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Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

Serus

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Exactly - then why you claimed that the maps are a good addition to E:Gothic and not a useless (and annoying to some people) gimmick (which they truly are) ? Or did i misunderstood your position on the matter ? You just seem to like everything about this game... :D

I already have the goblin map and i read about the other (unbreakable one) somewhere - probably in this thread. This is why i wrote what i wrote.
The devs could have balanced the usable maps to make them really meaningful (and at the same time needed for a large part of the game) but hey, no ! Why would they bother ? They decided to make this meaningless addition to this game to show what ? That they are truly "hardcore" or something ? Well, they are judging by E: Gothic (and i truly appreciate that) - but not because of the usable maps.

Ok: Rant mode about usable maps in E: Gothic = off
 

aweigh

Arcane
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
18,145
Location
Florida
@sergus

Then i'll be cleerer:

- ALL RPGS BENEFIT FROM HAVING EVERY SINGLE MECHANCI TIED TO A RESOURCE.

- ALL RPGS BENEFIT FROM HAVING A RESOURCE WHICH DOVEITALS INTO THE GAMEPLAY MECHANICS.

- THE MORE IMPORTANT THE RESOURCE THEN THE SCARCER, OR THE HIGHER THE ESTOERIC COST.

- IN DUNGEON CRAWLERS WHILE HAVING A STRONG EMPHASINS ON PARTY-BUILDING AND MANAGEMENT AND A HEAVY EMPHASIS ON CONFLICT RESOLUTION THROUGH COMBAT COLLOQUIALLY KNOWN AS 'BLOB COMBAT'; HOWEVER THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT PARTY-BUILDING AND CHARACTER ADVANCEMENT, NOR EITHER THE ACQUISION OF LOOT BY THE KILLLING OF THE ENEMY:

NONE OF THOSE ARE THE PRIMARY DRIVING FORCE OF THE DUNGEON CRAWLING SUB GENRE, WITHIN WHICH ARE BOTH TURN BASED AFFAIRS AND ALSO THERE ARE SEVERAL GMAES THAT ARE NOT TURN BASED AND INSTEAD THE SUPERFICIAL LAYER OF THE CONFLICT RESOLUTION MECHANICS ARE EXECUTED BY THE GAME IN WHAT HUMANITY CALLS "REAL TIME".

- LASTLY: HAVIG SAID THE ABOVE IT SHOULD BMDDDMAJUDDA[AAA[A PAINFULLY OBVIOUS THE MAIN AND TO THIS DAY (!) THE ACTUALLY CURRENT IS.

THEREFORE THE GAME'S MOST ITEMS, SUCH AS THE MAGIC MAP (sPELL ANEM DIOSDI`NEVER REACH THE AHCPDP-DSJJASSSPA
 

hackncrazy

Savant
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
415
aweigh, or anyone who cares to answer.

I'm taking some days off work the next week and I'll only have my psp as a gaming companion. For what I've heard, Elminage Gothic is only in JP for that console, so is a no-go for me.

So, knowing that I'm wanting a Dungeon Crawler to spend some time, should I go for Elminage Original or something else (like Class Of Heroes)? Is there anything better on PSP.

Also, is Elminage Original a lot worse than Gothic?
 

Dorarnae

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
721
aweigh, or anyone who cares to answer.

I'm taking some days off work the next week and I'll only have my psp as a gaming companion. For what I've heard, Elminage Gothic is only in JP for that console, so is a no-go for me.

So, knowing that I'm wanting a Dungeon Crawler to spend some time, should I go for Elminage Original or something else (like Class Of Heroes)? Is there anything better on PSP.

Also, is Elminage Original a lot worse than Gothic?

go for elminage original, it's easier than gothic but very similar and enjoyable. stay away from class of heroes unless you're really bored
 

hackncrazy

Savant
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
415
aweigh, or anyone who cares to answer.

I'm taking some days off work the next week and I'll only have my psp as a gaming companion. For what I've heard, Elminage Gothic is only in JP for that console, so is a no-go for me.

So, knowing that I'm wanting a Dungeon Crawler to spend some time, should I go for Elminage Original or something else (like Class Of Heroes)? Is there anything better on PSP.

Also, is Elminage Original a lot worse than Gothic?

go for elminage original, it's easier than gothic but very similar and enjoyable. stay away from class of heroes unless you're really bored

I will do this. Thanks a lot!
 

Haplo

Prophet
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Messages
6,560
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
About the maps being and unnecessary tedium I tend to agree.
Perhaps because I've never played the classic crawlers, where no mapping was included. Perhaps because my spatial orientation is very lacking. Perhaps because it hardly makes sense to have caves and such consist of a series of small rooms with doors every several steps.
The maps are not rare, they are not expensive. If the devs decided to make them a truly scarce resource, I'd respect this. I probably wouldn't play that game, but I'd respect the decision.

As it is, the maps only add to the already major pain of inventory management not-so-mini-game. I mean a fully equipped character has what, 2 open inventory slots? You could potentially carry some consumables, maybe a backup accessory to support another spell element or provide some resistance. Maybe a ranged weapon. Or a specific weapon against an enemy type. My Samurai already has 0 free slots without any consumables (he carries 2 ranged weapons in case I need to disable an enemy in the back). And the game simply showers you with loot. AND you'd want to carry several slots worth of magic maps? No way! Okay so you can find in dungeons some multi-use maps with over 60 charges, so these are better. But it's random and I struggle with inventory management too much as it is.
I bear with it, but barely (mostly due to the Mysterious Bag). If I had to juggle the inventory even more and lock a few of my slots with maps, I'd probably quit.
You may say that the goblin map is multi-use and may be repaired. Okay, so now the game restricts my choices and forces me to include an Alchemist in the party (cause 3 Pendeku uses just won't cut it).
And it's all pretty moot once you start Diomente-hopping all over the place and have 2 or more characters with full assortment of mage spells.
Actually the game almost forcing you to take certain classes, like Alchemist or Bishop is perhaps its greatest problem.

My first decision in this game was to install the cheat that prevents maps from disappearing after use.
 

BlackGoat

Arbiter
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
505
There shouldn't be any magic maps and dioseed should just give map coordinates. In my opinion
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,858
It definitely strikes me as bad design to make the maps consumable but also let you bring in like 70 of them at a time and make them cost basically nothing. It really doesn't encourage anything except another tedious step when you're resupplying back at town. The ID system, OTOH, is a huge incentive to bring a bishop along with you, and the traps are a huge incentive to bring a thief. Since the difference between races is pretty minimal and the builds for a given class don't have much variety to begin with, it really limits party diversity. Playing this mostly rekindled my interest in making another run through the Touhou crawlers, which had way more stuff to potentially build a party around. High initiative characters to handle dangerous speedy enemies, characters with good defensive pentration spells vs ones with enough raw power to overwhelm defenses vs ones that excelled vs enemies with low defenses but high hp pools, elemental variety vs attack range/speed/efficiency/power varieties, buffs and debuffs, character synergies... Not to mentioned the equipment was much more varied instead of being mostly strictly superior pieces of armour or weapons that are obviously getting used on the only characters than can wear them.
 

Gunnar

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Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
819
Regarding maps, I can say that it was what originally put me off from buying the game, along with the complaints about a limited inventory and crappy UI.

After playing the game, those things didn't bother me nearly as much as I thought they would. Scarcity of maps was a non issue, limited inventory is a non issue and you get used to the ghastly consolized UI.

I suppose I would agree that what is the point of including the map mechanic in a trivial form. They should have limited magic maps by making them more expensive or something. On the other hand, the mazes usually have no logical structure so navigating them without a map and trying to memorize it all would be a pain in the ass. For the record, I played with no mods and kept 1 inventory slot with 9 maps, as well I had 1 mage caster that eventually was able to cast the map spell 9 times. That was enough for me.

I played with ~10 open inventory slots, no bishop, no mysterious bag and the treasure chest ex-skill. There were a few times I had to reject loot. What I usually did was go through my inventory and chuck all the medicine and junk with a quantity, then pick up new loot. I usually abandoned 1-3 items in a run. No big deal really. Then I acquired teleport and it wasn't an issue at all.

Concerning the Bishop and his role identifying items in the game, my habit was just to use the pre-made Bishop in town to identify all my items. When he got low level I demon-grinded him up until his identify started to work again. I've never brought the Bishop along in my party. Also, you can shop-identify all items, they cost exactly as much to identify as you get for selling them, so all it means is you didn't make a profit from items if you use the shop. The only use I can see for the Bishop actually being in the party would be his ability to identify items as you are adventuring, which would allow you to discard lower quality items and take more better ones back to camp, as well as being able to use better gear you find while on the same dungeon run. While helpful, neither of these benefits are a "must-have" for me. Also, the Bishop has to be an insanely high level to identify items well or he will fail alot, which is super annoying. I usually just have him identify the bulk of my loot and then just shop identify the harder items to save time. Absolutely no issues with money.

I used an Alchemist until he was level 28, then I benched him and used him in exactly the same way as the Bishop. Unlike the Bishop, alchemy spells are essential to the party - but you don't have to use a pure Alchemist to get them.

Actually, before I discovered the ability to demon-grind, I always thought the purpose of including these 'must have' skills was to encourage you to make multiple parties. Your main party full of bruisers and badasses, and a support party that you leveled up to give you access to identify, disassemble, mixing, etc.

Lastly, let me just say that aweigh is a dirty rotten liar the Thief is not required to deal with traps in Ibags tower. The only time I ever noticed failing my traps was at the beginning-mid part of the game, not the end. Ninja is 99.9% effective on final floor of the tower. He must answer for this. :bunkertime:
 

Gunnar

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Jul 10, 2016
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819
People really do have a big problem with maps?! O_o
For me, I thought that I was going to have to draw my own maps. Which, despite having been a DM and created many grid maps and having grid paper literally right next to me as I play the game, I simply could not be assed to do.
 

aweigh

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Aug 23, 2005
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Florida
wow i hadn't slept for 2 days straight when i was writing that reply and i *think* i actually nodded off finally during the reply itself. reading it again now really made me laugh
 

Haplo

Prophet
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Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,560
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
People really do have a big problem with maps?! O_o
Well, I do, kinda. But, like I said, my spatial orientation sucks.
Also I can barely stomach the inventory minigame WITHOUT the added map tedium.

It is as Gunnar wrote. I also benched my Alchemist and Bishop. It's okayish, but the extra trips to town to ID stuff waste a lot of my limited play time, so not ideal.
And I cannot imagine playing that way without Mysterious Bag. 10 slots? That's like 1/4 of a dungeon floor, maybe. Trips to town all the time.
Also am kinda worried about future Ibag's. No Diomente means no fast ID trips back.
 

Serus

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Good going Serus, you broke aweigh.
I hope not. :D He seems to be ok in his latest post... <sigh of relief>

It definitely strikes me as bad design to make the maps consumable but also let you bring in like 70 of them at a time and make them cost basically nothing. It really doesn't encourage anything except another tedious step when you're resupplying back at town...
Someone feeling the same as me about this crucial and game-changing (and life-altering) issue, i feel much better.
Seriously tough, i couldn't word it better myself.
 

aweigh

Arcane
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Aug 23, 2005
Messages
18,145
Location
Florida
i still don't see how anyone could need that many viewings of a floor layout. still, if it helps anyone sperg out less, StarFish decided to make magic maps optional in the 3DS port.

i assume many people also complained; and I also assume that 99% of those that complained started first with Elminage and had not gone through the joy of drawing their own maps in Wizardry.

i mean, it's not like you have to be a fucking world cartographer here, folks, i don't even use graph paper:
20160110_150601_zpsbc2a8v56.jpg


20160110_150301_zps3u35rjsh.jpg


and like it was previously mentioned (by me), the game provides two quests, one very early on (tree dungeon) and one later on (green earth light cave) which give you an item with unlimited map viewings.
 

aweigh

Arcane
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
18,145
Location
Florida
as for the inventory "mini game" as it were... i agree, but on the flipside if Starfish didn't decide to keep every option in rougly the same place i would not have been able to pick up and play Elminage 2 and 3 on the PSP. By the time you finish Elminage: Gothic on PC, and (hopefully) also finish Elminage: Original on PSP your muscle memory for how to do what within menus is going to be so good you're going to be able to play Elmi 2 and 3 with, literally (not really) your eyes closed.

and just to blow your minds right now about how Mysterious Bag is so all-important: it wasn't added until Elminage 3 on PSP. I also, btw, don't use it during my playthroughs. It's simply not necessary. It's an illusion of convenience.
 

Gunnar

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
819
I have been allowed into the final area of the game. All that stands between me and victory is the final boss!

Here's my final team:

Human Hunter --> Devilish Ninja, level 93, dual wielding Thunder God Particle and Kutneslika (stacked with beheading ore). Deaths: 35 / Kills: 2250
Human Brawler --> Devilish Brawler, level 134, using dark claws (x2 damage to gods and extras). Deaths: 58 / Kills: 4076
Human Samurai, level 102, using Amenonohoko. Deaths: 76 / Kills: 2770
Dwarf Cleric --> Lord, level 117, using Angel Strike. Deaths: 91 / Kills: 1334
Dragonewt Valkyrie, level 113, dual wielding Blue Gale and Godslayer. Deaths: 17 / Kills: 1822
Dragonewt Alchemist --> Hunter, level 83, using Garndiva. Deaths: 29 / Kills: 429 (I made this character when I reached the tower)

Ninja, if I could go back I wouldn't have made the Ninja Devilish and just kept him human, he levels really slowly and there isn't much cursed gear for him to use.

On the Brawler, I would have made Brawler Devilish ASAP and made use of things like Death Arm and World. Also not a huge fan of the Brawler, although he does great damage throughout the game he is a boring character due to limited equipment. Imagine a front line with two Ninjas hiding and one Samurai swallow returning all the attacks or hell even three samurais, using spears to reach all enemies, 3 casts of AC+ and Miracle per round. You could make a killer team that does not include the Brawler.

The Lord was great until the Tower. His weapon selection means you can only do decent damage with him if you go Double/Short, and he just ends up getting crowded out of the front row by better characters. Mostly because the Lowered AC skill is OP and makes characters that have it OP in the end game. (Ninja and Brawler are already great choices without having the best AC in the game by far.) This makes him only better than a pure Cleric because of Court Sanctuary like aweigh said.

I dabbled with a few of the other classes but never touched the shaman, bard, servant, all of which seem like garbage classes, thief only good for stealing equipment which is 98% shit, bishop worthless and i refuse to use him i don't care how convenient it is, the only other good ones seems to be the fighter and of course summoner with some crazy summon

Regarding ex-skills, Brace for all front liners seems mandatory, probably wouldn't roll without it again. And although mysterious bag is totally not needed for 98% of the game it's good for the tower where you cannot teleport. I'd always make sure someone had it for the end game at least.

Okay off I go to fight the boss of the Tower. Looking forward to some good old adventurer mangling.
 

Dorarnae

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Jan 21, 2016
Messages
721
servant can be nice, it's just that you need to give them a few spell so he can buff and do a few things. I am playing one in the first elminage now, and his attack is about the same as the thief, I remember in elminage 3 they had some new gear that seemed nice.
the only thing that can be a bit annoying is filling their bag, have to buy each item one by one.
 

Dorarnae

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
721
as for shaman, I haven't played them much, but I remember in elminage 3 I was low level and was able to kill a boss because I relfected all her enterook mista....but other than that they fight well but have low hp and their magic wall can be nice but eventually magic isn't much of a problem....
they're probably not too bad against belial in gothic.
 

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