Game News Dragon Age semi-annual update

[Ladonna]

Listen to obediah, for he is wise.

However, much as I agree with you obi, Bio will want to flesh these party members out with Romances, etc.

I would rather Bio took 4 of their characters and made them Romanceable for their Bio fans, and made another heap with various small quests, banter, etc. Then follow on into Obediahs ideas. :idea:

That would make people think about whether dropping a party member is a good idea...or not?

I suppose there would have to be 'die rolls' as to what an adventurer did after leaving as to A) does she go home or....and B) whether she lives/dies/ gets thrown in a dungeon prison/etc. C)If she left angry with the party, and joined, to use a Bio example, the Maulers of Undermountain, she could then hiss and rant and urge her new party to attack the player characters.

Okay, I will stop before my imagination gets away with me.

 

[suibhne]

Seriously, I'd be happy with a party size of 5. Any less than that starts to feel very limited to me, and 3 is downright threadbare. Re. the base camp: as others have said, the characters need a plausible reason to stick around, something which makes sense in their character development. And they should also have a good reason to leave, occasionally - just as party members like Keldorn left during BG2, initiating potential quests. Basically, the "base camp" approach tends to make characters appear purely instrumental, as if they're only there to help the player, and you have to work overtime to counter that mechanic and give them independent life.

 

[kris]

It is really easy. If you can carry around a sword of fire, frost, giantkilling and acid (together with everything else) then you have never have to suffer the consequence of not choosing the best suited weapon for the situation. Maybe a even better example is the hundreds of grenades in KOTOR as some was really useful in different situations. No worries I had a fucking truck in tow.

Oh noes, it will take me <b>6</b> rounds to kill the giant rather than <b>5</b>! Woe is me!

Yeah, I'm still more worried about having to go to work in Pink Socks.

The current trend of invincibility in games is no excuse. in part it is an effect of it, not that I believe the current games would be hard even then.

Hmm. I guess the 6 party members not currently in your lineup is in fact standing behind you with all your equipment giving it to you at the blink of an eye. That makes sense. Yup.

 

[Sarvis]

See, the thing is... I always thought by "choices and consequences" you guys meant things like "Oh shit, I just assassinated Delseria and now her entire family is trying to kill me!"

Not "Oh shit, I sold that sword to make space in my inventory so now this battle will take slightly longer!"

If THAT is what amounts to "roleplaying" then sure, you can RP in a video game.

 

[obediah]

See, the thing is... I always thought by "choices and consequences" you guys meant things like "Oh shit, I just assassinated Delseria and now her entire family is trying to kill me!"

Not "Oh shit, I sold that sword to make space in my inventory so now this battle will take slightly longer!"

If THAT is what amounts to "roleplaying" then sure, you can RP in a video game.

Dialogue trees are a nice part of roleplaying, but there are some other features we like to mix in there. Role playing involves choices in development and preparation as well as dialogue and actio...eh fuck it you're not worth the time. Shut up and go read some choose your own adventure book, or play some Hentai "roleplaying" dialogue trees.

 

[Sarvis]

See, the thing is... I always thought by "choices and consequences" you guys meant things like "Oh shit, I just assassinated Delseria and now her entire family is trying to kill me!"

Not "Oh shit, I sold that sword to make space in my inventory so now this battle will take slightly longer!"

If THAT is what amounts to "roleplaying" then sure, you can RP in a video game.

Dialogue trees are a nice part of roleplaying, but there are some other features we like to mix in there. Role playing involves choices in development and preparation as well as dialogue and actio...eh fuck it you're not worth the time. Shut up and go read some choose your own adventure book, or play some Hentai "roleplaying" dialogue trees.

There's certainly more roleplaying in a Choose Your Own Adventure book than you'll ever get out of inventory management.

 

[Oxman]

:!: I think the injury thing is brilliant! :!: Death IS an option but it doesn't have to be the ONLY option. Maybe a dumb goblin 'kills' you only to find out that you were just passed out from loss of blood. When you awake, you have no money and now you have little sensation in your right arm from some sort of ischemia. I'm telling you, people, this game has to be the hope of hopes for RPG's. There hasn't been crap out there and the future doesn't look too bright....except for this one. Keep your fingers crossed!

 

[ElastiZombie]

Are you guys serious about it being one of the 3 character party games?

I'm not sure where that comes from... another assumption, I suppose? We're still looking at the party being from 4-6 total. Where it ends up exactly will depend as much on how much info we need to fit into the GUI per character as on what feels like an appropriate size for the rules system and challenge level we'd like.

Me, I like larger parties because there is more opportunities then for cross-party banter. But that tends to run pretty low on the priority list, I'm afraid.

I prefer larger parties so you can assemble a complementary group of specialists instead of having to make Jack-of-all-trades characters to cover all of your bases. It always annoyed me in NWN that you had to play a rogue or bring one along as your one henchman or be plagued by traps. Esp. when another character may have been more interesting to team up with. Of course, I always wanted to bring along nearly every joinable NPC in BG/BG2, so I may just have indecision issues.

 

[Dgaider]

so the question is how to make such setup work, how to make it more alive and interesting, how to upgrade the "NPCs storage" into an actual base.

Right. So how about it? Whether it's the Ebon Hawk, a castle or simply a camp -- what could the NPC's who aren't in your current party be made to seem active and useful rather than simply standing about as extras as you fear it will seem? We have some plans, of course, but what are your ideas?

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Since there's a dev here, I feel like touting my favored system of party. The members should be randomly generated NPCs you can recruit. The only limit is cost (you can't feed your children or yourself with stories about hanging out with The Chosen One). If an NPC dies, get a new one. Don't like some of them? Boot 'em out. You'll want to keep on old ones like in X-Com because they'll get better with experience. Sure, it will put a crimp in hand-crafted storylines involving the characters, but those always suck anyways.

 

[Vault Dweller]

so the question is how to make such setup work, how to make it more alive and interesting, how to upgrade the "NPCs storage" into an actual base.

Right. So how about it? Whether it's the Ebon Hawk, a castle or simply a camp -- what could the NPC's who aren't in your current party be made to seem active and useful rather than simply standing about as extras as you fear it will seem? We have some plans, of course, but what are your ideas?

Er, did you miss my earlier post?
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... ht=#281257

 

[elander_]

There's certainly more roleplaying in a Choose Your Own Adventure book than you'll ever get out of inventory management.

Don't try to purge rpgs from their "useless" skills and common features. There is nothing to purge away from classic rpg features that won't dumb down gameplay. Try to learn more from the classics before you call it useless.

One feature i miss a lot and that was present at least a Fallout quest i remenber was the possibility to combine useless junk to create a pole with dynamite on the end and attach it to a mine car on rails to open a mine entrance.

This is clearly an heritage from adventure games. This ability to interact with the surrownding environment gives an extra dimension to the game. Clearly people often choose to remove the junk from their games and simplify inventory (or in other words do a nazi feature purge) instead of trying to make inventory and all the junk you can carry more interesting. Its allways easier to delete than to build and improve upon.

 

[ElastiZombie]

so the question is how to make such setup work, how to make it more alive and interesting, how to upgrade the "NPCs storage" into an actual base.

Right. So how about it? Whether it's the Ebon Hawk, a castle or simply a camp -- what could the NPC's who aren't in your current party be made to seem active and useful rather than simply standing about as extras as you fear it will seem? We have some plans, of course, but what are your ideas?

Off the top of my head, the first thing that occurs to me is some kind of outlaw camp type scenario as your home base. While you are there, you can send out groups or single members to act as diplomats, raiding parties, spies, traders, etc. while you choose a few top party members to accompany you on your latest mission. Or better yet, you can choose from your "quest" list which one you want to attend to personally based on your skills and the skills of you team. If you are Johnny Charisma you can go on the diplomatic mission, if you are Sneaky Pete you can go on the recon mission. And the other missions will succeed or fail based on the party members you assign to them. Of course, there will most likely be some missions that are flagged for your personal attention that cannot be accomplished by anyone but you. That's my first kick at the can.

 

[Crichton]

Right. So how about it? Whether it's the Ebon Hawk, a castle or simply a camp -- what could the NPC's who aren't in your current party be made to seem active and useful rather than simply standing about as extras as you fear it will seem? We have some plans, of course, but what are your ideas?

Well, if you're dead set on it, there are a lot of ways you could have these characters spend their time meaningfully, examples- (all of these presume that you keep track of some standarized length of time, so if you visit a city, that takes one time step, explore a dungeon, 1 time step, and so on)

Crafting- If you leave the blacksmith dwarf fighter behind for one time step, he might make something cool.

(other options, wizard makes bizzare contraption, thief makes traps, etc)

Stealing- If you leave the hot chick leather-clad thief behind for one time step, she might steal something cool (but moves your party towards TEH DARK SIDEE!!!!!!!1111!#)

Healing- If anyone "goes down" during a time point, they need to spend time in the field hospital, how long that takes depends on who (if anyone) you have assigned as the healer during that time point (say one time point if there's a healer, two without)

Enslaving Nations through Necromancy- If you leave frankenstein the necromancer in his lab for one time step, he'll create a few zombies that you can use on the next mission.

(alternatively, the druid scrounges up a few animals or even, the diplomat convinces a few local idots to act as cannon fodder)

In Prison- If you've had it up to here with some story-critical NPC that conflicts with your character's world view, you may not be able to kill them and they may not be able to leave your party, but you can put them in jail as long as you've assigned a jailer (perfect for that big dumb half orc who can't do anything else)

Changing class- If you've unlocked the dialogue option to make your very religious dwarven blacksmith study to be a priest, it takes like 3 time points, so he has to miss a few missions / not make anything for a while.

Scouting- If you leave the ranger behind with orders to scout around, he might come back with some information to flesh out the plot.

Fighting amongst themselves- If two NPCs that hate each other are both assignment-free and neither is in jail, they'll fight it out and the player gets to watch the fight.

 

[zenslinger]

It would be cool if the other NPCs are working on a separate bunch of quests and have goals of their own. Could even show up and help the PC's party at a critical moment or something.

For one thing, this would give a reason for their leveling up -- so if you choose someone to be in your party again, you're not saddled with a weakling. Ditto getting some items.

It's also a nice opportunity for banters. You get back to home base and NPC A and NPC B have certain things to say about each other, rubbing each other the wrong way during their travels, or even have their own romances. All tied to waypoints in the PC's progress along the critical path.

 

[obediah]

so the question is how to make such setup work, how to make it more alive and interesting, how to upgrade the "NPCs storage" into an actual base.

Right. So how about it? Whether it's the Ebon Hawk, a castle or simply a camp -- what could the NPC's who aren't in your current party be made to seem active and useful rather than simply standing about as extras as you fear it will seem? We have some plans, of course, but what are your ideas?

Assuming a colorful and diverse cast of characters, I can't think of universal reason. Tailor the reason to each individual - a personal debt, he command of a superior, a bard singing your story, a thief fleecing the locals.

It's just too convenient if everyone has such a reason though. A tiered system where some join only the party, and others stay in your camp would be good.

I'd really like to see the return of the in-party conflicts from BG, and extended to the base camp. If I leave Sir LawAndOrder, and Sneaky McEvilMurderFiend sitting around the campfire for two weeks, one should be gone or dead when I get back.

So much time is spent on histories, dialogues, and interactions to flesh out Bioware characters. But either through myopia or console-itis, you're pulling the supports out from under your tower of character development.

1) Risk - I've been playing these games for 20 years or so, and nothing builds a connection to a character like eaking through combat at 2 hp, or getting them bandaged a round from death. Even with no backstory, I cared more about those characters than any of the KoToR meatshields. For christs sake, I didn't even need to wait for the next battle for them to get back up and start plugging away.

2) Staying in Character/Not doing stupid things - Look at all the goofy stuff in Lost or that scene in Armageddon where Buscemi goes crazy for no reason and starts shooting people with a gun. Alignment issues can't all be swept under the rug, and adventurers don't like to spend a campaign in the bull pen without a good reason.

 

[Dgaider]

Er, did you miss my earlier post?

I'm not sure how, but yeah I must have.

reasons for you to travel with this circus, i.e. what can you do for me?

This part we're actually okay with. The reason why any given NPC might travel with you varies, but is completely plausible -- and if we want, we even have a system where an unused party member could grow more disaffected as time went on. So no issues there.

speaking of circus, it would be nice if they can do something together, as a group. I mean, you have a large group (8-10?) of very capable people travelling together. Then you pick two (?) and go adventuring. What are the other 5-7 people doing? It would be great, if you were presented with some minor tasks (text adventure or the actual gameplay) for money (to feed the camp) or out of goodness of your combined hearts. You would decide what tasks to take, what side to take, and would assign duties. The success rate would depend on whom you send, what instuctions you give, personalities, etc. Going with KOTOR's Juhani example, if you send a guardian-like character, he would kill her, while if you send a consular, he would resolve it differently. A simple situation, yet it may add a lot to the camp idea, I think.

I'm not sure that the idea of sending party members to perform their own quests does all that much for me. Even if the situation is explained and you get to send someone with intructions, we're talking about a set-up and resolution done entirely within dialogue with the payoff being the NPC returning and essentially saying "done!"

If you could send those NPC's on said quest and then actually play them as a seperate party -- but my impression is that most people do not like to play characters other than the one they created for anything but a very short period.

If the idea is that this NPC would go off and earn money, would it be acceptable if you could tell them what kinds of tasks to undertake? And they would earn money according to their skill at whatever you set them to? I'm thinking a little of the way the player's Thieves Guild was set up in BG2, where you could set your guild thieves to perform a variety of tasks that would occasionally have consequences according to what you picked. Less dialogue, but perhaps still worthwhile?

Maybe taking care of the loot - selling what you don't need (through a dedicated trader in the party), buying supplies, etc.

This is interesting, perhaps. Being able to sell loot without going to town yourself, with the premise of a party member being assigned the task -- essentially they're operating as a store with a built-in delay. Perhaps you could even open up an actual store menu of items they could buy while they were off in town?

 

[Volourn]

"Well, if you're dead set on it, there are a lot of ways you could have these characters spend their time meaningfully, examples- (all of these presume that you keep track of some standarized length of time, so if you visit a city, that takes one time step, explore a dungeon, 1 time step, and so on)

Crafting- If you leave the blacksmith dwarf fighter behind for one time step, he might make something cool.

(other options, wizard makes bizzare contraption, thief makes traps, etc)

Stealing- If you leave the hot chick leather-clad thief behind for one time step, she might steal something cool (but moves your party towards TEH DARK SIDEE!!!!!!!1111!#)

Healing- If anyone "goes down" during a time point, they need to spend time in the field hospital, how long that takes depends on who (if anyone) you have assigned as the healer during that time point (say one time point if there's a healer, two without)

Enslaving Nations through Necromancy- If you leave frankenstein the necromancer in his lab for one time step, he'll create a few zombies that you can use on the next mission.

(alternatively, the druid scrounges up a few animals or even, the diplomat convinces a few local idots to act as cannon fodder)

In Prison- If you've had it up to here with some story-critical NPC that conflicts with your character's world view, you may not be able to kill them and they may not be able to leave your party, but you can put them in jail as long as you've assigned a jailer (perfect for that big dumb half orc who can't do anything else)

Changing class- If you've unlocked the dialogue option to make your very religious dwarven blacksmith study to be a priest, it takes like 3 time points, so he has to miss a few missions / not make anything for a while.

Scouting- If you leave the ranger behind with orders to scout around, he might come back with some information to flesh out the plot.

Fighting amongst themselves- If two NPCs that hate each other are both assignment-free and neither is in jail, they'll fight it out and the player gets to watch the fight."

Some of these are good dieas... so, this time, I will refrain fro calling you Fuckface.... Jerkwad.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Granted, KOTOR/JE/ME were all console-kiddy games. But DA is a PC-only RPG made...

You sure about that? I'm betting either this game get canned or come out as 360/p3 title with pc tagging along like an ugly stepbrother.

Codex hive mind at work here, people. I'm not talking about VD, either, since his opinion in this thread is clearly one of the good ones. It's hard to hold a civil discussion on these forums anymore because a whole bunch of you seem intent on spreading disinformation about the companies you have blind vendettas against.

 

[Elwro]

What could the NPC's who aren't in your current party be made to seem active and useful rather than simply standing about as extras as you fear it will seem?

Apart from what I've written above... I'll elaborate a bit on one of VD's points.

NPCs at the camp could be more useful if they performed some tasks at PC's bidding. This would be an opportunity for the PC to make a choice about his companions' behaviour. The activities should for any NPC be exclusive; e.g. your Mage could either spend his time trying to decipher the crypted Manual of Maiming, which could result in him learning a new, potentially useful spell after some time, or he could leave to see his old teacher, possibly bringing you a useful magic item. This way you'd either have the spell, or the item; it'd be especially interesting if NPC actions would interconnect. A simple example:

(class: action code: description)

Ranger: R1: hunt for the the legendary Blue Elephant to get the Warped Tusk. Warning, this will take much time and the ranger may get hurt.
R2: hunt for "normal" animals, sell the skins. A safe way of earning cash.

Druid: A1: Prepare a Potion of Cure Dumbfuckery. Who knows, this might come in handy. The process is long and the ingredients are rare, so only one dose is produced.
A2: Help the nearby villages by tending to the ill, selling healing potions etc. A safe way of earning cash.
A3: Prepare a Potion of Elephantine Strength. This is possible only if the druid knows the recipe and has the Warped Tusk, which is one of the required ingredients.

Mage: M1: decipher an old Almanach of Alchemy. This lead to learning a recipe for a Potion of Elephantine Strength, but, as the book is cursed, the Mage is morphed into a Dumbfuck if he fails some stat tests.
M2: practice spells from a certain school, leading to a small increase in effectivity.
M3: teach some easy and non-brutal magical tricks to the people from the surrounding villages. A safe way of earning cash.

Now, notice the different things the PC could try to achieve with such a "camp" of NPCs. If the whole group was short on cash, and the PC would really want to buy the Axe of Anthrax that was his dream all his life, he'd choose R2, A2, and M3. If cash was not a problem, but he'd want to have all NPCs in the camp because they might come in handy, and he would also like to avoid risks, he'd choose R2, A1 and M2. If he decided he'd want the Potion of Elephantine Strength, he should choose R1, M1 and A1 (just to be safe), and in the next turn (what should this "turn" be is another matter) he would choose A3 for the Druid. Note that this could be harmful to the Ranger and / or the Mage, and there'd be no cash or skill increases. But hey, it's PC's choice.


Note that implementing something like that would only mean writing more dialogue, and maybe creating new items. No new locations!

 

[Dgaider]

Crafting- If you leave the blacksmith dwarf fighter behind for one time step, he might make something cool.

I don't know about the actual making of items, but someone could be tasked with collecting raw ingredients? Or perhaps researching new recipes/blueprints... maybe there are some recipes that can only be acquired through research at the camp? Is that something you would actually use them for, then?

 

[Crichton]

I don't know about the actual making of items, but someone could be tasked with collecting raw ingredients? Or perhaps researching new recipes/blueprints... maybe there are some recipes that can only be acquired through research at the camp? Is that something you would actually use them for, then?

Hmm, well if I actually like my dwarven blacksmith, I have the choice between brining him with me on this dungeon and leaving him behind, he'd better do something cool if I leave him. Whether it's making a new sword or upgrading the old one. If all he does is mine some ore, that's kind of a letdown.

But seriously, the Enslaving Whole Nations with Necromancy part is still in, right?

 

[Sol Invictus]

What next? No choice necessary with equipment? A giant shared inventory with no weight or slot restrictions, shared by all characters with every item available at all times?

Oh wait, KotOR.

Now let's see what other last vestiges of choice and consequence can we stamp out ...

Why do you seem to think that tedious inventory management is fun?

Phat lewt > roleplaying.

That's my take on it.

 

[ElastiZombie]

Other ideas:
- Characters could work on improving the base camp itself: better fortifications, research labs, temples, etc. which would in turn help with research, training, and the like
- Evangelists, press gangs, recruiters, etc. to drum up new converts, soldiers, slaves, to your cause, if you have one
- Two words: Home cookin'

Edit: new idea
- Thinking time: Characters have time to consider current events, personal development, and the big picture and when the PC returns they may have new insights to share. This could lead to new clues re. a plot mystery or the development of new religious sects and philosophies, or a change in the character's behaviour

I like Crichton's idea of a healer as well: healing grievious wounds incurred in battle or nasty poisons/diseases. That way affected parties are not a total write-off but just out of commission for a while to recuperate.

 

[Sarvis]

I'm not sure that the idea of sending party members to perform their own quests does all that much for me. Even if the situation is explained and you get to send someone with intructions, we're talking about a set-up and resolution done entirely within dialogue with the payoff being the NPC returning and essentially saying "done!"

The trick is to ensure there is some strategy to it. It's not just a dialog and instant success, it's forming a party and making sure they are properly equipped for the task. For example, sending your pacifist priest on an assassination mission would be an automatic failure.

I don't know about the actual making of items, but someone could be tasked with collecting raw ingredients? Or perhaps researching new recipes/blueprints... maybe there are some recipes that can only be acquired through research at the camp? Is that something you would actually use them for, then?

Other way around. Think about it, crafting in a game, especially an RPG, usually comes down to "just dialog and instant success." The interesting part is gathering the parts, as long as it's done well.

Not that gathering materials couldn't also be done by NPCs, as per the sending them on quests thing.