Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[BlackGoat]

Yooo,
When does Valkyrie get Lady of the Spear? And where does the Hermit's Knife drop?

 

[Haplo]

Valkyrie is a middle progression class, so High Master skill is earned at level 32 (26 for basic classes, 36 for advanced classes).

Hermit's Knife... not sure, didn't find one. Could be Royal Tomb. It's quite late-game.
Personally I'd rather recruit a monster ninja, like Dragonfly, to the party
Faster, easier, looks better and has a... hrm... charming personality.

 

[BlackGoat]

Hrm, my Valkyrie is lvl 36... Are High Master skills automatically earned or is it random?
I want my duel spears

 

[Exbelion]

Master Ninjas and Samurai ghosts are good summons too, specially the samurais from the Royal Tomb with a beheading rate of over 40%.
Those ghosts are brutal. Nues are good summons too :D

 

[Haplo]

Hrm, my Valkyrie is lvl 36... Are High Master skills automatically earned or is it random?
I want my duel spears

Automatic. You should already have it. Note it does not allow you to equip 2 standard spears. Rather use a spear in the main hand and a Sub weapon in the offhand. Like a shield or short blade. Your're unlikely to find a Sub-type spear before post-game. There are like 3 of them total and most post-game only.

Master Ninjas and Samurai ghosts are good summons too, specially the samurais from the Royal Tomb with a beheading rate of over 40%.
Those ghosts are brutal. Nues are good summons too :D

I meant to convert the Dragonfly to a regular party member via Spirit Pact. Master Ninja will work too, but he's considerably more difficult to capture (higher level, more dangerous with 2 actions and self-destruct) and doesn't have a 35% Charm chance. Has 10% in various other ailments, but I prefer Dragonflies' Charm. As a Summon, Master Ninja is good tho.
Nue too (makes a great spirit pact party Samurai btw.), but he's near end game. Also 80% Summon Resist and 80% Status Recovery coupled with Restore skill make him a tricky opponent to capture. Totally worth it tho.

 

[BlackGoat]

Automatic. You should already have it. Note it does not allow you to equip 2 standard spears. Rather use a spear in the main hand and a Sub weapon in the offhand. Like a shield or short blade. Your're unlikely to find a Sub-type spear before post-game. There are like 3 of them total and most post-game only.

ooooh, ok. Coo coo coo

 

[aweigh]

BlackGoat

the optimal configuration/use of the valkyrie's high mastery is:

- have her use a 2-handed spear in her main-hand
- use an L-ranged "weapon" weapon in her off-hand until you get to the post-game and find sub-spears.
- move her to the back-row and re-arrange your party so that someone previously back-row is now front-row. it's a good time to class-change someone.

ninjas are great at either front or back row, and clerics (not bishops) also make great candidates for stepping up to the front row. shaman lack the armor class to make good front-row chars until the post-game; however thieves, bards, hunters, and servants all work about the same front row or back row.

you can get a sword for the thief/bard by completing a quest which automatically makes thieves/bards excellent damage dealers.

at any rate, the valk's high mastery ability is simple bonus damage or bonus armor class. she gets to continue using the same main-hand weaponry (OP spears) but now additionally has option to equip a sub-type weapon, of which there are many good ones, or a shield. there is no down-side and it's "always on" type of ability; easily one of the best high mastery abilities.

 

[moraes]

Found this amusing article while searching for "You touched it!": http://legendsoflocalization.com/why-are-the-bishops-in-elminage-touching-things/

WHY ARE THE BISHOPS IN ELMINAGE TOUCHING THINGS?
A reader named Andrea sent this e-mail in about a game I’d never heard of before:

hello! i just found your legend of localization site after searching for the infamous “war of kangaroo” mistranslation on google!

i had a request about a somewhat obscure PSP dungeon crawler called elminage original, this game had an american translation but they botched several aspect of it, for example there is an item called the “future book” which give you random message upon use but some of the message don’t work, one of the hidden boss in the game (i can’t remember the name but she’s blindfolded and holds a scale and a sword so it should be easy to recognize) also had a special message which too doesn’t work

most amusingly the game had a lot of non-sensical translation, the most infamous one being that when you failed to identify an item the game exclaimed “YOU TOUCHED IT!” any idea how this could have happened?

here’s a list of various translation fuck up in case you want to know more

I’ve never played this game, but it actually looks really cool!

Anyway, I had some theories on what might’ve caused this “You touched it!” mistranslation, but it took a surprisingly long while to finally track it down. Here’s a look at the line in both versions of the game:

Japanese PSP release English PSP release
For reference, this happens after a bishop character tries to identify an item but fails. When this happens, the character falls into a panic-like state that has to be healed before further item identification can be done.

When this identification fails, the Japanese text says “さわってしまった!” which comes from the verb さわる (sawaru). This word has a few different meanings – the main one is “to touch/feel”, but another is “to become irritated”. So my initial instinct was that the translator didn’t have any context information and decided to go with the safer “to touch” meaning when the latter might’ve been more appropriate.

But digging a little deeper, it seems that this line might actually be an homage to the Famicom Wizardry games, which I hear had a strong cult following in Japan back in the day.

I know nothing about the Wizardry games, but a quick English Google search turned up this mention of bishops, item identification, fear status, and a “You touched it!” line:

Those all fit the bill perfectly!

So, assuming this Wizardry connection is indeed true, then the line in Elminage, “YOU TOUCHED IT!” might not be a mistranslation at all – it seems to be a reference to the old Wizardry games. One that might’ve even survived being translated back and forth over the years, wow!

Still, that’s a lot of guesswork on my part, so if anyone out there can provide any further info or insight, or if you can get an English or Japanese screenshot of the Wizardry line, please let me know on Twitter or post in the comments below!

 

[BlackGoat]

Beat Cyclanos. Now the post-gam.

Rolling a Samurai (innocent), Fighter (innocent), Valkyrie (w/ mage/alch), Lord (w/ mage/alch, Thief (that I intend to make a ninja, tho a hermit's knife would be nice), and an Alchemist (w/ mage/cleric).

What sort of changes might be smart to make? I understand a pure fighter isn't necessarily the best thing to have in these three dungeons.

 

[aweigh]

yes, somebody tell the addict that elminage games = made by ex Wizardry devs. almost everything in the games can be traced back to wizardry... including the touching. Anybody who's played wizardry would immediately know that.

What *I* found interesting is how, apparently, the japanese-lang PSP ver. of E: Original needed to have the textures changed on the windows for the English-lang localization.

notice how the japanese version utilizes perfectly good english language nomeclature on the textures/headers of that identification window whereas the localized psp version replaced those good textures with half-assed ones without any seeming need.

I can guess why they did it though:

- notice how "far" the japanese characters reach in the left pic (jap pic)
- notice how far the english language chars reach in the right pic (localized pic)

they had to hack in a Variable Width font table for the localization and apparently, (not the case with all games), this required hacking the textures as well.

lotta work, and it was probably all done by 1 or 2 peeps paid low wages with very little time, as the psp localization is infamous for someo f its "quirks". My favorite being thieves being "Expart Thief", hehe.

the pc localization of e: gothic fared much better and I consider it one of the better localizations i've seen yet. they managed to keep the mysterious, cryptic "ambiance" perfectly intact. even so, there are at least 4 typos that i've noticed in the PC ver's localization as well as 2 npc dialogs in the post-game still in japanese. hah.

 

[Haplo]

BlackGoat

the optimal configuration/use of the valkyrie's high mastery is:

- have her use a 2-handed spear in her main-hand
- use an L-ranged "weapon" weapon in her off-hand until you get to the post-game and find sub-spears.
- move her to the back-row and re-arrange your party so that someone previously back-row is now front-row. it's a good time to class-change someone.

ninjas are great at either front or back row, and clerics (not bishops) also make great candidates for stepping up to the front row. shaman lack the armor class to make good front-row chars until the post-game; however thieves, bards, hunters, and servants all work about the same front row or back row.

An L-range weapon for the offhand is a good suggestion. Trouble is, I don't think there are lots of great ones usable by Valks.
And I've heavily considered moving my Valk to the back row. But ultimately decided against it. Being able to easily attack and eliminate targets in the enemy back row is priceless sometimes.

A ninja works almost as good in the back, as he does in the front. Well, almost. On the other hand, with L-range weapons they can also attack the enemy back row, which is, again, often very beneficial. Lots of nice thrown weapons too, unfortunately most of the best ones are limited to main-hand only. But I sacrificed my best ore to make her Kutneslika offhand L-range. Later, when the Ninja has a ton of AC due to their class AC decrease every 3 levels ability, his/her party position may be reconsidered to make him/her a primary tank. But it takes time for this skill to really shine.

you can get a sword for the thief/bard by completing a quest which automatically makes thieves/bards excellent damage dealers.

I think you mean Full Body Swing. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. But his Samurai will appreciate it as much as a Thief or Bard.

Beat Cyclanos. Now the post-gam.

Rolling a Samurai (innocent), Fighter (innocent), Valkyrie (w/ mage/alch), Lord (w/ mage/alch, Thief (that I intend to make a ninja, tho a hermit's knife would be nice), and an Alchemist (w/ mage/cleric).

What sort of changes might be smart to make? I understand a pure fighter isn't necessarily the best thing to have in these three dungeons.

A pure Fighter is good.. as long as he's male.. There's a crazy ax restricted to male Fighters available roughly half-way trough the final dungeon. He can do some sick damage with that.

 

[BlackGoat]

Awesome, just had a Hermit's Knife drop on b5f of Soldier of the Giant Gods

 

[Exbelion]

Awesome, just had a Hermit's Knife drop on b5f of Soldier of the Giant Gods

Wow, you are already at the fifth floor, thats amazing, get ready because the lower floors are nastier, specially against Samael, Katos dragon, Demon Lords and Maelstrom. I wont spoil anything, but you will know them once you see them.

Speaking of which, you may have encountered Samael up to this point, but they are more frequent on the lower floors.

Speaking of which, Samael starts to show up from BF4, but they encountered more often on the lower floors.

Honestly, Soldier and Ibag were the hardest dungeons in the game for me

 

[BlackGoat]

Soldier's seemed pretty easy to me so far, tho perhaps I'm overleveled? My crew is pretty legit.

 

[Haplo]

Eventually you'll feel the heat at Ibag, particularly the higher levels.
But yeah, for a solid, well equipped party Soldier is not too bad.
Some enemies at the Ancient Cave can be scary at first, but in the end it's not too difficult either.

Ibag's has quite a few more challengers.

 

[Exbelion]

Elminage Gothic has one of, if not the best postgame content ever seen on a dungeon crawler, I mean the Ibag Tower, with its insane difficulty and its 20 floors is more than enough por a postgame dungeon, but we also get to explore a creepy living dungeon and a cool retro dungeon reminiscent of the first Wizardry titles, which by the way features an awesome chiptune soundtrack and tons of references to old Wizardry titles, plus we get an item which allows to use monsters as character portraits, just awesome
The nostalgia is real on Cave of the Ancients :')

 

[BlackGoat]

So yeah, Soldier bf8 is rough men.

 

[aweigh]

lol get ready boys

 

[aweigh]

...these are two different wipes, btw.

 

[aweigh]

video showcasing the (situational, but still highly useful) usage of ex-skill level drain to take the bite right out of the enemies. it worked so nicely on these birds because lowering their levels lowered their Hit Die and that results in the game recalculating that shit which in turn drastically lowers their breath attack power.

honestly, i was just already "over them", really; i think by the time i recorded this beat down on these birds i was already getting wiped / tangling with ancient dragons in the last floors. still...

- level drain
- chi wave
- swallow killer (although chi wave is an arguably better alternative; both will get the job done)
- brace
- shout (tied to the shouter's level, so a level 150 char shouting at enemies will still work; i would make tower fools lose their turns constantly with this skill)
- and lastly, having a dedicated Cleric to guarantee safe resurrections (because otherwise it means your peeps turning to ash and that entails either wasting a MIRACLE to revive everyone, or hoofing it back to town cos DIOMANTE not worky in the Tower); plus, only my Cleric was really even able to half-way decently heal my characters without having to waste a ton of spells.

i actually turned my post-game lord into a Fighter (higher damage output) and then turned my entire-game's-worth Thief into the aforementioned Priest; then i changed my bishop into a Shaman (giving up the convenience of identifying items inside the tower...), and the other 3 were the requisite innocent alchemist, a samurai that i was constantly considering changing into a Herbalist just to have access to Magic Herbs buuuut in the end, thankfully, noticed that samura's swallow return's random chance to activate and simply nullify completely an enemy's melee attack (not to mention return the attack) was pretty much saving my entire party's asses tons of times... i.e. i noticed that it was my samurai's swallow return triggering that would constantly "catch" behead-happy Tower enemies before they got a chance to do their dirty work, and that is simply priceless.

- fighter -> lord -> ended up back Fighter, due to fighter's insanely higher dmg output regardless of weaponry. the big loss was losing access to Court Sanctuary but that just menat i had to re-arrange / re-smith everyone's equipment appropriately.

- fighter -> samurai - this guy's swallow return literally saved my ass countless times inside the tower.

- original bishop -> changed to a thief upon finding Hermit's Knife in royal tomb, then immediately changed to Ninja (didn't finish the Bishop spells, obviously) -> then in the Tower finally ended up as my Cleric: (used the "ruby shoes" item).

what can i say? less accuracy than the thief when attacking in melee, but the access to post-game hammers/maces/clubs was extraordinary; but his real job was being johnny-on-the-spot with heals/resurrects and combo-ing IMMOLARATI + a MIRACLE from someone else to regain the MPs if the encounter called for it.

- the original thief -> became bishop when the original bishop became a thief in order to become a ninja (heh) -> then in the tower changed from bishop to -> shaman. Unlike with the priest change had to do him from lv1, but luckily by then i had like 3 million gp for boosting his levels upon class change.

At first my i thought i would get use out of Barrier but fuck that; shaman's get access to arguably the best weapons in the entire game. Combined with 2 or 3 charms equipped on them, and wielding either a Shaman-only 2-handed katana or a Shaman-only Bow/Whip and they are beautiful glass cannons. Way more useful than my bishop.... but not being able to identify items inside the tower is a HUGE consideration.

- alchemist. He/she is there to smith, as always. Wielding an Aura Punch smithed to the extremes, nothing much to say here really.

- originally a second samurai, but half-way through the game used protectorate to make him evil then changed him to ninja, no knife, from lv1, so... yep, a ninja. truth be told the best use i got out of him was using his great AC by using his turn to DEFEND other weaker party members.

if it weren't for that, i wish i had left him as a 2nd samurai, honestly; samurai's swallow return is life-saving when dealing w/ post-game enemies. there is simply nothing more useful than a (good chance) of that triggering and simply nullyfing that round's melee attacks (which would all behead, and which were part of a GROUP ATTACK ability) from the enemy onslaught.

shaman's exotic post-game katanas put anything ninjas get to utter shame.

In the 16th floor of the Tower you will find a sword, "Soul Eater Sword", which when "invoked" its SP property grants the char access to 3 "levels" of 3 MP's of SUMMONING contracting. 3 3's. i had my newly minted Fighter (previously the lord) use it, and that's how i grinded my way to poke-capturing some fools. Note that I lowered the resistances that were 100% (belial, for example) to 95%, simply because i think it's bad design as it necessitates having a brawler to clean hit.

95% still proved to be hours of grinding. BTW, makes me wonder: do actual summoners have better chances of contracting? my fighter, via his soul eater sword granted Contracting powers, seemed to contract at the same rate a summoner would. What exactly do summoners have then that's so hot? Spirit pact, i suppose, to create OP chars, which is fun.

never tried out Therion skill, really.

 

[BlackGoat]

Cave of the Ancients is so good, wish I could play the entire game like this. So pure

 

[aweigh]

i agree. i've never mentioned this before but the real, honest to god real reason i'm now doing my 4th playthrough of gothic is simply because of the cave of the ancients.

after clearing wizardry scenarios 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6... and more than that, after then playing through wizardry empire 2, then 1 and then 3 (although 1 and 3 were following translated wiki)...

plaything thru the CotA is simply one of the best dungeon experiences i've ever had. the Music is amazing, it is incredibly atmospheric for such a simple arrangement of bleeps and bloops; the enemy selection is impeccable and my gawd, i may be crazy saying this but i think i have never seen more beautiful wire-frames in my life!

it is hypnotic, and the entire experience was made by Starfish purely to indulge the true wizardry aficionados (as well as those who played their wiz empire titles), and half the cave is full of NPCs that make cryptic references to Wiz empire games, and the other half is split into 25% making not-so-cryptic remarks about how:

- elminage is a world within the "Wizardry world" that was created by a dragon

and the last remaining npcs, including the masters, i'm still not sure whether they reference the world (bees going extinct, and the fact that you win the game when you bring the last remaining bees to the King); or whether it's an attempt to ruminate on the nature of this type of game-play.

in any case, i need only hear the beginning tones of the CotA's BGM and i am done for the day...

P.S. the way the CotA's "wraps up" also makes me think of / remember how the wizardry scenarios were beginning to be "written", specifically scenarios 3 and 4. (stuff like the rabbit).

 

[aweigh]

BlackGoat

this is the most "Wizardry"-provoking dialog, ambiance, feeling, look and game-play i have ever felt other than playing the first 5 scenarios:



"How does it feel to roam the underground mazes?" - hooded figure

 

[aweigh]

"The Ancient Caves.
This place used to be called a 'Seal of Evil'.
...In the darkness you will see only white lines" - another figure

now that is how you do cryptic writing. wow. i doff my cap to the localization team/person.

 

[Exbelion]

Is there a way to mod the PC game to make the graphics look like white lines? You know...to give the whole game a retro feel, that would be awesome :D