Game News Dragon Age semi-annual update

[Llyranor]

All those design choices range from ok to good for me. I don't really care enough to nitpick any of them. My concern for Dragon Age is leaning more towards the writing/story, and choices and consequences related to it - which also seems to be the devs' priority, I hope.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Wait... wait... all this is fine, as long as I can enslave nations with my necromancy. This is still in, right?

Enslaving nations with necromancy is a PR cult classic. Brilliant stuff.
In case someone missed it: url=http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10515

Now back to Dave. Say what you want about him, but he's my favorite designer and he is the only developer who can drop by in the middle of a hostile/not overly favorable discussion and hold his own. Some responses are absolutely fucking brilliant. Which doesn't mean that I agree with him 100%, of course, but what the Codex would be like if people start agreeing with each other? Hmm?

Some days, there are just not as many differences between this crowd and the ones on the Bethesda forums that you mock so regularly as you would like to believe.

That's just mean.

...and besides, it's Bioware!

That's so 2003, Dave. These day it's "...and besides, it's Bethesda!" If Obsidian butchers NWN 2, Bio will become a premier choice for quality RPGs at the Codex. Imagine that.

I do, however, think it's the most traditional RPG we've done since the BG series by far and that some of you may even enjoy it.

I believe that Dragon Age will be the most awesome RPG released by a large company in a long, long time. I believe it will be a pretty good RPG. Why? Good question. Well, first of all, faith is usually blind. I want to believe that there is a good RPG in development somewhere and Bio has the resources and influence to pull that off.

My faith is based on what Dave said over the last year. Some things sound pretty good, and if they reflect what's in the game vs what Dave thinks is cool, then DA will be a pretty good game. Simple as that. Here is what I'm talking about:

http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9684
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10146
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10416

It will be a Bioware game though, so some "signature moves" are to be expected: romances, NPCs base camp - a stupid idea, really; flavor dialogue options leading nowhere, annoying immortal, "ungetridable" NPCs, etc.

A few questions, if I may.

What's the deal and reasoning behind the NPCs base camp? Purely story-driven purposes, i.e. being able to use a key NPC instantly since (s)he's with you, convinience for players having all potential party members readily available or something else?

Doesn't that remove an important choice & consequences element? Let's say you have 3 party members, and you decided to go with fighter, cleric, mage ( using simple terms). You go adventuring and eventually discover a locked door that can't be forced open. In the "traditional" setup, you either skip the door or invest into ways to open it without a thief (skills, spells, devices, etc). In the "base camp" setup, especially the one that levels everyone up automatically, all you have to do is go back, switch party members and successfully deal with whatever obstacle you are facing at the moment. What are your thoughts on that?

Also, I agree that the traditional implementation of death leads either to instant reload or ressurection, but I doubt that practically immortal NPCs a-la KOTOR is a better solution. You fixed one problem, but introduced a bigger one. At least the reload option forces you to replay hard battles until you either get it "right" or accept the death of a companion or two as a price you paid for the victory. I fought many memorable battles, and usually they are the ones I had to fight quite a few times. KOTOR battles weren't memorable, and I had zero concern for the fate of my party members for obvious reasons. Now, I'm not saying that DA will have an exactly the same combat system, but from your responses (the wound system) I didn't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about combat. Care to elaborate a bit?

 

[Jed]

Said by someone who is clueless as to what the RPG genre is.

What the fuck are you talking about? Examples, please.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Don't open that door, Jed. Sarvis has his own ideas of what RPG is all about and he's prepared to argue about it for the next 10 pages.

 

[Volourn]

"That's just mean."

Mean, yes; but terribly accurate. Sometimes the truth is mean. There's a reason why the Codex is nicknamed the 'Hive Mind'.

Just like being known as a 'Dumbfuck' might be considered mean (I consider it cute); but it's highly accurate considering the reason why I got it. LOL

Jed: You don't know what a RPG is. If you did, you'd know that BIO's later games have more role-playing in their pinky finger than either BG did espciially BG1.

Dumbass.


P.S. Outside of Jed who it seems had his girflfrind kidnapped by BIO and she was forced to give thems exual favours consideirng his outright diabloical whiney reaction to them here, this thread has become a lot cooler in the last page or so. WOWSERS!

 

[Ladonna]

Yes, and then you had to show up Volly.........

I was hoping David would show up to answer VD's questions, instead I see you ranting away with your usual tripe. I don't think your attempts to suck the collective Bioware cock here will help with that writing possie you know :wink:

 

[Sarvis]

and he's prepared to argue about it for the next 10 pages.

Nah, not really in the mood or I would have gone into it when I replied to Jed in the first place.

 

[Mr.Rocco]

Granted, KOTOR/JE/ME were all console-kiddy games. But DA is a PC-only RPG made...

You sure about that? I'm betting either this game get canned or come out as 360/p3 title with pc tagging along like an ugly stepbrother.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Based on what?

 

[Volourn]

Based on FACT. LOL


"I don't think your attempts to suck the collective Bioware cock here will help with that writing possie you know"

BIO doesn't like me. Why would they hire me (not that I'm good enough either way; but even I were, heh)?

 

[Mr.Rocco]

Based on what?

It's just a hunch but Bioware track record speaks for itself.
After nwn,
kotor
ja
me

See where I'm getting at? Bioware wants to make money and we all know where the money people think it is, and I am not going to blame them if they decided to go ahead and do console/pc. Gaider is not even sure whether it will stay as pc-only title. At least, he seems to be honest enough to admit the murky future.

 

[Araanor]

How long has this game been in the works anyway? 8 years? I'm anticipating NWN OC quality out of you, Gaider!

 

[Monolith]

Some things about DA sound very interesting, other things sound like utter bullshit. All in all I don't know enough to form a definite opinion. I enjoyed many Bioware games and it would be hypocritical if I said anything different so saying that DA will suck only because it's developed by Bioware doesn't count (for me).

I say that it's going to suck anyway though simply because my ability to expect anything decent from the RPgame industry died with "The Fall" turning out to be a steaming pile of bullshit despite the high hopes (but hey, at least the name of the game fits).

 

[Human Shield]

Death with a bunch of resurrection and jumping up from the ground after a battle are both lame. At least with resurrection you have to keep your priest alive if you don't want to travel back.

If DA doesn't have resurrection does it still have gallons of healing potions?

The problem is that HP's are really cheap. You can horde tons of potions and you don't even need them when you have a priest healing and recovering spells. And when time doesn't matter you can rest for half a year and recover from being disemboweled.

JA2 and Darklands ran things much better (and so would've Fallout if there weren't so many stimpacks). Either you can make time important, which even BG2 did slightly by making somethings harder if you took too long. Or you can actually have a balanced economic where paying for an inn, doctor, or medical stuff has some meaning like in Darklands where finding a monastery while critically injured and staying 3 days for free was a big relief (you can actually feel stumbling through the front door and collapsing because it is real gameplay).

In those games damage stays with you and you feel the effects of a big battle for a while. Party members going traumatic means they are going to be weak and in recovery for quite a while instead of a red bar that can soak damage and pop back to 100% for the price of two ale.

 

[elander_]

I do, however, think it's the most traditional RPG we've done since the BG series by far and that some of you may even enjoy it. But that will bear out whenever
the eventual PR starts, I guess. So be it.

Let me guess tons of shiny pictures, Madona voice-casting, dungeon and castle erosion and not a word about quests, linearity and rolepalying.

If the game allows the player character to progress using other skills besides combat that would be something already. When i mean progress in mean having to rely on those skills alone (a lost concept in the rpg world called specialization which has been replaced mostly by "jack of all trades, master of everything"). The game could be considered an rpg at least as good as deusex if that was the case.

But I bet, no mater what character we choose, be it warrior, thief, assassin, mage, bard, noble or whatever, they all will have to trail the exact same plot that will end exactly the same way. This alone would kill the game for me as an rpg.

 

[Voss]

You're using Deus Ex as an example of an RPG and a good game? Shut the fuck up.

At least some of us had some basis for our assumptions. You and Jed are just dribbling.

 

[Volourn]

Oh SNAP!

Codex infighting! I LOVE IT!!!

 

[elander_]

You're using Deus Ex as an example of an RPG and a good game? Shut the fuck up.

Shut the fuck up yourself. Deusex is an excellent game moron, just like System Shock or Thief. Period.

And its 1/2 of an rpg with that half being better than most rpgs. What is lacking on deusex is the second part of my post you obvioulsy failed to correlate with the first part.

Oh SNAP!

Codex infighting! I LOVE IT!!!

You're gay.

 

[Amasius]

Hm, my impression is that Biowares focus with Dragon Age is not only to make just another RPG but to create and establish an IP like DnD. They are in it for the BIG MONEY I think. If thats successful it could mean that Bioware - or Contractors - will make other games (not only RPGs), card games, Books or even movies... That could explain why it takes Bioware so long to make DA.

 

[Dgaider]

Dave, how would you describe the travel system? Does it have a world map that you travel on? Or is all travel in the 3D playing screen?

World map, for the moment, but I'm not sure how much that will change once we start testing the experience in the final engine.

Do you know if Ranged melee weapons will be included with a reach bonus? like a glaive, or halberd? or...or a spiked chain? :twisted:

That'd be cool, but nope.

Has Bioware made new races? or used existing fantasy fare?

Both.

What's the deal and reasoning behind the NPCs base camp? Purely story-driven purposes, i.e. being able to use a key NPC instantly since (s)he's with you, convinience for players having all potential party members readily available or something else?

I think first and foremost it's a convenience thing, though in Dragon Age there are some other uses for the camp -- not to mention it being important to the UI.

Doesn't that remove an important choice & consequences element? In the "base camp" setup, especially the one that levels everyone up automatically, all you have to do is go back, switch party members and successfully deal with whatever obstacle you are facing at the moment. What are your thoughts on that?

It depends on how easy you make it to get back to the camp, I suppose. If you can jump to the camp instantly from anywhere, then yes... the difference at that point between the party that travels with you and the party left at the camp is pretty irrelevant. But if you can restrict access to the camp when in unsafe areas or at least make it involve some kind of effort, then you're getting away from the "party in a pocket" feel while still allowing the player access to the camp's benefits.

After all, is it any more realistic to not take someone along at all that might be beneficial just because your party can only be so big? Not to mention that if we're going to throw some plot-critical party members at you, then there has to be some method to make them "with you" without having them in your face all the time. I mean, a story can also be done without party members like that, as well, but if you're going to do it (and there are good benefits for doing so), it should be as inobtrusive as you can make it.

Also, I agree that the traditional implementation of death leads either to instant reload or ressurection, but I doubt that practically immortal NPCs a-la KOTOR is a better solution. You fixed one problem, but introduced a bigger one. At least the reload option forces you to replay hard battles until you either get it "right" or accept the death of a companion or two as a price you paid for the victory. I fought many memorable battles, and usually they are the ones I had to fight quite a few times. KOTOR battles weren't memorable, and I had zero concern for the fate of my party members for obvious reasons. Now, I'm not saying that DA will have an exactly the same combat system, but from your responses (the wound system) I didn't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about combat. Care to elaborate a bit?

I can't elaborate much. As I said, however, party members don't just spring back up at full health if they went down in combat. You can either accept the consequences and move on with the penalties or expend the resources to correct the situation. So long as there is a consequence (and, I agree, there really wasn't one in KotOR) I don't really see it as being very different system. Some grognards may still prefer the seeming-finality of death, sure, and if there was some way to have the world recognize that in a satisfactory way I could even see that as being kind of cool, but seeing as very few people would let such a thing pass without a reload anyway and the consequences on the world are too severe (if maintaining a logical setting is important to you, I suppose) I'd rather find something in-between.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Based on what?

It's just a hunch but Bioware track record speaks for itself.
After nwn,
kotor
ja
me

See where I'm getting at? Bioware wants to make money and we all know where the money people think it is, and I am not going to blame them if they decided to go ahead and do console/pc. Gaider is not even sure whether it will stay as pc-only title. At least, he seems to be honest enough to admit the murky future.

Who can be sure? However, Bio had no problems making console-exclusive games like Jade Empire and Mass Effect plus the unannounced projects. DA is a solid PC title, and they have no reasons to change that. After all the BG and NWN games did extremely well, and I doubt that Bio missed this fact.

 

[Vault Dweller]

After all, is it any more realistic to not take someone along at all that might be beneficial just because your party can only be so big?

That's where that infamous choices & consequences thing kicks in. Is it any more realistic though that a lot of people are willing to drop everything and travel with you, patiently waiting for you at the base camp, despite the fact that you rarely/never use their services?

Not to mention that if we're going to throw some plot-critical party members at you, without forcing them into your actual party, then there has to be some method to make them "with you" without having them in your face all the time.

Purely out of curiosity, would the plot make no sense at all without the timely help of some plot-critical NPCs? Wouldn't it be cool to replay the game with different NPCs and get a different perspective on the events from them? Your answer doesn't have to be about DA, but about story-driven games in general.

I mean, a story can also be done without party members like that, as well, but if you're going to do it (and there are good benefits for doing so), it should be as inobtrusive as you can make it.

I think that a base "prisoners" camp is kinda obtrusive, but maybe that's just me.

 

[Volourn]

"You're gay."

Your sister disagrees with your assessment.

 

[elander_]

"You're gay."
Your sister disagrees with your assessment.

She was the one who did you with a dildo. buah buah buah buah buah

I mean, a story can also be done without party members like that, as well, but if you're going to do it (and there are good benefits for doing so), it should be as inobtrusive as you can make it.

I think that a base "prisoners" camp is kinda obtrusive, but maybe that's just me.

Dgaider is being owned completely here.

It looks like "be as inobtrusive as you can make it" is the same as being completely irrelevant. Just read tha pretty story is all that maters.

 

[Sarvis]

That's where that infamous choices & consequences thing kicks in. Is it any more realistic though that a lot of people are willing to drop everything and travel with you, patiently waiting for you at the base camp, despite the fact that you rarely/never use their services?

Not really, especially if there is some motiviation for them to stay there. Perhaps they believe in your cause strongly enough, or you're paying them for their services.

To steal/modify an idea from a console RPG (Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter, or heck Final Fantasy Tactics: Advance) you could perhaps send unused party members on their own missions and such. Perhaps you find information about Artifact X in Remote Mountains Y, and send a team of your groupies after it so you can concentrate on the important stuff.


Not saying that DA will do that, just saying that it would be interesting.