Dungeons and Dragons 4E

[Andhaira]

A lot of people here seem to be interested in 4E, but don't seem to know much about it. So I thought I would help you guy's catch up; theres been a lotta interesting info released. this is going to be a vastly different game, which might seem familiar from the front, but really is not. I personally like many changes, but am waiting for the product before making any decisions.

Since dnd has influenced so many crpg's, such as EoB, Gold Box, baldurs Gate, etc I thnk pc gamers should keep up to date on the latest going on's. Simply because new pc games based on dndn will always make use of the latest rules, even if the games themselvesa re not fully rpg but action oriented. (suchas dark alliance)

Note: dnd has never been my fave system. Too magic/magic item heavy, hp bloat, etc was too much. I always prefer wfrp 1 and 2, L5R 3ed, etc since i focu son telling stories. However, I really like Star Wars SAGA (which contains a prototype dnd4E system molded for star wars) so I have good hopes for 4E.

------------------------------------


We will start with forgotten realms, because there was some interest inthe other thread about this. Since this was the setting for the baldurs gate series, eye of the beholder, etc people here may beinterested in the major chanegs to this setting. (and yes, the setting is being heavily modified)


-Time line has been advanced 100 years.
-The realms have been devastated by the "Spell Plague"
-Mystra is dead, by Cyric's hand (this is what kind of started the spellplague)
-Cyric has been imprisioned for 1000 years.
-The spell plague has killed of most magic users, including most chosen of mystra
-Khelben Blackstaff is dead. (in the latest FR novel)

-The spell plague is the developers answer to the common complaint that pc's are always overshadowed by npc's.

-The spell plague also explains IC how the magic system has changed. (so now in novels npc's will use the new 4E magic system)

-Drizzt is still alive. (yes, I know. But his novels always hit the NY Times list, so they can't let him die) In fact his new book, the orc king,the prologue takes place in the new timeline. (100+ years in advance) The rest of the book goes back to the old iitmeline.

-Elminster is also still alive in the new timeline.

-Since 4E will no longer have 'specialist' schools, expect major changes to places such as Thay, assuming any Thayan wizards survived the spellplague and the 100+ years that followed.

-FR will be the first campagn setting released for 4E, with Eberron to follow next year. (nothing much has been changed in Eberron)

----------------------

You know, all of the above would make for a great Baldurs Gate 3 world to play in. Or not.


Oh and as for more 4E changes:

-Classes: Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, Warlock, Paladin, Warlord (basically a commander type of character aka the non-magic 'buffer').

-Yes you read right: Monk, Barbarian, Druid and Bard have been cut. They are still in development and will come out in later PHB's

-There will be a new PHB, DMG adn MM every year! All rules wthinl be core for each of these. This is whats causing me some grief, because I don't want a tone of new rules every year to bloat the game up! The PHB I can take, it will have new classes and stuff. But a new dmg every year can only mean trouble.

-Fighters now specialize in 2-H weapons, or Sword and Shield.

-TWF is apparently now a class ability, probably of the ranger, though it may also be a feat, or a combo. (i.e. the ranger will get talents/maneuvers to improve his TWF)

-All classes now get stances and maneuvers (like in Tome of Battle, which was a prototype product testing the waters for 4E combat) in addition to feats and talents.

-MMO games, especially WOW has been quite influential in the new design process. This has been admitted by several Wizards personell. Basically they are trying to get the best things from MMO's, and meld them into tabletop gaming. One thing they are aiming for is attracting new female games; which apparently WOW has been able to do. They say, if WOW can make wives and gf's play, so can DnD.

-Classes now have roles such as Striker, defender, etc. Kind of like MMO's tank, buffer, etc. While this is another indication of MMO influence, its ironic once you realize that MMO role (tank, buffer etc) were originally influenced by earlier versios of dnd and rpg's.(fighter,/tank, cleric/buffer etc) I personally hope the MMO influence is kept down, since i hate those type of games. I am a realist though, and I see why they are doing this,WOW makes and INSANE amount of money for blizzard.

-Fluff has now made it into 4E rules, more so than ever before. In earlier editions there was a little fluff such as spells named after Greyhawk Wizards (bigby, Mordenkein, etc). You also had the elves/dwarves enmity. Now, there is tiefling and dragonborn enmity (aparently both ruled vast empires, then destroyed each other in a massive war from which both races never recovered)

-In another example of fluff, wizard traditions have caused major upheaving among the community. Basically, mages now all belong to certain orders, such as the Order of the Golden Wyvren. They have feats to represent this; Golden Wyvren Adept feat lets the wizard sculpt area effect spelles. This has really pissed off many fans, who want fluf-less feats in the core rules.

-The designers say these are examples of how players can adapt the game to their own settings. (so rename Golden Wyvren Adept to Brone Dracon Shadow, if you are playing in a Wizardry 8 type setting)

((IMO fluff has crept in more and more because of the success other rpg companies have had by integrating fluff and crunch togather; White Wolf's Exalted is a good example of this))

-Wizards now specialize in 4 implements; staff, orb, wand (debatable whether its a harry potter influence ) There was also another implement, tome, but now it may or may not be in). Staves focus on destructive spells, Orbs on shaping while wands on cones.(this is still in flux though, and each implements focus seems to change every month currently). More player handbooks will introduce more implements. Specializing is not essential, we are told (though this may also change) but it does provide a bonus to the requisite powers. (so fireball will be enhanced if cast through a staff if wizard has a staff focus)

-Spells are no longer in the game. Vancian spellcasting (memorizing spells in slots) is mostly gone. Instead, wizards and clerics get powers and rituals. Powers are per day, per encounter, and at will. (example: ray of forst, at will, does some damage and slows down the enemy) Rituals are things that take a long time ot cast (probably like the rituals in wfrp v2, though not as gritty). Raise Dead spell from previous editions will now be a ritual . (sucks since I hate raising dead type spells. Guess I will ban this in my games as usual)


Ok, I will let you digest this before posting more. Also, its cool to think how it all relates to the crpg industry;while the system may run smoother on table top, so many new options and stuff may turn some video game designers off; they may opt for a custom in-house game system (such as SPECIAL) which is easier to develop.

 

[Ismaul]

You'd have done better by just posting this: ENWorld's 4e Info page.

 

[Andhaira]

Yeah, I guess. but this was more fun, and I think I touch upon things not readily apparent in the enworld info page (that page has a LOT of info and quotes, can be a turn off. I'm trying to ewase ppl in.

More stuff:

Races: Humans, Dwarves (females don't have beards anymore), Halflings, Tieflings, Dragonborn, Eladrin (high elves), Elves.

 

[Starwars]

Thanks for posting this. It's been a very long time since I played D&D pen and paper, and I don't think I'll do it anytime in the near future. So I don't care enough to go and look up all this new info, but it's fun to see what it might mean for upcoming cRPGs.

 

[thesheeep]

Thanks. Quite appreciated info bits. Most of those sound nice, IMHO...

 

[thesheeep]

You'd have done better by just posting this: ENWorld's 4e Info page.

Out of that:

"One major change to this system in 4E is the fact characters can choose to be “unaligned,” having no significant impulses towards good or evil. Characters can still choose to be good or evil (law and chaos are not mentioned), but most characters and monsters will be unaligned. Unsurprisingly, most spells and powers that revolve around alignment are now gone.
"

Hell, yeah. Finally.

 

[Andhaira]

Oh yeah, also paadins can be of any 'alignment' (or whatever they are going to use now)

 

[Lesifoere]

-MMO games, especially WOW has been quite influential in the new design process. This has been admitted by several Wizards personell. Basically they are trying to get the best things from MMO's, and meld them into tabletop gaming. One thing they are aiming for is attracting new female games; which apparently WOW has been able to do. They say, if WOW can make wives and gf's play, so can DnD.

AHAHAHAHA. Oh, HAHAHA.

I can't help but feel that they missed the point so very, very hard.

 

[Andhaira]

Lestifore, do you mean the male players who pretend to be females? Just curious. I personally am a MMO hater, but can kind of understand why they went the route of drawing in MMOR's and am curious as your comment.

 

[Lesifoere]

Ah, no, it's not the male players who pretend to be female: there really are quite a lot of female players who play WoW, some as hardcore raiders/PvPers even. The point, though, that part of it is the medium and--more importantly--the ability to conceal the fact that you're female. There's also the visual aspect; people who are into videogames aren't necessarily also into tabletop.

 

[Roofler]

so very, very hard.

So you go for the bullet dildo rather than the jelly one?

 

[Elhoim]

Great post, Andhaira. Thanks for the info.

 

[Kingston]

"Vancian spellcasting (memorizing spells in slots) is mostly gone."

):

 

[Volourn]

"Dwarves (females don't have beards anymore"

They never rally did. This is a piss poor myth. Most dwarven females don't have beards, and the only females who really bother to grow them are adventurers who are trying to disguise themselves when in non dwarven lands.

I love the memorizing system.

The changes proposed to the Realms, and alignment system is stupid.

 

[Andhaira]

Great post, Andhaira. Thanks for the info.

Hey you're welcome Elhorim. Just think fans of crpg's should know whats in store for them in future dnd pc rpg's.

Volodun, most dwarven women did have beards in all previous dndn versions. This time they are deliberately sexing up female dwarves, and making them more feminie artistically. I think its to lure in more women; maybe they think women are turned off from playing dwarves because they have to have beards or something.

Oh and speaking of dwarves, their Darkvision is gone, replaceed by low light vision. In fact, darkvision may only be either reserved for monsters, or gone altogather. ( it led to too much probelms for poor gm's, who had to describe a room separetely to pc's with normal vision, pc's with low light vision, pc's with darkvision 60ft, and pc's with darkvision 120ft.)

 

[thesheeep]

"Vancian spellcasting (memorizing spells in slots) is mostly gone."

):

Why the sad face?
It's actually a good thing. I always found it to be plain stupid that a spellcaster had to "memorize" a spell at the beginning of a day just to be able to cast it only once. Always was a very weird and strange abstraction of the "fact" that casting spells is exhausting. This is the reason every Sorceror with a good spell selection was simply superior to a Wizard.

If this is only true for higher spells now, so that others can be cast always, it might actually make Wizards more fun to play.

 

[Lumpy]

How the fuck did memorizing spells ever make sense?

 

[Ismaul]

"Dwarves (females don't have beards anymore"
They never rally did. This is a piss poor myth.

He's right, guys. Check your 3.5e manual.

How the fuck did memorizing spells ever make sense?

Because Vance said so.

"Vancian spellcasting (memorizing spells in slots) is mostly gone."

):

You see that mostly? There's still going to be resource management. They're actually extending to all characters. There's going to be abilities/powers usable per day, per encounter, and at will.

 

[kingcomrade]

so now in novels npc's will use the new 4E magic system

Haha, what. I've never read any DnD books, do they actually have wizards rest for eight hours after fightan?

Tome of Battle

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

-The spell plague is the developers answer to the common complaint that pc's are always overshadowed by npc's.

what

 

[Volourn]

"Volodun, most dwarven women did have beards in all previous dndn versions."

Nah. Check out the Complete Guide of Dwarves. That should put that myth to bed. In fact, one of the pics I remember in that book is one of a relatively hot/cute chick dancing on a table. Not exactly the dwarf emale people think of. And, that's 2E.

What does seperate dwarf females from other races is that they are able to grow beards at all; but it's not the norm for them. Not even close.


"How the fuck did memorizing spells ever make sense?"

Use your common sense. Or read the many D&D references detailing it. Memorizing is EASILY the best magic system ever.


"Oh and speaking of dwarves, their Darkvision is gone, replaceed by low light vision."

That's dissapointing.


"( it led to too much probelms for poor gm's, who had to describe a room separetely to pc's with normal vision, pc's with low light vision, pc's with darkvision 60ft, and pc's with darkvision 120ft.)"

What a lame excuse... used by inept and lazy DMs. With that theory, might as well disallow PCs to have access to spells like Fly, or Teleport as that could mess up a DM's planned encounter or adventure.

 

[JarlFrank]

-The spell plague is the developers answer to the common complaint that pc's are always overshadowed by npc's.

what

I guess they mean "All important and mighty NPCs are dead because of the plague, and now the player characters can become at least ten times as mighty as the mightiest NPC in the game."

 

[1eyedking]

"Vancian spellcasting (memorizing spells in slots) is mostly gone."

Yay!

Now if they could only remove the universal classes so that in my next adventure I'm not tempted to include that nightmarish cat-Barbarian(1)/Rogue(6) who fought with a sword and a buckler strapped to its paws?

 

[Jasede]

"Vancian spellcasting (memorizing spells in slots) is mostly gone."

):

This. This was maybe the only D&D mechanic I genuinely and utterly liked. It made being a wizard difficult. You had to be prepared, and since mostly you could only guess what came ahead, a player really could be a wizard and try for an intelligent spell-selection.

Now the only D&D mechanic I liked is gone.

):

 

[Xi]

"How the fuck did memorizing spells ever make sense?"

Use your common sense. Or read the many D&D references detailing it. Memorizing is EASILY the best magic system ever.

I always felt that the memorization system was an abstraction to the flow of the game. This is especially so in a video game setting using the rules. In Table Top the GM can easily control how often the player is able to sleep and renew his spells, but in a video game players tend to sleep and renew their spells after each fight. The game-play of these system often required this too.(Sleep, and renew spells, or die) This is just lame and difficult to control in such a setting. It takes the player out of the game and is purely a meta-gaming mechanic that abstracts from the flow of modern video gaming.

On another note, it's interesting that the new 4E rules are taking video gaming into consideration. Seems like there is more of a balance in terms of design since these new rules will obviously be adapted to video games. I'm not sure why either, but the BG2 2E rules seemed to flow better for a video game than any of the modern 3E rules. NWN games were mostly a travesty of too many micro-rules in my eyes - though I still enjoyed them for the most part. They just seem weighted down by annoying rules that don't make sense in a lot of cases.(Having trouble thinking of a specific example, but I'm sure it'll come to me - it's just how I felt the entire time I've played them.) BG2 just worked much better to me, though it may be nostalgia. /shrug