Community Fargo and Co to party like it's 1988 + New 30$ tier

[General Maxson]

Changing the topic. If somebody will be watching the party (for me it's 4AM), record that shit!

Yes, please! I want to be able to watch and download it and I can't stay that late. So americans please be BRO's!

 

[Morkar Left]

And the people who already donated get it for free anyway (and all higher tiers either).

Do you have a source for this? The whole "get people to upgrade" implies that people at $15 will not get it for free and I haven't seen any statement to the contrary.

I'm all for being adherent to principles and such but this arguing is just over the top.

Outside of the fact that the decision has been made already, why is this arguing over the top? If the fundamental principle of offering exclusive content for certain investment amounts or investment paths is one of the problems we have with modern publishing, why should we just ignore or accept it when it happens with a different development model? And if it is a negative behaviour, why shouldn't we argue against it?

The 15$ tier doesn't get it obviously, all other donaters get it for free because they already donated and were already satisfied with the things they got before these additional goodies. The 15$ tier donaters get encouraged this way to upgrade to the 30$ tier but they don't loose anything if they don't want to.

To your second question I think there is a BIG BIG BIG difference between cutted out story/quest/companion/equipment that gets sold separately and a bunch of player portraits which I'm sure you will get some gigabytes of it as fanmade content anyway (or can do it yourself). Personally I think not getting Stackpoles novella together with the game is a lot more cutted out content from the game than this picture pack.

 

[Temaperacl]

The 15$ tier doesn't get it obviously, all other tiers get it for free because they already donated and were already satisfied with the things they get before this additional goodies.

Fair enough - your original post implied the $15 tier was getting it too, which is why I asked for clarification. (The tiers above are obvious by the upward-propagating nature of most of the rewards).

The 15$ tier donaters get encouraged this way to upgrade to the 30$ tier but they don't loose anything if they don't want to.

Are the $15 donators losing out on the pictures or are the $30s getting the pictures extra? From a mechanical standpoint, they are equivalent.

(Ignoring the issue of exclusive content being right or wrong for now). From someone who donated $15 with the assumption (based on everything that was visible at the time) that they would be getting the full game, I would think that it would appear to be losing out on the extra portraits - that they were being told they had to double their reward tier to get everything that was in the game. This would, at least, be how i would view it if I were at the $15 tier.

From a fresh (non-invested) perspective, I think the view of this would depend on what they viewed as "the game". For people who saw the base game as the game, the $15 and $30 tier levels would be "bonuses". For people who looked at all the content created at launch as "the game", it would look like content was being cut for the $15 and Non-Kickstarter tiers.

BF probably looks at it as "bonuses" instead of "cuts". Most people seem to agree with BF in this view, but there is definately a segment of people that view it as a "cut".

To your second question I think there is a BIG BIG BIG difference between cutted out story/quest/companion/equipment that gets sold separately and a bunch of player portraits

There is. I have no argument there. What I would argue is that despite the scale of the difference, it is still a quantitative difference instead of a qualitative one. That is, if cutting out a story is wrong, cutting out portraits is still wrong, just not as wrong.

which I'm sure you will get some gigabytes of it as fanmade content anyway

Probably. But I've always rejected "you can mod it" or "fans will make up the difference" as an argument for leaving something out or justifying [that sort of] development decisions - my evaluation of the game will be based on what they provided, not what fans provided or made possible after the fact.

(or can do it yourself).

I believe you greatly overestimate my artistic skills.

Personally I think not getting Stackpoles novella together with the game is a lot more cutted out content from the game than this picture pack.

The difference as I see it is that one of them (The novella) is not in the game itself (not that I am a huge fan of these universe expansions outside the game although my only real issue with those is when they get tied back into the game in a manner that makes you miss out if you haven't read them). The other (the picture pack) is part of the game itself.

I realize it may seem like hair-splitting, but that is a vital difference as far as I am concerned. If this were positioned as just "a collection of pictures" (suitable for forum avatars or other use but also designed to be easily imported into WL2 for additional character portraits) then I wouldn't have a problem with it. Positioning it as an expansion of the character portraits available in game changes it into game content and brings up my opposition. Fundamentally, they are the same thing - a collection of pictures (Although one of them may be pre-integrated into the game). But one is (especially if they are pre-integrated) a part of the game, which leads to the issues I have with it, while the other is not a part of the game (Even if it can be used in the game by the player using the import functionality).

 

[Nattvardsvin]

Eh, I can probably record the party and then rip it. (Insomnia fuck yeah) When is it, like 6 hours from now or something?

 

[Morkar Left]

Are the $15 donators losing out on the pictures or are the $30s getting the pictures extra? From a mechanical standpoint, they are equivalent.

That's where I disagree. They don't lose anything. Not even the additional pictures because they weren't promised before. That's why I don't consider them equivalent. We could discuss that the 15$ tier should have get something too (maybe the pictures, maybe the docu) that they don't feel left behind to the other donaters. This would have been probably a smarter business move but I don't think they should demand or expect it. Especially when they still can withdraw their money.

From a fresh (non-invested) perspective, I think the view of this would depend on what they viewed as "the game". For people who saw the base game as the game, the $15 and $30 tier levels would be "bonuses". For people who looked at all the content created at launch as "the game", it would look like content was being cut for the $15 and Non-Kickstarter tiers.

If you want to look at it from a non-invested perspective you shouldn't invest and wait till the game is made. Then you can look at it and see if the content is "whole" enough to justify the pricetag attached to it.

I believe you greatly overestimate my artistic skills.

No, but I believe in your skills for a properly picture search on the internet and some minor resizing skills. When I can do it, believe me, you can do it, too

Instead of nitpicking your posts I will answer with this to summarize my opinion of your at least partly valid points:

Principles here or not I think you should chill a bit down here. The pictures are really not mentionworthy as gamecontent. I bought a car. The car has a special place for a bottleopener from the car company (and the bottle opener can be used as a double-drinkholder in a special case). And guess what? The bottleopener isn't standard equipment anymore. I have to buy it separately (around 20€). Does that mean I shouldn't have bought the car alltogether? Sure, it's nice to have it but in relation to the whole car it isn't really mentionworthy.

 

[Dexter]

except you exclude a few portraits from the majority of your backers.

Codex Reactions 101: Get butthurt about anything even if it doesn't actually affect you in any real way.

Codex. Codex never changes.

4/10, you missed integral terminology like entitled, didn't allude to everyone against it being homophobic and didn't invoke artistic integrity.

Principles here or not I think you should chill a bit down here. The pictures are really not mentionworthy as gamecontent. I bought a car. The car has a special place for a bottleopener from the car company (and the bottle opener can be used as a double-drinkholder in a special case). And guess what? The bottleopener isn't standard equipment anymore. I have to buy it separately (around 20€). Does that mean I shouldn't have bought the car alltogether? Sure, it's nice to have it but in relation to the whole car it isn't really mentionworthy.

Oh boy, you always know the discussion is heading the right way when car analogies come into play, everybody knows cars are the best things you can compare software components to.

 

[Morkar Left]

Oh boy, you always know the discussion is heading the right way when car analogies come into play, everybody knows cars are the best things you can compare software components to.

I'm comparing production costs in a relation. The production costs for a bunch of additional portraits in a game are as negligible as a special bottleopener in a car. Should be easily understandable for you.

 

[Dexter]

Oh boy, you always know the discussion is heading the right way when car analogies come into play, everybody knows cars are the best things you can compare software components to.

I'm comparing production costs in a relation. The production costs for a bunch of additional portraits in a game are as negligible as a special bottleopener in a car. Should be easily understandable for you.

What production costs would that be? Your bottle openers are likely a lot more expensive to make since they are actual tangible objects beholden to natural scarcity and with design and material costs, the portraits are drawn, digitalized and forever be spread through the wonders of bits and bytes.
Your comparison would also be a lot more apt if the bottle opener would cost people as much as the entire car (let's assume that car prices and circumstances of purchase are the same as video games - because for some reason that makes sense for a lot of people) and because of some oddity of nature people would actually pay that money because they felt compelled to get the "complete car", and the car salesman knew this and despite it being only a fraction of the cost or effort to manufacture used it to drive people to pay double the car price.

Did any of that make sense? No? Well, car analogies have that about them...

Also are you actually bringing up "production costs" of a few portraits for a crowd-funded project that didn't even enter proper design stage at this point? I know that's usually the hoot in these Pro-DLC arguments "It wasn't part of the original development budget graaa!", but it seems astoundingly off to even mention in this special case.

 

[Black]

Wasteland 2 is the worst thing to have happened so far to Codex in 2012.
And it's not even in production yet!

 

[Temaperacl]

Are the $15 donators losing out on the pictures or are the $30s getting the pictures extra? From a mechanical standpoint, they are equivalent.

That's where I disagree. They don't lose anything. Not even the additional pictures because they weren't promised before. That's why I don't consider them equivalent.

Perhaps I wasn't clear what I meant - what I meant by a "mechanical standpoint" was a standpoint that was looking purely at the condition of how things are without emotional interpretation - In either case, the $15 tier does not have the pictures and the $30 tier does. Regardless of how you percieve that difference, disregarding the viewers opinion of it, the state is identical.

We could discuss that the 15$ tier should have get something too (maybe the pictures, maybe the docu) that they don't feel left behind to the other donaters. This would have been probably a smarter business move but I don't think they should demand or expect it. Especially when they still can withdraw their money.

The fact they can still pull out their money is a valid argument against claiming that $15ers are being treated unfairly. I would also concur that people should be monitoring their pledge up until it is actually taken to adjust for things like this or other changes. On the other hand, I assume they wouldn't withdraw the money unless they felt that they were being treated unfairly.

If you want to look at it from a non-invested perspective you shouldn't invest and wait till the game is made. Then you can look at it and see the content is "whole" enough to justify the pricetag attached to it.

Not-yet-invested, then. That is, someone who has not yet put money into the KS but is considering it.

Instead of nitpicking your posts I will answer with this to summarize my opinion of your at least partly valid points:

Principles here or not I think you should chill a bit down here.

Is this towards me or the posters in support of this in general? If it is towards me, I'm not sure how I would calm down unless I go to sleep - I don't agree with it, but the decision is already made, and I'm not exactly worked up about it. I'm not sure what would give the impression that I was. The only things I can think of are the emphasis used and the length of my posts - If it was emphasis used in my posts, those are purely for actual emphasis - to clarify that the primary point of the sentence what the highlighted part. If it was the length of my posts, that is just my posting style in any sort of discussion of this sort - break out the target posts and address each point to a point I consider sufficient (or until I run out of time). If it was something else, what part of my posts has given the impression that I am worked up or upset about this?

If it was towards those of use who hold roughly the same position in general, then feel free to ignore the previous paragraph.

The pictures are really not mentionworthy as gamecontent. I bought a car. The car has a special place for a bottleopener from the car company (and the bottle opener can be used as a double-drinkholder in a special case). And guess what? The bottleopener isn't standard equipment anymore. I have to buy it separately (around 20€). Does that mean I shouldn't have bought the car alltogether? Sure, it's nice to have it but in relation to the whole car it isn't really mentionworthy.

At what point does it become mention worthy? I simply make it easy by drawing the line at simple inclusion - if it is in the game, it is something that needs to be looked at. That doesn't mean that it will automatically be a deal-breaker for me. In this case, it certainly isn't - I don't have any plan to reduce my pledge and am considering adding another couple hundred in. It just means that I have to look at it and decide if the negative aspect of that is override the positive aspects of everything else. However, I still see it as a negative aspect, and therefore mentionworthy in the right circumstances.

For the car example, I would point out that games are not cars and that cupholders are physical objects with a per-item cost. However, in that case it would depend on:
(A) If you supported or opposed non-standard physical equipment in cars
(B) How important the bottle opener was you

If you had no problem with non-standard equipment in cars and the bottle opener was important to you, it might not stop you from buying the car, but why wouldn't you mention it? Depending on the details of the situation, for 20€, you very well may have been able to get the dealer to throw it in if it is the difference between a sale at a certain pricepoint or not. Worst case, you can use the fact that the car doesn't have what you want as a bargaining point to drive down, even slightly, the target price. And if it is something you want to be included standard, why wouldn't you mention it? Your feedback will probably be ignored, but if you don't say anything it will definately be ignored.

If you did oppose non-standard equipment in cars for some reason, you would have to make the decision if the cupholder was major enough to stop you from buying the car.

 

[Havoc]

Wasteland 2 is the worst thing to have happened so far to Codex in 2012.
And it's not even in production yet!

Now... now imagine... imagine the butthurt when W2 gets made... and it's... it's the next Daikatana... or worse... it's worse than ARCANIA!
Even in my imagination, it's a nightmare!

 

[Morkar Left]

Oh boy, you always know the discussion is heading the right way when car analogies come into play, everybody knows cars are the best things you can compare software components to.

I'm comparing production costs in a relation. The production costs for a bunch of additional portraits in a game are as negligible as a special bottleopener in a car. Should be easily understandable for you.

What production costs would that be? Your bottle openers are likely a lot more expensive to make since they are actual tangible objects beholden to natural scarcity and with design and material costs, the portraits are drawn, digitalized and forever be spread through the wonders of bits and bytes.
Your comparison would also be a lot more apt if the bottle opener would cost people as much as the entire car (let's assume that car prices and circumstances of purchase are the same as video games - because for some reason that makes sense for a lot of people) and because of some oddity of nature people would actually pay that money because they felt compelled to get the "complete car", and the car salesman knew this and despite it being only a fraction of the cost or effort to manufacture used it to drive people to pay double the car price.

Did any of that make sense? No? Well, car analogies have that about them...

Also are you actually bringing up "production costs" of a few portraits for a crowd-funded project that didn't even enter proper design stage at this point? I know that's usually the hoot in these Pro-DLC arguments "It wasn't part of the original development budget graaa!", but it seems astoundingly off to even mention in this special case.

Your post makes no sense. But for other reasons you may think. I shouldn't take your answer serious but ok, I give you some hints:
- it takes time to make these pictures. Somebody has to make them and somebody gets paid for it. Time is money etc.
- even software needs resources (even if you cut out the human resource)
For you to help you to make some further assumptions on your own:
- a bottleopener costs 20 € each one, number of available bottleopeners unknown (profit per bottleopener, too)
- for the portraits costs are unknown for us but the number of backers who get them is known

 

[Morkar Left]

Perhaps I wasn't clear what I meant - what I meant by a "mechanical standpoint" was a standpoint that was looking purely at the condition of how things are without emotional interpretation - In either case, the $15 tier does not have the pictures and the $30 tier does. Regardless of how you percieve that difference, disregarding the viewers opinion of it, the state is identical.

No, I got what you meant. But you can't see it this way. Just because someone other has a apple and an orange doesn't make your apple bad or smaller.

Is this towards me or the posters in support of this in general? If it is towards me, I'm not sure how I would calm down unless I go to sleep - I don't agree with it, but the decision is already made, and I'm not exactly worked up about it. I'm not sure what would give the impression that I was. The only things I can think of are the emphasis used and the length of my posts - If it was emphasis used in my posts, those are purely for actual emphasis - to clarify that the primary point of the sentence what the highlighted part. If it was the length of my posts, that is just my posting style in any sort of discussion of this sort - break out the target posts and address each point to a point I consider sufficient (or until I run out of time). If it was something else, what part of my posts has given the impression that I am worked up or upset about this?

I didn't saw you upset but the amount of effort you put into such a minor thing is over the top. Principles are only a good thing as long as they guide you in the right direction. I don't think that all this arguing is in relation to the matter (a bunch of pictures).

If you had no problem with non-standard equipment in cars and the bottle opener was important to you, it might not stop you from buying the car, but why wouldn't you mention it?

Because I already got a deal that was good enough (above average) that it wuldn't make sense to demand it (but I asked if it's in). It's completely obvious that it wouldn't be a dealbreaker. And hadn't I read about it before I wouldn't have known about it and wouldn't even miss it.

And that's basically the same case with the 15$ tier. If they wouldn't know about it they wouldn't miss it. And I think with 15$ they get a good deal. And with 30$ they get an even better deal imho (they could even sell the additional free copy for 15$ again and keep the rest...).

 

[Stinger]

For the record many commenters on the Shadowrun Kickstarter are asking the dev to put the extra content for everyone, even though all these people have backed the amount.

If you feel the portraits and icons shouldn't be cut from the game, and assuming most people here have backed $30+, then comment on the update that you feel ingame content shouldn't be made exclusive for those who paid extra and you say this as someone who already has paid the amount. Say that you feel that the prizes should be ancilliary things like the novella rather than 'item pack dlc'. If fans convinced Fargo that social elements are dumb in WL2, then surely they can convince him that they don't feel extra ingame content being cut for certain buyers is ok for the game either.

This is Kickstarter, unlike publishers Fargo will actually listen.

 

[Black]

This is Kickstarter, unlike publishers Fargo will actually listen.

OR WILL HE?!

Maybe we've created a monster!!

 

[Jaesun]

Is there a link to the stream for when it goes live?

 

[Nattvardsvin]

Fargo is going to tweet the link. Don't know when though.

And as soon as I wrote that, he just tweeted it.
http://sv.twitch.tv/inxile_entertainment

 

[Johannes]

It just makes no sense to not include all of your portraits for everyone. It rubs people the wrong way to know that you either have to pay more or turn to illicit means to get the full portrait set, because the devs decreed that your 15$ which you gave to get a complete game, then in the end gives you only a limited portrait set. And probably next to nobody actually values a portrait pack by such amount, that they'd genuinely want to fork in such money just for portraits, so the choice is - take the inferior version for 15$ or give more in order to support this exclusive content scheme? Honestly, just try to find someone who will say that they got the 30$ tier because the move to not give everyone full portrait set was so wonderful that it prompted them to give more... Then compare that to the amount of people who get vary of this shit, and it just doesn't even make business sense anymore to make exclusive game content, and that's how we should keep it.
At first the came for the portraits, and I did not speak out -
Because I was not a portrait.

I won't ever pay extra for shit like portraits, nor will I probably care enough to start downloading packs of them, but definitely it ever so slightly improves my gameplay experience to have wide portrait selection - it is nice to have enough of them that there's enough ones you like to make more than one party without reusing them.

The cost might be small in comparison to most things, but it could go toward anything else still that'd be usable by everyone, like more NPCs would get their own portraits etc.


Oh and the basic 15$ makes you pick between the Windows and Linux versions? Fuck that shit, I thought I was paying for a license which allows me to play the game under whatever computer/platform I like, no such luck it seems...

 

[lulurkinglurkerlurk]

They already discussing mod tools on by stream chat.
People..

 

[Temaperacl]

No, I got what you meant. But you can't see it this way. Just because someone other has a apple and an orange doesn't make your apple bad or smaller.

True, but it does mean that they have an apple and an orange and you only have an apple. As I said, your argument that they could withdraw their pledge seems sound to me with the only counter argument I can think of a matter of time - in order for "withdraw their pledge" to be valid, they need time to react. What is the proper time frame before it becomes too short to be able to be used as a valid reason? This change was made less than 3 days before the end - does that count as enough time?

I didn't saw you upset but the amount of effort you put into such a minor thing is over the top. Principles are only a good thing as long as they guide you in the right direction. I don't think that all this arguing is in relation to the matter (a bunch of pictures).

I think there are a few of points here:
1) The amount of effort I've put into this has been relatively minimal as far as these things go - there are only 6 pages or so in this thread, mostly of fairly short posts.

2) The arguing was triggered by the portraits, but is fundamentally about the idea of exclusive content, regardless of the amount. That is one of the reason the "just portraits" is not convincing people - because they view it as a bad thing regardless of the level of the inclusion. The only way to sway them (us) would be to make the argument that it is not, in fact, a bad thing.

3) As long as there is a counter argument being presented, what is the problem with arguing about it? I would agree with you if it were this many pages of everybody agreeing with each other, but with two disagreeing sides it will naturally go around until either one side is convinced, a compromise position is reached, everybody runs out of steam or drifts off, or people give up in disgust.

4) Finally, can't speak for anyone else , but besides my first post and the finish up of this last one, this has all been done in "dead time" when I wouldn't have gotten anything more productive done anyhow.

And that's basically the same case with the 15$ tier. If they wouldn't know about it they wouldn't miss it. And I think with 15$ they get a good deal. And with 30$ they get an even better deal imho (they could even sell the additional free copy for 15$ again and keep the rest...).

Fair enough. I agree with all these points. The tiers, especially the low-level ones are still a good deal. That doesn't address the issue I fundamentally have a problem with: That the game is now tiered based on how much you put in and if you were put the money in in the KS timeframe or not.

 

[mindx2]

Does anyone else find it ironic that the wrap party is being broadcast on a web channel called "TWITCH"?

 

[Nattvardsvin]

So already the chatroom seems to be infested with some /v/tards.

 

[Zed]

Does anyone else find it ironic that the wrap party is being broadcast on a web channel called "TWITCH"?

Heh.
Well, twitch.tv is probably the best out of all the live streaming websites. ustream sucks, livestream sucks.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Now... now imagine... imagine the butthurt when W2 gets made... and it's... it's the next Daikatana... or worse... it's worse than ARCANIA!

then I will see you on codex steam group and we can all team up together in mass effect V: children of the shepard's co-op campaign

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

While I am not in favour of any kind of exclusive in-game content, I honestly can't help but feel that the whole extra portraits thing is a complete non-issue, unless you insist on taking it completely out of context and debate solely as a matter of principle. Some could of course opt for another standpoint and argue that the person who should really complain here is the hypothetical backer who decided to pledge/upgrade to the $15 tier solely because they crave the extra portraits, since, in reality, >99% of the extra money will be spent on making the game better, thus benefiting the $15 freeloader crowd. Or you could instead try to define what an RPG is, decide what can change the nature of a man, and contemplate whether beauty is true and truth is beautiful.

Or, you could opt for Stinger's boringly practical suggestion and use your vote as a backer to ask BF and co. on Kickstarter/InXile forums to release the portrait pack for everybody.