Game News Dragon Age semi-annual update

[Sarvis]

The inventory system is a small, isolated game system that can be changed independently from pretty much every other aspect of the game.

Nothing is independant. If it takes 100 man hours to design the inventory system, that's 100 man hours that didn't go into some other aspect of the project.

The same certainly can't be said for adding skills or party members (unless you mean fixing the GUI for more party members - that notion still has me in shock).

But if the inventory system is going to be meant as a way of introducing choice (ie. do I take the sword vs. undead or the sword vs. orcs) then it's tied in with level design too.

Your notion that it will "drag the game down" is exactly the reason that more time needs to be put into getting it right. There's no universal law stating that ease of use and interesting management are impossible to combine.

No matter how you do it, it will be tedious or it will be thoughtless. In a typical console RPG the "inventory system" is just a list of every item you've collected and you only interact with it when you want to use/equip an item. Putting it at the level we are discussing, however, means you have to manage all those items to keep the inventory organized. It's like saying a well designed office filing cabinet makes filing fun and exciting...

It's only a good guess considering that all these rpg feature crapping hapens in a similar way in many different crpgs. It's not realy hard to guess that game designers are allowed little marging to do anything original.

Not what I meant. You were saying that inventory management isgood, because it is an RPG feature and other RPG features like parties and are good. Just because some features in an RPG are fun, doesn't mean they all are.

Investing in a good game inventory would be making one that doesn't drag the game down to the player. Having an rpg without an inventory system however would be nonsense or at least they would have to come up with some very good and original way to compensate for that.

Really? Nonsense? So if a game had the most roleplaying options ever, but no equipment/inventory it would be crap?

Bullshit. The Codex would love it, and probably not even miss the inventory. Hell, does DeusEx, an FPS elevated to the RPG level by the Codex, suffer from it's lack of an inventory system? (I just know some smartass is going to comment that you carry around guns so that's an inventory system, so fine... it has an inventory system, but it's exactly the kind of system that Jed was arguing against when this discussion started.)

Even the paht lwet is important. Greed is a big human driving force.

Of course it is! I never said it wasn't in any way. That doesn't mean I want to sort my phat loot every couple treasure chests.

 

[Sarvis]

I think the whole thing should be collapsed into the character development system, equipment can cost points the same way skills do.

Some PnP systems do exactly that, and are quite fun. Silver Age Sentinels and BESM for instance. You focus a bit more on the character than the loot, and objects become part of the character.

Not sure it would work in a video game though, item collection makes up for a lot of the loss of not having a human DM.

 

[galsiah]

Hell, does DeusEx, an FPS elevated to the RPG level by the Codex, suffer from it's lack of an inventory system?

About as much as from its lack of a skill system.

(I just know some smartass is going to comment that you carry around guns so that's an inventory system, so fine... it has an inventory system, but it's exactly the kind of system that Jed was arguing against when this discussion started.)

What next? No choice necessary with equipment? A giant shared inventory with no weight or slot restrictions, shared by all characters with every item available at all times?

"No choice necessary with equipment?" not true.
"A giant shared inventory" doesn't apply.
"no weight or slot restrictions" one out of two.
"shared by all characters" doesn't apply.
"every item available at all times?" true of all the items you had with you.

In any case Deus Ex's system still managed to get a little annoying without adding much to the game. I'd say it suffered from the lack of a better one.

 

[Sarvis]

You're kidding right?

"No choice necessary with equipment?" not true.

Wrong. You have all your equipment with you at all times, whatever you need is available with a press of a button. The necessary choice Jed was talking about was having to decide whether or not to bring the Greatsword of Giantslaying with you, or leave it behind because it takes up too much space.

I knew some dumbass would find some stupid ass nitpick about the "inventory system" of DeusEx. Fucking tards.

 

[galsiah]

On the game I played it was totally impossible to fit anything close to every gun into the inventory. Clearly you must have played a different version where inventory space was infinite since you couldn't possibly just be totally wrong.


EDIT: if you mean to refer to Deus Ex IW, then you should know that it's customary to refer to a game with its own name, rather than the name of the previous game in the series.

 

[elander_]

snip

Every adventurer has a backpack to carry items. Even if its something as simple as Lara Croft inventory, but i consider at least encumbrance a necessary stat for an rpg inventory. You have to have an encunbrance stat which depends on the character strength and possible perks to make an rpg inventory. Then it's up for the guy who does the quests to decide if he wants to create a greedy quest that tags players with low encumbrance in an interesting way. We can't realy say that encunbrance won't be used as an important factor in rp quests or strenght or any other stat because this depends on the imagination of the quest writer.

Some people like to collect lots of junk from the world and a good inv system should be easy to use. This isn't that hard. Just add some filters and make the inv window big enough with a stacking option for repeated items. This should be good enough. Another good trick is to mark quest items in a different color for people who don't care for loot. If the player is force to collect and sell lots of loot then this is certainly bad design.

 

[Sarvis]

Oops. It's been a while.

So I guess maybe that's why it's got all that roleplaying.

 

[galsiah]

Sure - personally I wouldn't say there's that much roleplaying in the first game either. I certainly wouldn't call it an RPG - just an interesting FPS.

I don't think the inventory in the first one was that great, but I do think they'd have done better to work on improving it, rather than go over to the slots of DEIW. It's clearly a case of catering for consoles' lack of mouse support.

I agree that if you're emphasizing action, or character interaction, inventory isn't that important. Most RPGs put some emphasis on strategy/tactics/planning though - in particular where combat is concerned. A good inventory system can help there. [it can also be very annoying, of course - which is why you need to spend time to get it right].

 

[Jed]

Nah, just having fun with Jed's vehemence for such a small aspect of a game.

Or just slamming home the fact that you couldn't understand the point being made.

I'm really sorry that I got your goat so badly that you have to keep acting out like this. It's kind of pathetic and just makes me sad for you. Maybe it's time to let it go, Sarvie ...

 

[roguefrog]

On Deus Ex, here's some of the stuff that makes it similar to some RPGs:

-Multiple ways to solve something (kill, sneak, talk, kill by talking IE killwords!)
-Open-ended levels (Locked Doors! Code Locked Doors! Destructable wooden doors! And of course elaborate ventilation systems!)
-CRATES!!!

Unfortunately the game is completely linear until the ending where you choose from three different endings, not unlike VtM: Bloodlines.

 

[Crichton]

Most RPGs put some emphasis on strategy/tactics/planning though - in particular where combat is concerned. A good inventory system can help there. [it can also be very annoying, of course - which is why you need to spend time to get it right].

I'm sure others feel this way, but the whole idea mystifies me. Many wargames have movement rates effected by gear that's actually carried into combat, but here we're talking about restricting how much loot characters can carry throughout a dungeon. The only strategic choices are which pieces of loot provide the most bang for their slots/weight (hint unset stones good, rusty broadsword bad). This shouldn't have any effect on combat because people are going to drop packs once a fight starts, just like real life. So all we're actually balancing is tedium; too much loot = frustratingly slow walking speed.

 

[Sarvis]

Nah, just having fun with Jed's vehemence for such a small aspect of a game.

Or just slamming home the fact that you couldn't understand the point being made.

I'm really sorry that I got your goat so badly that you have to keep acting out like this. It's kind of pathetic and just makes me sad for you. Maybe it's time to let it go, Sarvie ...

Oh I know! Instead of communicating a valid point, try insulting me some more!

You didn't HAVE a point Jed. You picked the least important possible aspect of a game, and made a big deal about how it was necessary. Yeah, I get that you guys like choices. Drooling over inventory management is still fucking retarded, because it will never offer you any meaningful choice.

Hell you'd get more meaningful choice if you eliminated inventory alltogether made it so a character could only have one weapon at a time. No carrying extras at all, so if you find a weapon in a chest and decide you don't want it... it's gone forever.

Even then it wouldn't add shit to roleplaying. But at least it wouldn't involve the tedium of sorting potions.

 

[Jed]

5. To clarify the "inventory management" point: the comment was made in the context of BioWare having never provided real choice or consequence in the first place, and with KotOR (and likely DA) they have stripped out even minor choice and consequence, i.e., inventory and party. Sarvis thinks having access to a magical Adventurers Wal-Mart at all times is somehow TEH ROELPLAYING! I think limitations are more appropriate in a game that's supposed to be an RPG. If you can be everything, have everyone in your party, have every item, never make a mistake or have to deal with an adverse consequence, it's called munchkinism.

What do you not understand here? I can make shorter sentences and use simpler words if you require it.

 

[Sarvis]

Maybe I've having trouble with "TEH ROELPLAYING."

Or maybe you're just too busy trying to find land an insult on me to realize that nothing in that paragraph disagrees with the points I've made, which are simply that inventory management doesn't add much to a game and that you wouldn't care about it at all if the more important aspects were there.

Fuck, I think we've had this argument before... because I remember typing almost that exact sentence months ago...

In any case, why are you sweating the minor choices and "consequences?" And why no comment on the one weapon only scheme I proposed, wouldn't that provide even more important choices and consequences than an inventory system?

 

[Human Shield]

You could run it like a Narrativist game where you can only die when you put your life at stake, which is how stories work. So if you are serious enough about getting the job done you will stake your life on it.

 

[kris]

The inventory system is a small, isolated game system that can be changed independently from pretty much every other aspect of the game.

Nothing is independant. If it takes 100 man hours to design the inventory system, that's 100 man hours that didn't go into some other aspect of the project.

Either they can take some of those 50000 hours that goes into graphics or they could solve it easily by just having a ecumbrance penalty. No RPG game will at any rate be without a inventory system at all, that is unheard of. A shitty inventory system is still a inventory system. So I have to believe then that those 100 hours you pulled out your ass is actually 100 hours needed to put a limitation on it. Hardly believeable.

The same certainly can't be said for adding skills or party members (unless you mean fixing the GUI for more party members - that notion still has me in shock).

But if the inventory system is going to be meant as a way of introducing choice (ie. do I take the sword vs. undead or the sword vs. orcs) then it's tied in with level design too.

If you are going to have any form of challenge you do have varied enemies that sometimes actually make you think on how to defeat them. Maybe even forcing you to retreat and come back. The inventory system as per see is not something they need to think about when making the level design, not anymore than they already should have been thinking about in level design.

Your notion that it will "drag the game down" is exactly the reason that more time needs to be put into getting it right. There's no universal law stating that ease of use and interesting management are impossible to combine.

No matter how you do it, it will be tedious or it will be thoughtless. In a typical console RPG the "inventory system" is just a list of every item you've collected and you only interact with it when you want to use/equip an item. Putting it at the level we are discussing, however, means you have to manage all those items to keep the inventory organized. It's like saying a well designed office filing cabinet makes filing fun and exciting...

I played most RPGs ever made and only once did this feel tedious and that was the mentioned Arcanum. In that case it was mostly tied together with me stupidly wanting to keep ingredients I for some reason found important. It should be noted though if I KEPT all ingredients I could get it is possible I would get an even more bloated inventory. "Thoughtless" you say? I think you need to elaborate on that. filling up a cabinet? Only if you have a humungous inventory, like a truck in tow, in a normal backpack you seldom have to do more than sell a couple of things, move staff of lightning to another party member or chose not to pick up those five platemails lying around. Now a limitless system can be more liked with a garbage bin, there is a lot of shit in there. still, to keep control of this we have the tedious metagame called "sellling stuff". thats your choice, what do you need least and can sell as to be able to navigate the inventory?

Really? Nonsense? So if a game had the most roleplaying options ever, but no equipment/inventory it would be crap?

OMG

Bullshit. The Codex would love it, and probably not even miss the inventory.

Seeing any game thread on this forum I can safely say that at least one person would lament it. But your incredibly flawed example about a "super game", but with no inventory proves absolutely no point whatsoever. Unless your point is that the inventory is not the most important feature, no shit, I doubt anyone ever said that in the history of mankind.

Hell, does DeusEx, an FPS elevated to the RPG level by the Codex, suffer from it's lack of an inventory system?

"FPS". Besides I don't see the codex covering it, what some few say about it doesn't matter.

Even the paht lwet is important. Greed is a big human driving force.

Of course it is! I never said it wasn't in any way. That doesn't mean I want to sort my phat loot every couple treasure chests.

Exactly you just want to easily tow home all you get, no wonder you don't want any limitations. for them to not have a broken economy they need to take into account Sarvis towing back every item he finds, including 50 plate armors and selling to nice merchants happily buying them all. Are you lurking around the blizzard forums demanding a limitless inventory space in Diablo, crying that you can't keep all swords of suckiness so you can sell them.

 

[elander_]

Hell you'd get more meaningful choice if you eliminated inventory alltogether made it so a character could only have one weapon at a time. No carrying extras at all, so if you find a weapon in a chest and decide you don't want it... it's gone forever.

Every good rpg system i know implies the use of an inventory and an encumbrance stat. Do you know any good char system that was better by not having one?

We can remove a single attribute or derived stat or skill and still have a great rpg. But that is completely stupid because these features usefulness depend on how they are used and if there are quests that use these features. Theres realy not much of a difference between encumbrance or perception or charisma if the rpg is balanced in terms of role-playing choices.

Hell can you even play a game called a stateless rpg which is based only on having different choices which the player choose in a concistent maner that adapts to his view of his character. However these games are not very successful and people often prefer to have stats to track the player choices and force him to go by the consequences of his actions unless the game has at least the capability of tracking reputation. Reputation is more important than body/mind/magic stats and their derived attributes only because you can make an rpg that relies only on that.

But you see for yourself (i hope) that not even this they respect in the modern rpgs they do these days. See the Oblivion stupidity of being master of everything and how crime is handdled. The player has paid for the game so he must be able to do all quests with a single character. LOL

 

[Shoelip]

As facinating as it is to watch a bunch of people verbally abuse each other under the guise of an arguement, it's starting to get old. Try something new! :D

 

[Sarvis]

filling up a cabinet?

Filing cabinet, not filling up a cabinet:

Seeing any game thread on this forum I can safely say that at least one person would lament it.

A guess. Jed wouldn't miss it, he'd be too busy "roleplaying" some narcissistic incestuous dwarf.

Unless your point is that the inventory is not the most important feature, no shit, I doubt anyone ever said that in the history of mankind.

No, my point is that it's probably the LEAST important feature. In fact, at worst it will DETRACT from the game experience.

"FPS". Besides I don't see the codex covering it, what some few say about it doesn't matter.

Try again: http://www.rpgcodex.com/gamedetails.php?id=191

Exactly you just want to easily tow home all you get, no wonder you don't want any limitations. for them to not have a broken economy they need to take into account Sarvis towing back every item he finds, including 50 plate armors and selling to nice merchants happily buying them all. Are you lurking around the blizzard forums demanding a limitless inventory space in Diablo, crying that you can't keep all swords of suckiness so you can sell them.

Oh yeah, because it was so much better to have to town portal back 4 timesa level just to sell unnecessary crap.

 

[Jed]

Sarvis seems to have some anger management issues.

Fuck, man, I feel sorry for you. Time to let it go already ...

 

[Volourn]

"very good rpg system i know implies the use of an inventory and an encumbrance stat."

INVENTORY DOES NOT = ROLE-PLAYING

And, Jed look in the mirror. I have reason to believe that Sravis has raped your sister. And, who knows what BIO did to your family because you seem to be rather 'angry' with them. More than any sane person would be over a game.

R00fles!

 

[Jed]

Volourn, you're not qualified to speak of sanity.

 

[Volourn]

No, you.

 

[Ladonna]

I agree that there should be limits in inventory space. As for 'teleporting' That is usually a cure all for bad design.

Dungeon master didn't need teleporting. Instead they made a central staircase that could eventually be unlocked, allowing you access to the food and water on the upper levels. Of course you had to work hard to get that far. I suppose that would be bad for todays kids.

 

[elander_]

We can try but dumbfucks never learn.


"I agree that there should be limits in inventory space."

That should be pretty obvious for almost everyone.

"Dungeon master didn't need teleporting. Instead they made a central staircase that could eventually be unlocked, allowing you access to the food and water on the upper levels. Of course you had to work hard to get that far. I suppose that would be bad for todays kids."

Dungeon Master was a very small game compared with modern games. Even the Ultimas used some sort of teleportation. The subtle point is making it so that it doesn't conflict with other game features.