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Dungeon Rats - first impressions and general feedback

Tigranes

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I've seen this sentiment repeated by a lot of people from the early stages of the game's release, however, I'm playing it atm and have to abandon my first run quite a way into the game as I've completely run out of both Liquid Fire and Bombs & all the reagents needed to make them.

& it was from comments like this that made me comfortable in using them when I did (usually for boss-like encounters or to first-turn an enemy bomber) & I still don't feel like I've been liberal with them, quite the opposite. I've also completely run out of Healing Salves without ever using more than 2 after any fight.

Eh. That just means you've used them way more than I or numerous other Codexers did, since it's unlikely that you missed a ton of loot to pick up in this game.

It's a long time ago but I remember being able to pop out one or two every time I was in a really tough spot, which obviously isn't every battle or every other battle. For me the primary use is actually in creating chokepoints. Depending on your build, you're eventually going to come up against an enemy type that you can't afford to go toe-to-toe with; maybe their DEX is too high and you can't hit or dodge them, maybe they are really good at breaking your shields or poisoning you. In one build I remember using a couple in the final fight in the first area by the elevator to manage the horde.

Alpha striking enemies in random battles or using two salves after every fight is quite a lot, you know. A 'regular fight' where things go according to plan shouldn't really require consumables - if they are a necessary part of how you fight then you're struggling. If you have to do that to survive, that suggests you're always taking loans to keep going and you need to adjust build/tactics/difficulty.\
 

Tigranes

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& I'm pretty sure the devs here have implemented deliberate 'butthurt generation' code into their supposedly 'you will all play as equals' difficulty, as more than one, noticeably so for a very small sample size, I would be left with one enemy left on the field with, like, 5 hp left & my archers would all miss/get dodged & the hammer dude would hit for 3 and another miss/dodge & the enemy would get that one last turn & … wait for it... fire off a critical for 17 & up until that point I'd managed to get through the fight with virtually zero damage... as I say, noticeably so, on many occasions.

Just a little venting here, as you can imagine... I mean, that's the whole point of the game isn't it? Just a venting generating device? I mean, it's not actually about 'finding the solution' is it, it's just about 'coping' really isn't it...

What about the time when you were left hanging on by a few HP, and you get off that crit to blow off the enemy's head? Or the time when you know the next two attacks would kill you, but by Jove, your man dodges one of them to survive another turn and win the day?

Unless there is clear evidence supported by actual code or a large sample experiment, complaining about RNG is like stone age man going ooga booga at an unweighted dice roll.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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You got farther than me to get to the same conclusion, wasn't the backtracking too tedious or does it get better ?

I wonder if i should give it another go sometimes, maybe i should just wait their next game as they said this one was just to ease the waiting for their next "marvel".

The backtracking was infuriating mainly because of the constant stop and starts of all the "crawl through, climb up, jump over" interruptions to basic travel, & long empty corridors with very slow walking, but initially these things worked well as atmospheric world-building. Shame it doesn't work with backtracking. Backtracking aslo doesn't work so well with hyper-linear adventures with no discoverable shortcuts.

I'll probably give it another go. Probably a 'fuck it' dual wielding hammer build or that tank build I never got to make.
 

Parabalus

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You got farther than me to get to the same conclusion, wasn't the backtracking too tedious or does it get better ?

I wonder if i should give it another go sometimes, maybe i should just wait their next game as they said this one was just to ease the waiting for their next "marvel".

The backtracking was infuriating mainly because of the constant stop and starts of all the "crawl through, climb up, jump over" interruptions to basic travel, & long empty corridors with very slow walking, but initially these things worked well as atmospheric world-building. Shame it doesn't work with backtracking. Backtracking aslo doesn't work so well with hyper-linear adventures with no discoverable shortcuts.

I'll probably give it another go. Probably a 'fuck it' dual wielding hammer build or that tank build I never got to make.

There are a few shortcuts though, there's one right next to the big worm for instance.
 

Tigranes

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At the risk of aweighing, just another post to say: all RPGs have a steep decline in difficulty once you learn the ropes, but AOD/DR is especially noticeable in this. You really, really notice in your own experience how an 'impossible fight' turns into a challenging but doable fight, and then sometimes even a relative breeze, as you learn how the systems work. That doesn't necessarily mean the systems are perfect or even great, but there is a very very clear progression in the player's ability to tackle these challenges over several attempts or playthroughs. My first DR character died everywhere, all the time, even after a million playthroughs of AOD where I already went through the same curve. Now I can canter around solo and mostly not worry too much about regular fights, though I am by no means some extraordinarily good player.

Obviously, there's also nothing wrong with reducing the difficulty.
 

Parabalus

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& love how companions have completely bonkers skills, making you feel completely retarded for keeping the camp fire dudes alive instead of letting them die & saving yourself a slave or two. I was reminded of the major flaw with Geneforge, where levelling up summoned monsters is actually less productive than just letting them die & spawning new ones.

I used the campfire spear dude right up til the end, didn't find anyone to replace him with coz I killed Roxanne.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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What about the time when you were left hanging on by a few HP, and you get off that crit to blow off the enemy's head? Or the time when you know the next two attacks would kill you, but by Jove, your man dodges one of them to survive another turn and win the day?

Unless there is clear evidence supported by actual code or a large sample experiment, complaining about RNG is like stone age man going ooga booga at an unweighted dice roll.

Same shit with every RNG discussion. RNG is about breadth of random, not about random generally. The more random you make the RNG, the higher the range of random & the more avenues there are for mistrust.

In a game like this, where the puzzle is the combat it should never be about riding on the whims of extreme random, it should be about figuring out the best way to solve the situation, to which wide-berth random extremes actually works against the game's intent, if it's intent is really about solving combat puzzles, which I highly doubt as the game's intent, self-stated, is to make you die and reload a lot, then the game should never revolve around these small HP variables at the end of a fight anyway, there should be some sense of predictability within a framework of random & experience/intelligence.

& no, whether I survive with 1 HP left is irellevant, because in that situation you'd reload anyway, because you'd be using up too many consumables for it to be a viable result anyway. & enemies don't have to heal after a fight, the player does. I guess that's why you never find healing pots on enemies after a certain point.

Also, I felt able to use my firepots because, leading up to The Forge, the game text informed me "I can really smell the sulphur & fire in here" or whatever, so, logical brain thinks "Ah, firepots as rewards here"... nope, the rewards for clearing out the forge were worse than fuck all, both healing and firepots.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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At the risk of aweighing, just another post to say: all RPGs have a steep decline in difficulty once you learn the ropes, but AOD/DR is especially noticeable in this. You really, really notice in your own experience how an 'impossible fight' turns into a challenging but doable fight, and then sometimes even a relative breeze, as you learn how the systems work. That doesn't necessarily mean the systems are perfect or even great, but there is a very very clear progression in the player's ability to tackle these challenges over several attempts or playthroughs. My first DR character died everywhere, all the time, even after a million playthroughs of AOD where I already went through the same curve. Now I can canter around solo and mostly not worry too much about regular fights, though I am by no means some extraordinarily good player.

Obviously, there's also nothing wrong with reducing the difficulty.

I play all games on the setting the game was balanced around & recommended to play, first time out at least. It's not about difficulty, I was creaming the game up until I ran out of the necessary ingredients to continue.

So it's more a survival game than an RPG. I lost because I ran out of consumables. Because without foreknowledge one has no idea how many consumables are available in the game & so no idea when a battle should be reloaded... ie not just because someone died, but because you lost too much HP or you had to use too many consumables...
 

Tigranes

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To be clear, I'm not trying to say you suck at the game or anything. I don't really have any way of knowing that without watching you play. What I'm saying is that as a general rule, if you are winning battles by virtue of a finite resource (e.g. a fate point, an empower button, use of limited consumables), then what that suggests is that you are taking loans to keep going. Because you're going to run out of that shit. So if you are using fire bombs every battle or every other battle, then you need to reconsider your strategy/build/difficulty; the game does not depend on you using those things regularly to win.

"I was creaming the game until I ran out of ingredients and now I'm stuck => this is a survival game" doesn't make sense to me. I could use a scroll of paralysis and the storm thing in POE, or a scroll of time stop in BG2, every battle and cream the game, but that doesn't mean it's a 'survival game'. I'm not sure any of this really has anything to do with DR being designed in a particularly weird manner - the way it handles consumable scarcity & supply is pretty standard RPG fare (right down to not telegraphing how rare they are).

Maybe it's my fault. Back I said back in the day that consumables are "plentiful" in DR, I didn't mean that you could use them all the time. I mean that in AOD, they were very rare, and using even a single pot was a special occasion you had to think long and hard about, because you might really need that one pot later. In DR, it's not that scarce - and if you think this single fire pot could turn the entire battle your way, then you are usually fine with using it.

Because that's what fire pots can do in AOD/DR. They can turn the entire battle your way depending on how you use them. So if someone were to use them all the time, of course they would do very well - and then get in trouble once they ran out.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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To be clear, I'm not trying to say you suck at the game or anything. I don't really have any way of knowing that without watching you play. What I'm saying is that as a general rule, if you are winning battles by virtue of a finite resource (e.g. a fate point, an empower button, use of limited consumables), then what that suggests is that you are taking loans to keep going. Because you're going to run out of that shit. So if you are using fire bombs every battle or every other battle, then you need to reconsider your strategy/build/difficulty; the game does not depend on you using those things regularly to win.

"I was creaming the game until I ran out of ingredients and now I'm stuck => this is a survival game" doesn't make sense to me. I could use a scroll of paralysis and the storm thing in POE, or a scroll of time stop in BG2, every battle and cream the game, but that doesn't mean it's a 'survival game'. I'm not sure any of this really has anything to do with DR being designed in a particularly weird manner - the way it handles consumable scarcity & supply is pretty standard RPG fare (right down to not telegraphing how rare they are).

Maybe it's my fault. Back I said back in the day that consumables are "plentiful" in DR, I didn't mean that you could use them all the time. I mean that in AOD, they were very rare, and using even a single pot was a special occasion you had to think long and hard about, because you might really need that one pot later. In DR, it's not that scarce - and if you think this single fire pot could turn the entire battle your way, then you are usually fine with using it.

Because that's what fire pots can do in AOD/DR. They can turn the entire battle your way depending on how you use them. So if someone were to use them all the time, of course they would do very well - and then get in trouble once they ran out.

& to be clear, did you read the part where we've already discussed when and where I used them & how obnoxious the game is in supplying them? You know, like how you don't get any for the whole first part of the game & then suddenly you have six of them & then suddenly the game stops giving them to you.

You know, like how games usually gradually introduce things that are more powerful & then they become a normal part of gameplay. Either firebombs are supposed to become a part of gameplay or they're not, duh. How hard is that to understand. They're ridiculously overpowered and completely against everything else the game is about & are just fireballs without wizards. Oh look how cool I am, I'm playing a hardcore NO WIZARDS game, now please excuse me while I go firebomb some Constructs because I'm so hardcore anti-wizard... etc.

& the whole point of Dungeon Rats & the philosophy of even having it's crafting and consumable agenda is precisely because people like VD bitch about regular RPGs where people end up with a cart-load of unused consumables at the end of the game & how the game doesn't demand you use them. And what does he make? A game where you're supposed to need to use your consumables each fight because they're somehow crucial while at the same time you're supposedly dumb for using them because... you might need them in the next fight! … the very thing he was supposed to be discouraging, duh.

To be a good tactical game which uses consumables you provide the player with what's needed for the next fight. Upon completing that fight, you supply them with the items needed for the next fight. It's the player's task to figure out why they were given XYZ consumables & to figure out when and where to use them in the next fight, with a bonus reward of possibly getting to keep one if you play really well... not to just stick 10 of these things in one room & 4 of those things in another and say "don't use 'em but here they are if you ever want to LOL". Duh.

Oh yeah, & the wording of the skill descriptions is a joke as well, Dodge skill value 9 description: "You are almost impossible to hit now" LOL, get's slaughtered by the next mook who looks at you. Wow, great sense of humour, I'll give the game a full pass for that alone... not.
 

Tigranes

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I don't know why you're so angry, but I tried to explain to you multiple times that consumables aren't crucial to each fight. Have fun, or not, as you like!
 
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They might've changed the scarcity of resources since release. I know I tore through the game when it launched and felt like I was getting swamped with goodies, especially in comparison to AoD (Which didn't make much sense given Dungeon Rats' setting) and bitched about it a little in my review, but I haven't replayed yet. I also went through with a 10CHA character since I wanted every scrap of AoD fluff I could pick up.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Oh yeah, and another thing...

Having party-size entirely dependent on Charisma.

Meaning if you want a party-based game you have to gimp yourself. And then gimp yourself even further by diluting your SP pool. Yeah, great cRPGing there. Not.

Seriously, we've had so many years of VD's bitching about what is or isn't a good RPG or RPG feature & then when he gets to put his money where his mouth is we end up with a Choose Your Own Adventure & then a Survival Pseuo-Tactical 'thingy'. I mean, really. Did he never enjoy any actual cRPGs & take inspiration from any of them? Or is he just a guy who wants to turn X-Com into a story-driven medieval depression quest?
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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They might've changed the scarcity of resources since release. I know I tore through the game when it launched and felt like I was getting swamped with goodies, especially in comparison to AoD (Which didn't make much sense given Dungeon Rats' setting) and bitched about it a little in my review, but I haven't replayed yet. I also went through with a 10CHA character since I wanted every scrap of AoD fluff I could pick up.

I'm assuming they must have, because I have no idea what the fuck all these people are blathering about. I seriously doubt all these dudes are getting zero damage every combat without 30 reloads each time until the RNG hits that perfect spot. I mean, this:

using two salves after every fight is quite a lot, you know.

Has got to be a troll post. One healing Salve is, like, 20/25 HP even at their best. That's one of your guys being hit once by a critical strike, or twice from most tougher opponents. Unless you're turn 1'ing everything or you're utterly maxed out on Dodge/Block in expense of all else & reloading for perfect RNG then even stupid piss easy battles result in 10 HP lost here and 8 HP there amongst the gang & there are hardly any piss easy fights...
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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I used the campfire spear dude right up til the end, didn't find anyone to replace him with coz I killed Roxanne.

Reading the spoilers in this thread combined with you saying you went 10 CHA, you would have been able to hire Rayner or whatever he's called, the tank NPC just before the Forge forge, who's supposedly the most OP NPC. You don't get him even with 8 CHA.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Can't you just craft throwing knives for the girl and kill everything with her?

She comes with three choices for development, Daggers, Crossbow & throwing weapons. When you first get her all these are OP & yes, you can hose people down with flying daggers & throwing axes or whatever, but by the time of the enforcer fight, 6 in throwing means she's just chucking 0s and the occasional 5 at people. As she was presented to us as a crossbow queen, I levelled crossbows, which is still cool, but not good enough by itself to take out 7 mooks 1st turn.
 

Saduj

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Has got to be a troll post. One healing Salve is, like, 20/25 HP even at their best. That's one of your guys being hit once by a critical strike, or twice from most tougher opponents. Unless you're turn 1'ing everything or you're utterly maxed out on Dodge/Block in expense of all else & reloading for perfect RNG then even stupid piss easy battles result in 10 HP lost here and 8 HP there amongst the gang & there are hardly any piss easy fights...

If you are not leveling alchemy on your main character, don't craft any healing salves until you have Ismael. Using the shitty ones you find early game is fine but don't waste alchemy supplies crafting shitty low level stuff (except anti-venom if you need it). Pre-buff all non-ranged characters with anti-venom before any fight with poisonous critters. It sounds like you are using bombs/fire during the right fights but maybe too many? Killing alchemists before they can throw their stuff at you will net you more consumables than it costs. One bomb plus crossbow strikes should be enough to kill any alchemist. Softening up bosses with bombs is fine but not necessary all the time. Don't forget to use nets. If you save your bombs, you can use them to bomb the toughest bosses to death, making those fights so much easier. In general you want to be taking no more than 40 damage per fight. For most routine fights, it should be less. For touch fights, 60-70 is acceptable but these are exceptions. If you're taking 60 damage in every fight, you need to rework your strategies. If you're not leveling crafting on your main character, you'll want to get Heiron up to level 6 crafting. You can do this by taking him into two easy fights. The first is the 1st Roxana fight, which is the fight immediately after you find him. The other is the optional scorpion fight in Rock Bottom (the one where you have to climb down the cliff to find them). Skip that fight until you get Heiron if you are not crafting with your main character. Getting Heiron to level 6 crafting makes a big difference. You don't want to take him into the 2nd Roxana fight because you'll have to do the next fight with him too and that is a tough one. If you're leveling crossbows on Roxana, don't forget to give her two loaded hand crossbows in her belt slots (you find hand crossbows in a chest by where you get Heiron).

That's about all I can remember right now.....
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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If you are not leveling alchemy on your main character, don't craft any healing salves until you have Ismael. Using the shitty ones you find early game is fine but don't waste alchemy supplies crafting shitty low level stuff (except anti-venom if you need it).

Well, I had 3 in Alchemy before I crafted any healing potions because the game required that much to even pick all the Alchemy plants. Three in crating means your healing pots are worth 15 HP, even waiting for Ishmail means they will be worth just 25 HP each. You'll need to use some at 15 HP each & I was soon at level 4 in Alchemy in order to craft bombs, which means healing pots were worth 20. So, yes, I did indeed pretty much wait until the pots were worth something proper & barely ever used them before finding Ishmail. As an example of how fucked up the drops are after a fight: I went into a particularly hard bug fight with no Salves left & about 20 rations, upon completing the fight I was rewarded with about 5 rations. Likewise with the Forge fight, there were no salves or healing roots as a reward, just a few rations, about 40, which wasn't enough by that point to heal the entire party, even though I defeated the Forge boss with zero bombs, zero Liquid Fires & still came out with only about 50 damage all round among all 4 characterss, meaning I had to go into the Enforcer fight with one character at half health. No healing pots after a fucking Boss fight? For real? But even still, even at full health, my swordsman with the best armour in the game at that point dies 1st turn as does Roxanna, Ishmail to a bombardment of attacks from 4 enemies & Roxanna to a bomb. Even if I avoid the bomb first turn & have Ishmail survive the first turn, I'm hanging by a thread for the second turn with no means to net up 6 mooks & no bombs or fire to lighten the amount of incoming assaults & acid is too slow.

But this is all meta-knowledge, a first time spoiler-free run would not know any of this to make these kind of decisions, even if the basics are common-sense, the actual reward structure has no discernible pattern or routine you can learn as you go, in fact it fools you into thinking that there is a routine by having more normal and expected healing rewards after big fights, but then just stops doing it at some point.

Pre-buff all non-ranged characters with anti-venom before any fight with poisonous critters.

Yes, as soon as I realised you can pre-buff anti-poison this is what I was doing, I had no issue with the amount of anti-poison consumables, there's plenty of that. I still have about 7 of those left at this point. Even here, in the early game it would be great if pre-buffing was made clear as an option to the player, because normally one uses Antidotes in games after one is poisoned, that's what the word means, you rarely pre-buff poison resistance unless it's called a Resistance Potion. So, bad communication here. Still, it's something I managed to figure out anyway.

It sounds like you are using bombs/fire during the right fights but maybe too many? Killing alchemists before they can throw their stuff at you will net you more consumables than it costs. One bomb plus crossbow strikes should be enough to kill any alchemist. Softening up bosses with bombs is fine but not necessary all the time. Don't forget to use nets. If you save your bombs, you can use them to bomb the toughest bosses to death, making those fights so much easier.

Yes, that's right. I never used my bombs first try at a battle & only if I felt I had to on reload X. By this point in the game I've probably had about 6 bombs? Maybe 8? And this goes back to what I was saying earlier, after you do the Roxanne fight you start getting bombs & your own Alchemy skill is now high enough to allow you to craft them, you then start getting bombs quite regularly, as Ishmail has some & then you start killing Alchemists who have them. But then the game suddenly stops giving them to you, so, much like the Healing Pot problem, the game is suggesting to you a reward structure & then removing it once you're used to it.

And again we're back to meta-knowledge, a first time spoiler-free run would not know any of this, but, duh, yeah, as soon as you've played it once you'll know what you have at your disposal for the next run. It would be great if the devs could confirm how many bombs you get before the Enforcer fight in the current version, or are available & whether they have nerfed them over the years etc. Like I said to the other guy, either they're part of the tactics of the game or they're not.

& yes, my nets were my only means to win the Forge fight. I had about 3 nets left going into the Enforcer fight, but I barely had a chance to use them.

In general you want to be taking no more than 40 damage per fight. For most routine fights, it should be less. For touch fights, 60-70 is acceptable but these are exceptions.

Yes, that is pretty much how it went.

If you're not leveling crafting on your main character, you'll want to get Heiron up to level 6 crafting. You can do this by taking him into two easy fights. The first is the 1st Roxana fight, which is the fight immediately after you find him. The other is the optional scorpion fight in Rock Bottom (the one where you have to climb down the cliff to find them). Skip that fight until you get Heiron if you are not crafting with your main character. Getting Heiron to level 6 crafting makes a big difference. You don't want to take him into the 2nd Roxana fight because you'll have to do the next fight with him too and that is a tough one. If you're leveling crossbows on Roxana, don't forget to give her two loaded hand crossbows in her belt slots (you find hand crossbows in a chest by where you get Heiron).

This is all meta-knowledge & stuff I've already said I'll be doing on my next run. Though I've no doubt some people gave it a shot on their first run because they assumed they'd never bother with points in crafting at all.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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& another thing, but unrelated to the actual game:

At this point I was obviously looking for a wiki before I started saying stuff on a forum & looking for other general info on where people tended to get stuck during their first run. The game, as yet, appears to have no wiki, so it doesn't seemed to have enthused that many people, though I did manage to find an Alchemy guide hidden on a forum discussion. & most of the forum discussions concern the game in the first few weeks of release & people are just exchanging exploits that have likely been nerfed out the game anyway. Most people seemed to be saying how abundant consumables were though & this simply isn't the case.

Also, the reason Antidotes aren't scarce is because you get billions of stingers as rewards on top of the Alchemy plants, no other Alchemy product has other additional options. & the amount of food rations per bug-kill is never established, it appears to be random, from fuck all to abundant, if this is some random dice roll, this would explain a lot as well. Maybe I rolled 3 1s after killing a bunch of bugs for my ration reward?
 

Parabalus

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The game is all meta-knowledge and exploiting, not much to say. The difficulty even got increased with later patches, try playing 1.0 maybe?

I used the campfire spear dude right up til the end, didn't find anyone to replace him with coz I killed Roxanne.

Reading the spoilers in this thread combined with you saying you went 10 CHA, you would have been able to hire Rayner or whatever he's called, the tank NPC just before the Forge forge, who's supposedly the most OP NPC. You don't get him even with 8 CHA.

He was pretty bad on release, he got buffed afterwards.
 

Fenix

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There is guy on steam Kirill or something who said he finished the game with archer with 0 in defensive skills, I guess dodge. Solo, maybe even IM - possibly not.

After I saw his post I decided to go that way, only in two man team - Marcus and my crossbowman.
The hardest experience so far, I got to a last fight before that berserker guy after Roxane - on IM.
Abandoned it not because I failed IMin that fight, but because game failed to save properly, so I should start from the first fight with Roxane.
Obviously my char had 0 in Dodge.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Well defence stats do seem to be complete bollocks.

I just tried out an almost pure block axe-man build:

Helmet of DR3, Shield of DR7, Ant Armour DR2, the best you can get at that point without somehow mending Barka's armour with only 1 point in crafting, Defence rating of over 100, about 101 I think, killing Barka before doing the lower level ants due to no crafting to make antidotes, 7 points in Block, two companions to distract a couple of guards & what happens? The Spearman dude before the first forge just pokes the crap out of me like I was naked, 7 Damage, 9 Damage, 6 Damage, he's not even a boss, just some Spear dude. I can't even fight back, I'm just supposed to be a sponge while the other two dudes clear out the crap, which worked great for the first two quests & against Barka, but here, suddenly I might as well be naked.

Now I'll give maxing weaponry & crit a go instead & see if it's just the usual game of speed.

(Yeah, I could have used the bombs on them & all that crap, but apparently I'm not supposed to use them if I'm so damn good ;) )

Maybe I'll see if I can mend Barka's armour first & report back on what difference that makes.

Edit: Nope, didn't think so, I need 7.0lb of Bronze & the game only has 5.8 worth of Bronze I can decompose with 1 point in crafting, unless I decompose my own Axe. Oh well, fuck it, I'll carry the spade or something & see what happens.

Edit 2: Nope, even adding my own axe only takes it to 6.3 & the game won't let you part-mend stuff just to add a few more DR. Oh well, now for an attack build instead.
 
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