Divinity: Original Sin Pre-Release Thread

[Horus]

Why is in this computer rpg forum?
I always thought divinity series was hack & slash games like diablo.
Should i try it or are they changing their genre to more traditional rpgs?

 

[MicoSelva]

Why is in this computer rpg forum?
I always thought divinity series was hack & slash games like diablo.
Should i try it or are they changing their genre to more traditional rpgs?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

snipe

Yeah, but what people "should" do to better themselves is not our problem, we just want people to use the editor to make stuff. An editor should put ease of use as one of its top priorities, or it'll be largely ignored. One reason the Bethesda games have such a large modding community is that even an inbred monkey can use their tools. Even sea, who loved the editor, is discouraged by the prospect of learning another 500 commands.

 

[Xenich]

Explain how it could be simpler within the context of your evaluation.

Looking at their scripting code, it seems pretty (excuse the bluntness) stupidly easy to understand. Don't get me wrong, I understand the desire for standardizations between various systems, but... after you have transitioned a few languages, learning others becomes well... like reading the TV guide. /shrug

It's easy alright. Just that most games have moved on to doing visual flow charts and stuff like that, allowing you to more quickly form relationships and cause and effect chains, as well as just being a bit easier to understand for those who don't have a programming background. I guess Larian is a small enough team that spending time making a visual scripting system would be a waste of time, but then, they also showed something along those lines in that same video, so I dunno why they aren't just using that for most things, especially such a dead simple quest.

I understand, but IDE base "visual" systems take a lot of effort and time (seriously look how long it has taken professional IDE's to develop). I understand if that is a desire, but seriously... are they making an engine or are they making a game? There comes a point where you consider your focus. I am not saying that they should not improve and strive for better systems in that area, but there has to be certain level of dedication to those who would develop. The more "simplistic" they make it, the less complicated its options become (if we are talking practically). It is a give and take. There is a reason why Cisco still runs full command line systems for its IOS's. While simplifying and "visualizing" is beneficial , there comes a point where you have to realize that you can not teach a dog to sit at a chair and type something meaningful. It isn't an insult to people, but there is a certain level of "technical" understanding that is required to achieve the results of such systems. Those who aren't willing to learn, aren't worth wasting the time. It is like chasing the "casual gamer" garbage that the publishers seek. All you can do is try to make things as reasonable as you can and let those interested take on from there.

From what I have seen of this editor, those who have "problems" should stick to flipping burgers.

 

[Jaesun]

Why is in this computer rpg forum?

It is a PC exclusive cRPG game (Linux and Mac versions after the PC release)

I always thought divinity series was hack & slash games like diablo.

The publishers asked that Divine Divinity be a real time hack and slash Diablo like clone. Sven wanted to go back to what he always wanted to make: an Ultima VII like game with turn based combat.

Should i try it or are they changing their genre to more traditional rpgs?

See answer above.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Hack and Slash? All Divinity games had more complex mechanics, story and dialogues than Diablo. And this beauty will have TB combat to boot. I wish I could cancel jewgold I gave to this RTWP game with fag elves. But who knew the Age of was upon us?

 

[sea]

I understand, but IDE base "visual" systems take a lot of effort and time (seriously look how long it has taken professional IDE's to develop). I understand if that is a desire, but seriously... are they making an engine or are they making a game? There comes a point where you consider your focus. I am not saying that they should not improve and strive for better systems in that area, but there has to be certain level of dedication to those who would develop. The more "simplistic" they make it, the less complicated its options become (if we are talking practically). It is a give and take. There is a reason why Cisco still runs full command line systems for its IOS's. While simplifying and "visualizing" is beneficial , there comes a point where you have to realize that you can not teach a dog to sit at a chair and type something meaningful. It isn't an insult to people, but there is a certain level of "technical" understanding that is required to achieve the results of such systems. Those who aren't willing to learn, aren't worth wasting the time. It is like chasing the "casual gamer" garbage that the publishers seek. All you can do is try to make things as reasonable as you can and let those interested take on from there.

From what I have seen of this editor, those who have "problems" should stick to flipping burgers.

Haha, it's not like I think it's difficult, I made a 10-20 hour mod scripted in C syntax after all. It's just a bit curious that they would have what looks like a flow graph scripting system for their story and then not use it for the quest scripting itself. That, and almost every other game engine out there seems to be doing it that way now.

And of course, it's not like you have to remove actual scripting if you have flow graphs - Unreal has Kismet and all that but you can just as easily use UnrealScript if you need to do anything more complex. But for level and game designers who are 98% of the time going to be doing stuff like "enemies turn hostile when player enters trigger" and "door opens when player presses button", yeah, having flow graphs or at least a lot of templates really helps speed things up.

 

[Horus]

Hack and Slash? All Divinity games had more complex mechanics, story and dialogues than Diablo. And this beauty will have TB combat to boot. I wish I could cancel jewgold I gave to this RTWP game with fag elves. But who knew the Age of was upon us?

Thanks,it seems i had a wrong impression about this series.
I will try it when i have a time.

 

[Xenich]

snipe

Yeah, but what people "should" do to better themselves is not our problem, we just want people to use the editor to make stuff. An editor should put ease of use as one of its top priorities, or it'll be largely ignored. One reason the Bethesda games have such a large modding community is that even an inbred monkey can use their tools. Even sea, who loved the editor, is discouraged by the prospect of learning another 500 commands.

I remember back in the days of 3D realms and making maps for Duke Nukem 3d. The editor was a pain in the ass, not very intuitive, etc... Yet.. there were millions of maps for the game. Point is, those who are interested will achieve it, those who are not... well... there is an issue of attending to people who are honestly... TOO FUCKING RETARDED to be working with such. The amount of time and effort it would take to "FIX STUPID" is not practical or reasonable.

Now don't get me wrong, standardization is a great thing. Many companies use LUA and adjust to be compatible to common commands of such, that I can understand, but at the end of the day... this is the curse of the issue. Sometimes, such ventures are not reasonable or practical to a developing agency. IT could be because the standard is... "fucking stupid" or it could be because the "standard" does not consider the needs of the implementation that the new development needs.

Now I can fully sympathize with the "casual player audience" complaining about how they can't roll their face over the keyboard to achieve their victory, but in the development community? Boo Fucking Hoo! Seriously, I have learned so many languages over the years that to throw a tantrum over having to "READ UP" on some new ones? Well... it makes me shake my head. It is whiny, and lazy. If you think that a very simple system as was displayed is going to cause people to object and refuse to create content, then... well... we are done. Games are done. The Publishers are right and people are too fucking stupid to want to play games with any intelligence, they want RFOKB content with effects and bloom, and... don't forget lots of sex and more bloom!

 

[MicoSelva]

Ultima VII like game with turn based combat.

This statement alone is enough to make me hyped about the game.

Anyway, I'm going to sleep now. When I wake in the morning I want to see that 200K mark passed and the second update uploaded. Goodnight.

 

[Xenich]

I understand, but IDE base "visual" systems take a lot of effort and time (seriously look how long it has taken professional IDE's to develop). I understand if that is a desire, but seriously... are they making an engine or are they making a game? There comes a point where you consider your focus. I am not saying that they should not improve and strive for better systems in that area, but there has to be certain level of dedication to those who would develop. The more "simplistic" they make it, the less complicated its options become (if we are talking practically). It is a give and take. There is a reason why Cisco still runs full command line systems for its IOS's. While simplifying and "visualizing" is beneficial , there comes a point where you have to realize that you can not teach a dog to sit at a chair and type something meaningful. It isn't an insult to people, but there is a certain level of "technical" understanding that is required to achieve the results of such systems. Those who aren't willing to learn, aren't worth wasting the time. It is like chasing the "casual gamer" garbage that the publishers seek. All you can do is try to make things as reasonable as you can and let those interested take on from there.

From what I have seen of this editor, those who have "problems" should stick to flipping burgers.

Haha, it's not like I think it's difficult, I made a 10-20 hour mod scripted in C syntax after all. It's just a bit curious that they would have what looks like a flow graph scripting system for their story and then not use it for the quest scripting itself. That, and almost every other game engine out there seems to be doing it that way now.

And of course, it's not like you have to remove actual scripting if you have flow graphs - Unreal has Kismet and all that but you can just as easily use UnrealScript if you need to do anything more complex. But for level and game designers who are 98% of the time going to be doing stuff like "enemies turn hostile when player enters trigger" and "door opens when player presses button", yeah, having flow graphs or at least a lot of templates really helps speed things up.

Valid points, I guess I am just a bit over defensive to the issue.

Learning new things never bothered me, so when I see comments like "have to learn 500 more commands" I guess I got a little touchy.

I think you are right, better implementation of a system as such could be quite beneficial. I also have to consider the "right brain" side of the argument. The more easily they are able to attend to the functionality of such, the more likely to see increased content to that level of position.

I have known and worked with types who are technical idiots, but when you bridge that gap to allow them to achieve their creative talents... good things happen.

Hmm, disregard then my rants, I think continued critical evaluation of their editor system will only produce positive results.

 

[Jaesun]

Creator Larian Studios LLC 29 minutes ago
Hi again guys
At 200K we'll release the new video - I think it'll help a bit to alleviate your multiplayer fears. And Michal Michi Gen is right: this RPG was made to set right a great wrong - it is possible to have a real RPG and play it together with someone else, just like you can with a pen & paper RPG. I can see that this is going to be an uphill struggle, but we're not going to give up - we're big RPG lovers ourselves & we know that this feels right. On top of that, the fact that we designed it like this ensures that you have better party interactions than you'd ordinarily have, just because we were forced to put real choice and consequence in every single dialog between the party members, otherwise the gameplay magic of discussion wouldn't be there.

 

[Jestai]

If I want to max diplomacy skills (Bluff and Intimidation or whatever they are), will I be able to bully the other player in a way that he won't ever have a say in the decisions ? I think the balance between skills and RNG is very important, because I'm sure as hell people are gonna do it and I don't think it's gonna be so fun after a while when the more balanced slobs stuck with them will begin to feel like glorified henchmen.

Hey, Larian.
Can You tell me how the balance between the two protagonists will be handled in coop dialogues? For example, if one character wll have significantly higher dialogue skills, ill that character always win such conflicts?

@Mico: No, because the game way to win a dialogue is context sensitive. E.g. there are situations in which charming is better than intimidating or reasoning. You don't charm about which exit to take when you're being hunted by raving ghouls for instance. And charm is determined by persuasion+constitution, reason by intelligence+persuasion and intimidate by strength+persuasion.

Three diaogue skills

Still not convinced.
I mean, what's the point to have a built-in decision system if you know who's gonna win before the dialog ? "Eh, looks like a Bluff situation, well, fuck that, I'm out of luck..."
Either you can chose your approach and the dev's point of view is the answer or gives bonus (which can be very well done or very stupid) + highest stat wins or the appropriate approach is built-in and, well, highest stat wins even more.

In my point of view, even a socially inept Biodrone who fails at romancing in Mass Effect should have a very small chance to win a Charm check against George Clooney with a lucky natural 20. Maybe it's a little bit stupid (then again, 5% is not a lot, right ?), but it's the only way to keep things interesting and for this system to achieve its goal. Else it's just gonna be "ok, bluff you win, intimidation and reasoning I win" => what's the point to have a discussion then?

I just want to hear "YES, WE'RE GONNA HAVE SKILLCHECKS WHO MAKE (possibly huge) UPSETS POSSIBLE" to be happy. Everyone should have a possibility to win every check in order for these discussions to not be a tedious part that people are gonna rush not giving a single fuck...


To the other guy, deciding the way to go over VOIP isn't the way this game should be played imo. You have a decision to make, you should be able to handle it the way you want inside the game because THEY MADE A FUCKING SYSTEM FOR THAT. You have an opinion and should be able to roleplay it, even if this opinion is "let's find a way that suits us both".

 

[Zed]

The editor video was nice but not convincing. I want to know how to set up the start of the game for a module with different party structures, how the code looks for things like adding/removing NPCs and perhaps more advanced stuff. How to import stuff, to what extent triggers can be used, area transitions, if you can modify the game's original skills and character system. And so on.
It will also need tutorials covering everything.
I don't trust this game to grow a NWN1-like mod community so I don't want to wait for community solutions.
The editor is the only thing I care about. The co-op/2 char campaign does not appeal to me in the slightest.

 

[yaster]

To the other guy, deciding the way to go over VOIP isn't the way this game should be played imo. You have a decision to make, you should be able to handle it the way you want inside the game because THEY MADE A FUCKING SYSTEM FOR THAT. You have an opinion and should be able to roleplay it, even if this opinion is "let's find a way that suits us both".

Why not? It's just a video game. The system is abstraction, it doesn't include the part about one character convincing another, it's just the last resort.

And even you want to be a tight ass and don't want to act out of the game you still need to understand that there is more interaction between characters than just speech. If you win every argument with the other character and don't allow him to have a say it should be understandable that he is mad about you and doesn't really like the idea of giving you that awesome sword that he found but can't use. Or will not resurrect you if die. Or will like every other woman just throw boxes at you for whole day.

 

[Gragt]

Still not convinced.
I mean, what's the point to have a built-in decision system if you know who's gonna win before the dialog ? "Eh, looks like a Bluff situation, well, fuck that, I'm out of luck..."
Either you can chose your approach and the dev's point of view is the answer or gives bonus (which can be very well done or very stupid) + highest stat wins or the appropriate approach is built-in and, well, highest stat wins even more.

In my point of view, even a socially inept Biodrone who fails at romancing in Mass Effect should have a very small chance to win a Charm check against George Clooney with a lucky natural 20. Maybe it's a little bit stupid (then again, 5% is not a lot, right ?), but it's the only way to keep things interesting and for this system to achieve its goal. Else it's just gonna be "ok, bluff you win, intimidation and reasoning I win" => what's the point to have a discussion then?

I just want to hear "YES, WE'RE GONNA HAVE SKILLCHECKS WHO MAKE (possibly huge) UPSETS POSSIBLE" to be happy. Everyone should have a possibility to win every check in order for these discussions to not be a tedious part that people are gonna rush not giving a single fuck...

There is actually one persuasion skill and you use it as persuasion + strenght (intimidate), persuasion + constitution (charm) or persuasion + intelligence (reasoning). Even if you have a high score in one of the social skill, it won't always trump the others because some choices that will arise will favour some approach to the detriment of others. Also the way it works, the system doesn't really give you clear dump stats. So while a melee fighter type will typically have stronger intimidate and a heavy magic user will do better in reasoning, they will both face situations where they will shine or have penalties, and that's assuming they only invest in those stats but given the system even a meleer will want to invest in intelligence and a magic user may want some points in strenght.

To the other guy, deciding the way to go over VOIP isn't the way this game should be played imo. You have a decision to make, you should be able to handle it the way you want inside the game because THEY MADE A FUCKING SYSTEM FOR THAT. You have an opinion and should be able to roleplay it, even if this opinion is "let's find a way that suits us both".

That's actually one way to do it. You coud very well use the system they made OR also argue about with VOIP, or even the dude playing next to you, and then solve it through the game if you can't reach an agreement as players. That's the beauty of the whole thing.

Also, if both players put a heavy emphasis on diplomacy skills in order to be competitive in the co-op dialogues, they'll be weaker as a team since they could have put those skillpoints into something more useful, at most one "face" character is needed.
I expect most players will ignore the co-op dialogue system and make joint decisions the old-fashioned way over chat etc.

As I wrote, your social skills increase with the stats that you also use for combat. The whole thing is designed so that the various stats interact a lot with each other.

 

[Zeriel]

Personally, I consider the immense trolling potential of the co-op dialogues to be the main selling point of this game. I mean, turn-based combat, Ultima 7 item combination, all of that would make the game really cool on their own, but a game system that not only facilitates fucking with people, but encourages it? The moment I showed that to friends, everyone went into "MUST BUY" mode.

 

[Jaesun]

In single player, how do you move both player units at once? Drag-select, or is there a move all button like in Beyond Divinity? There are two AI mercenaries that can accompany you, one for each player, right? How closely are the mercenaries tied to the character that hired them? Can one player move his character and both of the mercenaries as one group, leaving the other character alone? Can the alone player hit "move all" to move his own mercenary back?

Can you answer this Gragt? Or did you only play CO-OP mode?

 

[Gragt]

Swen and I each hired a henchman and each would follow the character who hired him by default (he had Alfred and I got Frank). By clicking on the portrait, it's possible to take control of the other character, for instance to move him, access his inventory or use his skills. In co-op you can only access the character you hired or summoned yourself, so while I could do whatever I wanted with Frank, I had no control at all on Alfred. The two main characters behave the same way in single player, i.e., you assume direct control* of one like the boy then the girl will follow you. I didn't see an option to make a character wait somewhere while you move another but it might already exist or be added later.

Spoiler

*

 

[felipepepe]

Seeing that they can die and be ressurected, I guess you can just start the game, kill the second characters and solo your way through the game....

 

[Gragt]

Seeing that they can die and be ressurected, I guess you can just start the game, kill the second characters and solo your way through the game....

That I do not know. I know that the story is heavily centered on the two characters so it is unknown yet if you can get rid of one character or if you need both to progress. That said the game is designed as a party game and the classless system means that you can develop each character exactly the same or completely different, meaning that they can cover each other's weaknesses, and from what I've seen you'll need it. When it comes to combat, think of The Temple of Elemental Evil — when I said the combat in D:OS strongly reminded me of TOEE, Swen said it was an actual source of inspiration for that part of the game.

 

[Jaesun]

ToEE was an inspiration for this?

 

[Zeriel]

Swen's influences (esp. in that interview that was posted somewhere, where he said, "No, you're wrong. Dumb, dumb, dumb! Ultima 7, Ultima 7, Ultima 7! Not SKYRIM! BAD GAME JOURNALIST!") honestly sound more than most people here. Between this and Jake Solomon actually making a true-to-original X-COM prototype before it got released, kind of makes you wonder how good gaming could be if it had remained small and free of the influence of...

 

[Jaesun]

The sheer fact Sven said (in 2010 before the turn based Kickstarter craze) Fuck it! I want to make a good old classic game like the old Ultima VII with object interaction and with a CO-OP option as well as an editor speak volumes of his (and Larian's) passion for a good old cRPG. Thankfully he knew the horrible Cluster Fuck Combat System™ in Ultima VII was shit, and improved upon it with proper Turn Based Combat.

Hell even the co-op design in this game is MILES above the shitty "social" elements Gariott is doing with his Pet and House MMO.

 

[Arkeus]

Seeing that they can die and be ressurected, I guess you can just start the game, kill the second characters and solo your way through the game....

I am pretty sure it was said somewhere that it was 'possible' to solo the game, but it was designed for partying and as such solo'ing it would be very, very hard.