is a lot of stupid shit in Fallout 2? Yes or no, please. If yes, examples will be provided. If no, what's your point?

In what context? This is a sci-fi game after all, done in a humorous way. You're still not getting the point.

What point would that be? That Fallout is a funny sci-fi game and everything that's funny and sci-fi would fit right in? No, I don't get it.

I don't find talking deathclaws stupid, for instance, because they raised the interesting question as to whether such creatures would pose a threat to humanity or not. Even when isolating such questions, would they be considered stupid? Think about it. A modified FEV virus grants accelerated cranial growth that permits previously idiotic animals language development.

I think you're confusing Fallout 2 with Gremlins 2.

Probably because it's also sci-fi and funny. Did you ever think what interesting questions would such creatures raise? Quite a lot, I think.

New Reno is a good example. It's a superbly designed location with great role-playing opportunities, but ... it doesn't fit.

Thank you for proving my point. Fallout 2 is the better role-playing game.

Because one location is really well done?

Fallout 1 is more serious, yes, but Fallout 2 isn't inconsistent; it's just a burlesque take on the post-apocalyptic setting, tongue-in-cheek, humorous, comical.

I'm ok with this definition, but not with the concept. Surely you must realize that not everyone will like burlesque in their Fallout and that it's a valid reason for some people to like the first game more. This is ALL we're talking about here.

Does seriousness equal superiority? Fuck no.

If we're talking about the follow up to a serious game/movie/book, then yes. Did you like Jar-Jar Binks?

And how are the NCR, SF and VC cities inconsistent? One's a blooming republic, another a token technological city, the other an incredibly cynical nod at the Garden of Eden Creation Kit still leaving room for slavery. Just because they're different doesn't mean they don't make sense. Take any real world cities as an example.

sigh

They make sense. But not in the Fallout world. Not 80 years after the events of the first game. There is no fucking way that 80 years after this:




... a place like Vault City, a finely built city with green parks with benches, information kiosks, and superior defenses & technology, would exist. Or that Shady Sands would turn into NCR and get its own "mechanized forces" and cars. It just doesn't make any fucking sense.

Awesome. You didn't read his post, assumed that he wants more Desert Eagle, called him a dumbass, and posted more "Desert Eagle" examples. Who is the dumbass?

That's what the guy said. I either missed his complex sarcasm, or he didn't express himself correctly. Writing is teh hard.

Digging yourself deeper?

He said: "Why would anyone want to invade a setting with an insane potential with all the BORING "real world" crap in a most stunted, forced manner like a dog shitting in the middle of the carpet kind of way? I get sick of that crap right here, I wanted you faggots to give me more stuff in the spirit of the awesome PIPE RIFLE instead of the DESERT EAGLE."

You said: "First you ask for no "real world crap", and then you ask for more Desert Eagles?"

Questions?

How is that a theme park? That's the PA core right there: caves with animals, small peaceful places, raiders, towns made out of containers and old cars (makes a lot of sense, actually), a dead town with a handful of greatly mutated survivors (Necropolis), trading hub (what exactly is wrong with it), etc. Every location makes sense and fits. They are not connected, but they don't have to be.

I never said they didn't make sense. But they're theme parks, nonetheless, as much as FO2's towns are.

:facepalm: Locations with themes and theme parks are two different things.

It's been 80 years in between both games. Isolated people either regress into barbarism or build upon their knowledge. Maybe the Wanderer believed peace could only be found by ignoring technology, which got humanity in the game's ragged state to begin with. It's also the point of the fucking game, goddamit, how many times do I have to repeat myself that it's about humanity repeating its same mistakes.

You can repeat yourself all you want but it wouldn't magically turn your beliefs into solid arguments.

80 years is simply not enough to turn people who lived before the war into savages who name their kids Narg or Kurisu and shove bones through their noses.

80 years is not enough to turn a shitty village into an almost modern, technologically advanced city with laser fucking gates.

Yes, New Reno is visually a bit over-the-top, and immature at times of course, but it's also fun, very well designed, fits into the political scheme nicely, runs a drug business that is tied to one of the best quest-lines in an RPG, and further serves the message that all of humanity's vices would be reborn once again, whether it's porn, boxing, gambling, alcoholism, drug abuse, or plain old violence.

The message doesn't fit the setting. Who the fuck needs porno movies in this setting?



Do you really think there is a demand?

I don't care what a cornered Avellone has to say...

Let's close this discussion then. Further arguments will result only in different variations of "I don't care what [insert adjective] [insert name] has to say..."

 

[Radisshu]

Quest for Glory combat was crappy, too, but those games were still great. ARE still great.

 

[Mackerel]

Imagine the awesome possibilities of combining adventure and RPG. The oldschool variants of both, of course. Sierra-Adventure meeting an RPG with elements from Fallout and early 90's RPGs (like Star Trail). Fuck, the POTENTIAL!

We've already had a combination of oldschool adventure games and RPGs for quite a while: MUDs. You darn kids and your need for a "graphical" adventure.

 

[Jasede]

MUDs have nothing to do with oldschool adventures (IMO). And I played MUDs and text adventures.

 

[Mackerel]

How so? You didn't solve puzzles by carefully reading room descriptions and using miscellaneous junk in any MUDs you played?

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

I'm surprised more people played Fallout 2 first, I have to say.

 

[Jasede]

How so? You didn't solve puzzles by carefully reading room descriptions and using miscellaneous junk in any MUDs you played?

Nope. MUDs I played are about two things:
Either a) MMORPG-like grinding of monsters to gain levels
or b) Hardcore nazi-elitist roleplay where you have to be super-IC or get banned.

 

[Deadeye Dragoon]

They make sense. But not in the Fallout world. Not 80 years after the events of the first game. There is no fucking way that 80 years after this:

... a place like Vault City, a finely built city with green parks with benches, information kiosks, and superior defenses & technology, would exist. Or that Shady Sands would turn into NCR and get its own "mechanized forces" and cars. It just doesn't make any fucking sense.

(...)

80 years is simply not enough to turn people who lived before the war into savages who name their kids Narg or Kurisu and shove bones through their noses.

80 years is not enough to turn a shitty village into an almost modern, technologically advanced city with laser fucking gates.

What are your sources that tell you what's im/possible in a world 80 years after FO1? The primary source of the game itself holds that it is possible, so I'm not sure what alternate information you're looking at that holds it isn't. Unless of course you're simply asserting your opinion as fact.

 

[1eyedking]

What a pictographic reply. Serious business.

[...]

Gremlins? Way to go man, now everyone will think you're funny and cool.

Shoot yourself in the foot, will you.

sigh

They make sense. But not in the Fallout world. Not 80 years after the events of the first game. There is no fucking way that 80 years after this:

... a place like Vault City, a finely built city with green parks with benches, information kiosks, and superior defenses & technology, would exist. Or that Shady Sands would turn into NCR and get its own "mechanized forces" and cars. It just doesn't make any fucking sense.

Vault City used a G.E.C.K. for Christ's sake, and slaves. I also see nothing wrong with Shady Sands turning into NCR, since there is no evidence against it. 80 fucking years is a very long time.

Digging yourself deeper?

He said: "Why would anyone want to invade a setting with an insane potential with all the BORING "real world" crap in a most stunted, forced manner like a dog shitting in the middle of the carpet kind of way? I get sick of that crap right here, I wanted you faggots to give me more stuff in the spirit of the awesome PIPE RIFLE instead of the DESERT EAGLE."

You said: "First you ask for no "real world crap", and then you ask for more Desert Eagles?"

Questions?

What the hell? I won't answer this, I'd repeat myself. Read.

:facepalm: Locations with themes and theme parks are two different things.

Don't play semantics. FO1 locations are theme parks.

You can repeat yourself all you want but it wouldn't magically turn your beliefs into solid arguments.

80 years is simply not enough to turn people who lived before the war into savages who name their kids Narg or Kurisu and shove bones through their noses.

80 years is not enough to turn a shitty village into an almost modern, technologically advanced city with laser fucking gates.

And I do believe 80 years is enough time to turn Shady Sands into NCR. After all Shady Sands itself was built in only 20 according to FO1 canon.

The message doesn't fit the setting. Who the fuck needs porno movies in this setting?

Do you really think there is a demand?

How the hell does an image prove your point? This is starting to get ridiculous.

Furthermore there's only mention of your pornographic acts at New Reno, and believe me there *would* be a demand over there. Holographic devices maybe? Some kind of theater at the casinos? Use your wild imagination, VD.

Let's close this discussion then. Further arguments will result only in different variations of "I don't care what [insert adjective] [insert name] has to say..."

Avellone never admitted it, he said it probably didn't fit, was immature, and felt over-the-top. It still doesn't feel like the solid "it was utter shit" as you say it is.

 

[Mackerel]

How so? You didn't solve puzzles by carefully reading room descriptions and using miscellaneous junk in any MUDs you played?

Nope. MUDs I played are about two things:
Either a) MMORPG-like grinding of monsters to gain levels
or b) Hardcore nazi-elitist roleplay where you have to be super-IC or get banned.

Wow, those sound like pretty awful MUDs. I tended to play exploratory MUDs where roleplaying was encouraged but not at all required and you had to solve puzzles, sometime with hair-pulling levels of difficulty, to access new areas, find unique equipment, and understand the backstory of the gameworld. There was grinding, although that term from MMORPGs hadn't been coined yet, but the hunting spots were varied and grouping with other players made it fairly painless and fun in most cases. I even played MUDs that had a separate Quest Point system that allowed you to power up your avatar from other actions. I'm not sure how MUDs are currently though, as I haven't played one since the mid-90s.

 

[Phelot]

You know, one part of Fallout 2 I really liked was the idea of a bunch of rival city states and emerging mini "nations" like NCR. I thought it was a believable progression from the 80 years that passed, well maybe not have Shady Sands = NCR. In fact, it would have been cool if the whole purpose of the player was to either pick a side and trigger a war or try to prevent a war from ever happening. The whole Enclave, the more I think about them the more I dislike it and the idea that the vaults were social experiments made me roll my eyes even the first time I played.

On the flip side to emerging nations and city states, it might have been interesting to explore the tribes a little more. Perhaps instead of civilizations growing and people rediscovering lost technology, they instead regress.

I mean think about it, who is making these guns and ammo? I know that one village in LA Boneyards said they were remaking bullets from shell casings, but still... perhaps 80 years is enough time for technology and machines to finally break down completely, leaving people in the dark ages: no power, no guns, no cars, no computers and thus no information considering most books by now would have been pretty illegible.

 

[Gragt]

Vault City used a G.E.C.K. for Christ's sake, and slaves. I also see nothing wrong with Shady Sands turning into NCR, since there is no evidence against it. 80 fucking years is a very long time.

The GECK is a bit of a magical device and its real effects aren't really known but so be it. Yet I have trouble to find plausible a city in the middle of a hostile wasteland with nice little gardens and said benches and informations kiosks. If it firmly controlled a sizeable portion of the wasteland, I could understand people would want to develop such luxuries, but not really in a precarious position like Vault City's. NCR supposedly controls some sizeable territory, and it could explain some of its strenght. The way it is organized also seem more fitting to a town in the middle of a hostile wasteland. I doubt a small village like Shady Sands could attain the size of the NCR, not only the town itself but the totality of its members, in only 80 years, especially when you compare it to historical exemples like Rome or Greece, but I can suspend disbelief for this one — unlike Vault City that stretches it thin.

Don't play semantics. FO1 locations are theme parks.

I wonder who is playing semantics there. As VD said, a set of zones with a theme each doesn't make a theme park, especially when they are coherent within the setting.

And I do believe 80 years is enough time to turn Shady Sands into NCR. After all Shady Sands itself was built in only 20 according to FO1 canon.

20 years to create a small backwater village and it can be turned in only 4 times that amount of time into a powerful federation of wasteland towns united under one banner? Tandi is a strong and charismatic leader but the NCR seems too advanced with such humble origins and with so little time. But again, I can persuade myself to accept it.

How the hell does an image prove your point? This is starting to get ridiculous.

Furthermore there's only mention of your pornographic acts at New Reno, and believe me there *would* be a demand over there. Holographic devices maybe? Some kind of theater at the casinos? Use your wild imagination, VD.

I guess he meant that there wouldn't be much need for pr0n in a desolate place where daily survival is the main concern. If we consider pr0n as some kind of luxury, that kind of industry doesn't have its place in a post-apoc setting like Fallout's. As for the need for pr0n in NR, the mere presence place is highly questionnable.

Avellone never admitted it, he said it probably didn't fit, was immature, and felt over-the-top. It still doesn't feel like the solid "it was utter shit" as you say it is.

I know you like to play semantics but re-read Avellone's quote, and maybe copy it again, instead of cooking it to your own sauce.