Dungeons and Dragons 4E

[thesheeep]

This. This was maybe the only D&D mechanic I genuinely and utterly liked. It made being a wizard difficult. You had to be prepared, and since mostly you could only guess what came ahead, a player really could be a wizard and try for an intelligent spell-selection.

It made being a wizard more difficult than any other class. Which outright sucked. DnD is (partly) about balancing the effectiveness between all classes. And if one class is so much more hard to play (and therefore less effective and balanced) than the others, it simply doesn't belong there and has to be fixed.

But just because you are now able to cast all the time, it doesn't mean you can cast all the spells which has been stated more than enough. They only removed memorization partly. I guess that the really powerful spells, those which made wizards actually useful, will still be those once-per-day casts. Or at least per-encounter.

DnD isn't hardcore-PnP

 

[dragonfk]

In BG and BG2 I've played only as a wizard. Why? Because he represents most of the tactical options for player to use. Being a warrior? Pff you just run and deal dps. Being a ranger? Pff you just stand there and deal dps from away. Being a thief? Much better than previous ones, but still: hide, deal backstab damage, hide...Or place a trap(only in ToB or late in SoA). And so on...But a wizard, wizard is special(and I am not talking about those abominations named sorcerers). Wizards carefully gather as many spells as they can and then they have vast tactical options. Want to throw in some monsters? Go ahead. Want to burn with fire or encage in ice those beast? Why not. Want to go into the fight? Tensers Transformation and here you go. So many possibilities, that playing someone else than a wizard is plain boring. Ofcourse you could say: but I just could have a wizard in my party and it would be the same. No! It is not the same, at least not for me . Being a wizard just creates between me and my alter ego a special bond not achievable for other classes. And I dont know about you, but I certainly pay more attention to loot for my protagonist than to other members in my party.

And memorizing the spells was a unique thing and should have been left alone.

 

[Lumpy]

So please, explain to me how you can memorize something twice.

 

[Jasede]

Just shut the fuck up, Lumpy.

 

[Müg]

-The realms have been devastated by the "Spell Plague"

wtf is this? Come to think of it, did they ever explain the "magic dead area" thing? Are they connected?

-Yes you read right: Monk, Barbarian, Druid and Bard have been cut. They are still in development and will come out in later PHB's

I sense they're trying to nerf and can't figure out how to do it without screwing them over.

-There will be a new PHB, DMG adn MM every year! All rules wthinl be core for each of these. This is whats causing me some grief, because I don't want a tone of new rules every year to bloat the game up! The PHB I can take, it will have new classes and stuff. But a new dmg every year can only mean trouble.

They're releasing them for free on their site, or something, right? right? Because buying them every year would be absurd.

-Spells are no longer in the game. Vancian spellcasting (memorizing spells in slots) is mostly gone. Instead, wizards and clerics get powers and rituals. Powers are per day, per encounter, and at will. (example: ray of forst, at will, does some damage and slows down the enemy) Rituals are things that take a long time ot cast (probably like the rituals in wfrp v2, though not as gritty). Raise Dead spell from previous editions will now be a ritual . (sucks since I hate raising dead type spells. Guess I will ban this in my games as usual)

I kinda see this as an improvement, especially the distinction between spell (I don't know about you, but I'm going to ignore the "power" bit since they're just...spells to me) and rituals. Plus I kinda didn't like how you were limited by day on everything, variety is the spice of life and whatnot. I don't know how I feel about getting rid of slots; they were a fairly organized way of controlling spells. But I did always wish that some magical abilities could be performed in a pinch without them.

 

[dragonfk]

You want a logical explanation or a roleplayish?

Ill give you second one because logically there is no explanation, because magic does not exist.

In roleplayish way: Its the way magic works .

But whats important is the fact that it plays well.

Okey so being a wizard is hard, but its hard on low levels. On higher ones you are so fucking powerful that you can take armies with you to the grave.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

You want a logical explanation or a roleplayish?

Ill give you second one because logically there is no explanation, because magic does not exist.

In roleplayish way: Its the way magic works .

Wow. How long did it take you to come up with this explanation?

 

[1eyedking]

Okey so being a wizard is hard, but its hard on low levels. On higher ones you are so fucking powerful that you can take armies with you to the grave.

Hello, Spell Resistance.

And Improved Evasion.

And +25 Will/Fortitude/Reflex Saves.

 

[Jasede]

Wow, you suck at playing wizards.

 

[Lurkar]

While there is some good in 4th, like getting rid of the vancian spellcasting, all the bad overshadows it by a lot. Probably the worst thing I've seen so far is I Can't Believe It's Not Satan and the new demons/devils.

 

[dragonfk]

Wow. How long did it take you to come up with this explanation?

And how much do you think?

Hello, Spell Resistance.

And Improved Evasion.

And +25 Will/Fortitude/Reflex Saves.

And what the fuck do I have demons or celestials summoning for? For bringing me breafest at morning? And come on, we are talking about common encounters not some super-fucking boss fights. Ever used Stop Time during boss fights and then sequencers? Lone Boss is not a boss, he is doomed to die without support.

Wow, you suck at playing wizards.

Me? The most fearsome gnome illusionist in Forgotten Realms ?

 

[1eyedking]

Wow, you suck at playing wizards.

Yeah, +15 INT bonus, Greater Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Focus, Lower Resistance spells, meta magic feats, yadda-yadda, etc.

Those things I mentioned before can still royally fuck up your wizard because at higher levels they're there aplenty.

And what the fuck do I have demons or celestials summoning for? For bringing me breafest at morning? And come on, we are talking about common encounters not some super-fucking boss fights. Ever used Stop Time during boss fights and then sequencers? Lone Boss is not a boss, he is doomed to die without support.

Sounds like you had a sucky DM. Common encounters at high-levels are not bigger goblins with more hitpoints and bigger spears, they're drow parties with clerics and wizards that are smart enough to cast their Protection from Alignment when a Gate is cast, or have their Death Ward spells prepared in case a wizard gets smartass with his Finger of Death spell.

I won't even talk about spell disruptions (and yeah, I know what 'Defensive Casting' is).

 

[dragonfk]

Okey so you'll soak of all the damage I could put on you. But still there are spells that do not count resistance and throws into thier chance of success.

And as Steven Erikson wrote in his books: Magic on field of battle is only for holding your opponents from using their magic on you. Try not to have a mage in your ranks and youre pretty much fucked up.

 

[Andhaira]

Speaking of wizards, apparently they are having trouble balancing sumoning spells. Its quite possible there will be no summon spells in the first phb, and they will be reserved for later releases of theother PHB's.

Wish spell is also out by the way; since the dev's said it was too un-fun. It either led to a confrontation where the gm tried to make the wish come true in as worst a way as possible, or it worked way way too well, effectively making other spells of that level useless, since wish can duplicate them. (so wizard pc's ended up filling their spel slots with wish spells only)

Another VERY interesting thing to note about class abilities in 4E is that many abilities now offer sceondary effecdts. For instance, the paladin can smite and do extra damage, and at the same time he can heal an ally, boost an ally's AC, etc. A wizard can cast ray of frost to deal damage and slow the enemy. This is obviously derived from MO's, where powers have tiered and stacking effects. Some of it sounds good to me (funh abilities) but some sounds just too cheesy. (why would an ally be healed when the paladin just chopped someone with an axe??)

 

[Ivy Mike]

-Yes you read right: Monk, Barbarian, Druid and Bard have been cut. They are still in development and will come out in later PHB's

I sense they're trying to nerf and can't figure out how to do it without screwing them over.

They fucking better not. Barbarians and Bards are two of my favourite classes in DnD, and some of the most fun to play.

 

[1eyedking]

They fucking better not. Barbarians and Bards are two of my favourite classes in DnD, and some of the most fun to play.

Barbarians and Bards are superfluous classes.
A Barbarian is a Fighter with a Rage feat.
A Bard is any fucking character with a Perform skill.

And so are many classes.
A Ranger is a Fighter with wilderness-related feats.
A Paladin is a Fighter with divinity-related feats.
A Monk is a Fighter with unarmed-related feats.

They could have made the 3E system much more interesting by making it feat-intensive (AKA skill trees). Instead they went the way of the dumbdown.

[P1]: "I wanna play a r0x0rz Barb from the north taht can use raegg!!!!11!"
[DM]: "Just play a fucking illiterate Fighter."
[P1]: "But teh class is in the Player'z Handboek!!!2!"
[DM]: "Whatever."

 

[Ivy Mike]

You and I both know that the class mechanics for both Bards and Barbarians go deeper than that (Hit Die, BAB etc, even though I'm not well versed in DnD mechanics), but I agree that the class system for DnD could do with a complete makeover. Why not use someting like different archetypes (melee, magic, social) with different bonuses, throw out classes, and make character building a feat-affair (similar to what you suggested). It seems to me that classes are there just for the sake of it nowadays as most tend to dip in different classes just to get some feat or the other.

 

[1eyedking]

You and I both know that the class mechanics for both Bards and Barbarians go deeper than that (Hit Die, BAB etc, even though I'm not well versed in DnD mechanics)

You are right, but that's my point, they're classes when they shouldn't be. Plus, there's nothing you can't do without some feats:

Barbarian Health
Prerequisites: BAB +1.
Benefits: You roll 1d12 instead of 1d10 for each time you level up as a Fighter.

Bardic Songs
Prerequisites: 6 ranks in Perform (any).
Benefits: Some funky spell-effect when performing. Sub-in Improved Bardic Songs for greater effects.

but I agree that the class system for DnD could do with a complete makeover. Why not use someting like different archetypes (melee, magic, social) with different bonuses, throw out classes, and make character building a feat-affair (similar to what you suggested). It seems to me that classes are there just for the sake of it nowadays as most tend to dip in different classes just to get some feat or the other.

I actually hate the D&D social skills. Mind you, this is a completely personal opinion, but nevertheless I always thought rolling for Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate was kind of ridiculous and lazy. I'd rather rely on good DM judgment than "Could you let us pass? [Aside: I roll for diplomacy.]".

 

[dagorkan]

Hey here's a revolutionary idea - get rid of all classes and archetypes!

 

[1eyedking]

Hey here's a revolutionary idea - get rid of all prestige classes and stereotypes!

Fixed.

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

Hey here's a revolutionary idea - get rid of all classes and archetypes!

Fire and brimstone await you, heretic!

 

[Andhaira]

Actually, Prestige clases are gone.

They are replaced by Paragon Paths and Epic Paths (basically paragon and epic talent tree's).
(pragon is level 11-20, epic is lvls 21-30)

Also,. interestingly wizards has hired a mathamatician for their games (magic, dnd, dreamblade etc). He is an ex-professor, and is probably working on the 4e system. I don't have the link to his blog at the moment, (you can fin dit on the wizards 4e website). In his latest blog entry he remarked about how completely skill based rpg systems are somewhat broken internally, in that there is ALWAYS only one uber build, tat can be attained by the right combination of skills, which players eventually find.

A class based system avoids such pitfalls, if designed well, and thus is balanced.

 

[Texas Red]

Classes are not just a bunch of feats. Its about roleplaying and concept. Though I agree the whole deal with billions of classes and prestige classes is ridiculous. There should be a middle ground where you have an easily defined class yet have freedom to choose a path through skills and feats, basically replacing prestige classes and variations of base classes.

 

[thesheeep]

I actually hate the D&D social skills. Mind you, this is a completely personal opinion, but nevertheless I always thought rolling for Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate was kind of ridiculous and lazy. I'd rather rely on good DM judgment than "Could you let us pass? [Aside: I roll for diplomacy.]".

In our group, we actually handle it like this:

The player has to talk himself, bringing arguments, etc.
Then follows the diplomacy check. And in this check, the DM decides how much of his Diplomacy points the player may use, based on how good his speech was.

But you could also interpret this skill as "Diplomacy is not what I say or how I say it, but if and how much it makes sense for the NPC"...

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

And in this check, the DM decides how much of his Diplomacy points the player may use, based on how good his speech was.

Applying modifiers additional modifiers to the player's roll result would be more logical, no?