ELEX Pre-Release Thread

[T. Reich]

How often do i have to repeat this to you morons: Gothics don't have C&C, cause there's a lack of
1) choices
2) consequences

B-but, mah C&C!
Remember, there was one time in G1 when you refused to pay protection money to one of the Old Camp guards, and then some random dudes asked you for help but beat you up instead? Wouldn't have happened if you had paid up!
And in G2, remember when Canthar made you frame Sarah, but you refused and ratted him ou instead? He would take his petty revenge on you later, and not right away! C&C!
I'm sure there was more!

How often do i have to repeat this to you morons: Gothics don't have C&C, cause there's a lack of
1) choices
2) consequences

Never played G3, but in both G1 and G2 the "join faction" thing is conveyed, and feels, like a pretty big choice... In fact in both games half the game revolves just around/towards that, and the other half is directly influenced by it.

Joining a faction influenced almost nothing apart from access to some side-quests and gear/vendor availability.
In the end, both in G1+2, you would go about the main quest line the same way:
G1 - you end up joining the New Camp (water mages) anyway, and then proceed to kill the Sleeper.
G2 - you end up getting the Eye of Innos and killing the dragons no matter what faction you belong to.
You don't see NPCs changing their reactions to you apart from pretty cosmetic remarks and the opposing faction hardliner members refusing to give you quests or sell you their faction-only gear.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Only C&C in G3 was kill orcs or help orcs and it only influenced the very ending. Also, the cardboard cutout characters completely killed any atmosphere that there might be. Pretty landscapes don't cut it. Part of the charm in G1/2 were interactions with NPCs, even if they were cheesy written. They all had their own personality quirks. G3 raped this the same way as Bethtardo raped Fallout. And they did it to their own franchise.:/

 

[Cassidy]

Joining a faction influenced almost nothing.

Sure thing. A mercenary can easily become a mage and cast spells virtually unlimited if you are willing to rest every time mana and mana potions are running out. Just like in Oblivion and Skyrim.

Unless you are one of those who think C&C tied up to gameplay first, story second doesn't matter.

 

[cvv]

HELP!!! I feel trolled. Why do you mean people just enjoy it so badly to troll us newfags?

The world doesn't have the lovely handcrafted feeling of G2 but it's much more atmospheric.

The game is gorgeous to this very day, looks much better than vanilla Skyrim even though it's five years older.

Yeah, comparing something with Skyrim always shows good taste.

You can also kill almost anyone without fucking up the story, which is very good actually, definitely miles better than the G2 story (which is retarded).

Fuck story

The combat with all the community patch features switched on is basically the same as in G2.

Combat in PB games doesn't matter.

As for the C&C both games are great.

How often do i have to repeat this to you morons: Gothics don't have C&C, cause there's a lack of
1) choices
2) consequences

G3 wins this one tho since the world is bigger and there's simply more of it.

You've got the choice to beat the wolves or not; and the consequence to get money or not.

Let's face it: PB tried to copy Oblivion (the best game to date) cause of monies and made it (except for more bugs maybe); so they achieved the same quality as Oblivion with more atmosphere and without level scaling

The edge is sharp in this young one. Somebody better blunt it with a tag or there'll be blood.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Joining a faction influenced almost nothing.

Sure thing. A mercenary can easily become a mage and cast spells virtually unlimited if you are willing to rest every time mana and mana potions are running out. Just like in Oblivion and Skyrim.

Unless you are one of those who think C&C tied up to gameplay first, story second doesn't matter.

Yeah. Joining a faction influenced HALF OF THE WHOLE FUCKING GAME. You basically had 3 different story branches depending on faction. Also the little ones that were related to side quests mentioned by T. Reich. Some people here...

 

[Jools]

Joining a faction influenced almost nothing.

Sure thing. A mercenary can easily become a mage and cast spells virtually unlimited if you are willing to rest every time mana and mana potions are running out. Just like in Oblivion and Skyrim.

Unless you are one of those who think C&C tied up to gameplay first, story second doesn't matter.

Yeah. Joining a faction influenced HALF OF THE WHOLE FUCKING GAME. You basically had 3 different story branches depending on faction. Also the little ones that were related to side quests mentioned by T. Reich. Some people here...

IKR...

 

[T. Reich]

Joining a faction influenced almost nothing.

Sure thing. A mercenary can easily become a mage and cast spells virtually unlimited if you are willing to rest every time mana and mana potions are running out. Just like in Oblivion and Skyrim.

Unless you are one of those who think C&C tied up to gameplay first, story second doesn't matter.

Don't be a tard. Picking a side to join in G2 is basically picking a class to play (pure mage/hybrid mage+fighter/pure fighter), it's not C&C just because it happens not right at the start of the game.
G1 didn't even have that - you'd end up as a fighter+caster powerhouse no matter what camp you picked.

Besides that point, there's something in G2 that's magic and is available to anyone.
Scrolls. Tons of scrolls. Tons of powerful scrolls. Tons of powerful scrolls that are relatively cheap to buy and are cheap to cast.
Dragon (any dragon)? Summon demon scroll x1, and wait for a minute or less. Well, maybe with the game's last boss, you'd need 2x demon scrolls.
Any single tough enemy? Ice block x1, and you have 20 seconds of totally unpunished hacking.shooting at the sorry loser. that's what I always used on Raven, the guy's a joke.
A few tough-ish enemies? Transform into warg/fire lizard/shadowbeast/dragon snapper and kill them all. AFAIR, there's no time limit on the transformation, so you can go and kill some more enemies once you're done with the first bunch. Just don't level-up while doing that, there's some non-game breaking bug related to that.
Need some distraction? Summon a lesser critter (a skeleton will do).
A lot of weaker enemies? Use storm scroll. Did you know that a single scroll of storm is enough to completely wipe out a camp of bandits near Onar's farm? There are something close to 15 bandits there.
A bunch of strong enemies? Rain of fire. Did you know that there are just enough rain of fire scrolls in the game to almost completely wipe out the orc siege in the Valley, provided you do some running among the orcs to group them together?
And offensive spell scrolls that do 100+ damage can be really handy as well, allowing you to bypass a good deal of dodgy situations.

Here you go, a spellcasting mercenary.
After all that, all you have to do is to kill trash mobs with normal attacks.

 

[Jools]

Joining a faction influenced almost nothing.

Sure thing. A mercenary can easily become a mage and cast spells virtually unlimited if you are willing to rest every time mana and mana potions are running out. Just like in Oblivion and Skyrim.

Unless you are one of those who think C&C tied up to gameplay first, story second doesn't matter.

Don't be a tard. Picking a side to join in G2 is basically picking a class to play (pure mage/hybrid mage+fighter/pure fighter), it's not C&C just because it happens not right at the start of the game.
G1 didn't even have that - you'd end up as a fighter+caster powerhouse no matter what camp you picked.

Besides that point, there's something in G2 that's magic and is available to anyone.
Scrolls. Tons of scrolls. Tons of powerful scrolls. Tons of powerful scrolls that are relatively cheap to buy and are cheap to cast.
Dragon (any dragon)? Summon demon scroll x1, and wait for a minute or less. Well, maybe with the game's last boss, you'd need 2x demon scrolls.
Any single tough enemy? Ice block x1, and you have 20 seconds of totally unpunished hacking.shooting at the sorry loser. that's what I always used on Raven, the guy's a joke.
A few tough-ish enemies? Transform into warg/fire lizard/shadowbeast/dragon snapper and kill them all. AFAIR, there's no time limit on the transformation, so you can go and kill some more enemies once you're done with the first bunch. Just don't level-up while doing that, there's some non-game breaking bug related to that.
Need some distraction? Summon a lesser critter (a skeleton will do).
A lot of weaker enemies? Use storm scroll. Did you know that a single scroll of storm is enough to completely wipe out a camp of bandits near Onar's farm? There are something close to 15 bandits there.
A bunch of strong enemies? Rain of fire. Did you know that there are just enough rain of fire scrolls in the game to almost completely wipe out the orc siege in the Valley, provided you do some running among the orcs to group them together?
And offensive spell scrolls that do 100+ damage can be really handy as well, allowing you to bypass a good deal of dodgy situations.

Here you go, a spellcasting mercenary.
After all that, all you have to do is to kill trash mobs with normal attacks.

Nothing to do with C&C but, you know, some of us, kinda, like, how to put this... RP the characters they play as. for instance, if I'm going for a badass 2h melee barbarian type, I won't use spells. It's not like you have to do everything, as you seem to imply.

Seriously, there are C&C in G1 and especially G2, just go read any walkthrough available out there to refresh your memory.

 

[Cthulhu_is_love]

The edge is sharp in this young one. Somebody better blunt it with a tag or there'll be blood.

Nah, you're the edgy G3>G2-troll. How the fuck is G2-loyalty edgy anyway?

Yeah. Joining a faction influenced HALF OF THE WHOLE FUCKING GAME.

There isn't changing much like T.Reich also said.

You basically had 3 different story branches depending on faction.

Story in PB game! MOMMY!!! The dudes of that internet forum are ignoring me.
There are no story branches.

Also the little ones that were related to side quests mentioned by T. Reich.

Seriously, there are C&C in G1 and especially G2, just go read any walkthrough available out there to refresh your memory.

That's like 3 quests in G1 and 5 quests in G2.

I love G1 and G2 too, but that doesn't mean that i have to fabricate some facts to explain my love.
Let's try that one: Gothic games have such a deep lore.

 

[Gnidrologist]

 

[Jools]

The edge is sharp in this young one. Somebody better blunt it with a tag or there'll be blood.

Nah, you're the edgy G3>G2-troll. How the fuck is G2-loyalty edgy anyway?

Yeah. Joining a faction influenced HALF OF THE WHOLE FUCKING GAME.

There isn't changing much like T.Reich also said.

You basically had 3 different story branches depending on faction.

Story in PB game! MOMMY!!! The dudes of that internet forum are ignoring me.
There are no story branches.

Also the little ones that were related to side quests mentioned by T. Reich.

Seriously, there are C&C in G1 and especially G2, just go read any walkthrough available out there to refresh your memory.

That's like 3 quests in G1 and 5 quests in G2.

I love G1 and G2 too, but that doesn't mean that i have to fabricate some facts to explain my love.
Let's try that one: Gothic games have such a deep lore.

Oh well. Welcome to my ignore list, Mr. "I don't fabricate some facts" Newfag.

 

[T. Reich]

Joining a faction influenced almost nothing.

Sure thing. A mercenary can easily become a mage and cast spells virtually unlimited if you are willing to rest every time mana and mana potions are running out. Just like in Oblivion and Skyrim.

Unless you are one of those who think C&C tied up to gameplay first, story second doesn't matter.

Don't be a tard. Picking a side to join in G2 is basically picking a class to play (pure mage/hybrid mage+fighter/pure fighter), it's not C&C just because it happens not right at the start of the game.
G1 didn't even have that - you'd end up as a fighter+caster powerhouse no matter what camp you picked.

Besides that point, there's something in G2 that's magic and is available to anyone.
Scrolls. Tons of scrolls. Tons of powerful scrolls. Tons of powerful scrolls that are relatively cheap to buy and are cheap to cast.
Dragon (any dragon)? Summon demon scroll x1, and wait for a minute or less. Well, maybe with the game's last boss, you'd need 2x demon scrolls.
Any single tough enemy? Ice block x1, and you have 20 seconds of totally unpunished hacking.shooting at the sorry loser. that's what I always used on Raven, the guy's a joke.
A few tough-ish enemies? Transform into warg/fire lizard/shadowbeast/dragon snapper and kill them all. AFAIR, there's no time limit on the transformation, so you can go and kill some more enemies once you're done with the first bunch. Just don't level-up while doing that, there's some non-game breaking bug related to that.
Need some distraction? Summon a lesser critter (a skeleton will do).
A lot of weaker enemies? Use storm scroll. Did you know that a single scroll of storm is enough to completely wipe out a camp of bandits near Onar's farm? There are something close to 15 bandits there.
A bunch of strong enemies? Rain of fire. Did you know that there are just enough rain of fire scrolls in the game to almost completely wipe out the orc siege in the Valley, provided you do some running among the orcs to group them together?
And offensive spell scrolls that do 100+ damage can be really handy as well, allowing you to bypass a good deal of dodgy situations.

Here you go, a spellcasting mercenary.
After all that, all you have to do is to kill trash mobs with normal attacks.

Nothing to do with C&C but, you know, some of us, kinda, like, how to put this... RP the characters they play as. for instance, if I'm going for a badass 2h melee barbarian type, I won't use spells. It's not like you have to do everything, as you seem to imply.

Seriously, there are C&C in G1 and especially G2, just go read any walkthrough available out there to refresh your memory.

I didn't write all this as a reply to you. Apparently, Cassidy thinks that choosing to become a fighter class in G2 by joining an appropriate camp is now CHOICES & CONSEQUENCES, because you can't play as a mage when you become a fighter.
You don't have to tell me that I don't have to do everything, I know that.

Regarding actual C&C - G1+2 have virtually none of those. And I don't need a fucking walkthrough, because I've played them so much I practically know them by heart.
You're free to prove me wrong by giving me more than a couple examples of meaningful C&C in G1+2.
And when I say "meaningful", I mean examples of how you having completed a quest in a specific way would later on actually change the status quo of how you interact with some people later on.
I know that G1+2 have a little bit of that (you've seen my earlier post), but, frankly, there's too little of that compared to the actual amount of content in the game.

 

[Jools]

So this thread, apparently, is now about "What is C&C, like, really? Does it have to do with story? Reputation? Reactiveness? Classes? Options? Quest rewards? Also, what is Love? Baby don't hurt me, baby don't hurt me, no more".

 

[Gnidrologist]

If you're thinking of C&C on the level of BIS/Troyka games, then there are NO OTHER rpg that has them other than BIS/Troyka games + New Vegas. As far as your average rpg goes, G1/2 have plenty or none whatsoever, depending on your preferred narrative.

 

[T. Reich]

Marginally better than discussing what's PB up to, to which the answer is pretty obvious - nothing good.

 

[Jools]

If you're thinking of C&C on the level of BIS/Troyka games, then there are NO OTHER rpg that has them other than BIS/Troyka games + New Vegas. As far as your average rpg goes, G1/2 have plenty.

The newfags beg to differ. I put both on ignore because it's Monday and my tolerance levels are below nominal, but you have fun discussing this with them. BTW, they'll try and say you're "fabricating facts", but you keep the fight on, k?

 

[Gnidrologist]

 

[T. Reich]

If you're thinking of C&C on the level of BIS/Troyka games, then there are NO OTHER rpg that has them other than BIS/Troyka games + New Vegas. As far as your average rpg goes, G1/2 have plenty.

Like what?
"I killed the guy who sells shit, so now he don't sell me shit no more."?
"In a world of mutually exclusive factions, I joined faction X, so now factions Y and Z refuse to let me join, buy their special stuff and entrust their secrets to me. I wonder why."?
"I completed a quest that involved two quarreling people in a favour of one of them, so the other one calls me meanie."?

There's a reason why C&C wasn't much of a buzzword - because a lot of games didn't feature it as such. And it's ok. Absence of C&C isn't the end of the world. But let's not be sperglords now and try and attribute some quality to the game of which it had trace amounts at best.
G1+2 had very limited C&C, but it was not what made them so good.

EDIT: ...Oh my, jools ignored me! How can I live now? Way to escape out of arguement you can't support with facts, loser.

 

[Cthulhu_is_love]

Wow... I always thought that i'm am ignorant Gothic fanboy but it seems like the rpgcodex always has to overact anything.

You know it's about atmosphere, exploration and slow climbing the guild carrier ladder, not C&C or story.

But I think one of them was a R2 enthusiast...
These people which let adddeed look sane.

 

[Gnidrologist]

As i said, if you think that G1/2 doesn't have anything that merits meaningful C&C than NO game other than ones made by BIS/Troyka do. If you interpret it that way, then okay, guess you're right.

 

[Lord Andre]

What are does Troika or BIS games with the awesome C&C ? I played them all and can't seem to remember something that sets them head and shoulders above the rest.

Not arguing with you, just refresh my memory...

 

[Gnidrologist]

Ok, this just in. There are no rpgs with C&C in existence whatsoever then.

If you want to refresh your memory use fallout wiki or awesome guides by per:
http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout.html
http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout2.html

 

[Jools]

I love following the debate just by reading Gnidrologist's side of it. It's much less rage-inducing.

 

[Lord Andre]

Ok, this just in. There are no rpgs with C&C in existence whatsoever then.

If you want to refresh your memory use fallout wiki or awesome guides by per:
http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout.html
http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout2.html

Meh. Can't be bothered. I played the games. C&C was good and added to the overall quality of those games. I would rather ponder why it was good and my bet is: because it was there when it made sense. quality over quantity etc. Gothics usually have a gamestate A to gamestate B sort of plot and the C&C is there when it makes sense. So only a few occasions, but on those occasions it doesn't seem shoehorned in. To me C&C needs to be discreet, easy to overlook because it melds well with the rest of the gameplay. I despise games where C&C is some sort of quota that needs to be filled wheter it makes sense or not. See PoE, Wasteland 2 etc.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Yeah, i agree. There are different degrees in various games. Some people think that some C&C count and others don't so it would be better if they defined them first.