Dishonored by Arkane

[hoverdog]

well, if you think that being a personal bodyguard with obvious emotional attachment (as the relationship with the child shows) that sees the murder of his ward and is framed into it, and promptly thrown into prison to be executed IS NOT enough a motivation, well then, I can't help you.

There is a great difference between telling the player "you have a relationship to this person" and actually making the player care about that relationship. You can't just say "you're supposed to care about this!", you have to make me care. This is pretty basic stuff.

If you don't understand that simple concept then it is you who is beyond help. I don't know why you're putting down your heels in resistance on this point. There is almost 0 characterization on the empress, 0 on you. How is the fact that I state this very simple point so controversial?

Funny way to completely avoid half of my point. The relationship with empress is hardly shown, I agree (but not with the daughter - at least I felt the relationship between the PC and Emily) - but even then, what about

seeing the murder of his ward and being framed into it, and being promptly thrown into prison to be executed

Supposed you don't care a thing about the empress - don't you want to clear your name and take revenge on those stupid motherfuckers that used you?

 

[Grunker]

at least I felt the relationship between the PC and Emily

I'll give you this. I did get some attachment to the daughter, and I suspect this fact put my lack of detachment for everything else into the spotlight.

don't you want to clear your name and take revenge on those stupid motherfuckers that used you?

Well, uhm, no.

Here's the thing: I'm usually a real sucker for these kinds of stories. I completely over-evaluate CoMC because of that. But I just didn't feel anything during Dishonored's intro. You see a quick cutscene of the empress dying, then it says "six months later" and then you knock down guards and get out. There's no sense of suffering, no sense of these guys truly being evil motherfuckers that you should hate, no sense of personal loss. No sense of dishonoring. You don't see or hear about the effects of your tarnished name (at least I haven't see anything of the sort yet, except for scumbag guards). Hell, the only thing I've interacted with of this nature yet is a group of random loyalists who blindly believe you are not to blame.

The villains are of prime fucking importance in a vengeance story, quite obviously, and you have no knowledge of these two dumb bastards save that they want to be sultan and that they like to tell you what they're planning during interrogations.

So you don't feel cast out (you just gain new friends), you don't feel betrayed (you had no attachment to those who betrayed you) and you have little motivation for vengeance except the game telling you: "Look. These guys really betrayed you. And you really care about the empress. And you really liked your job." To use a stupid cliche, they're telling you all this in a very direct, informative manner, and they're showing nothing of it.

Note that I think the world and the universe they created is really fucking rad (like, orgasmically (is that a word?) so), it's really interesting and unique, and it's what's keeps me interested in an otherwise annoying and banal story with boring characters. Besides the supernatural voodoo bullshit which is introduced very hamfisted, the universe is incredible.

The story, however, is not.

 

[Serious_Business]

Yes the story is superficial, but it's pedantic to point out the obvious

If anything I think the attention to detail in how they crafted the setting is much more interesting, so that's what you should focus on if you want to gain some enjoyement out of it. If you want to be critical, surely there are more worthy subjects to approach

I think the main fault with the narrative was avoiding to give the main character a voice and a personality. It certainly gave Thief half its mystery and appeal.

 

[Excidium]

Spoiler

You are also her lover and the father of her daughter. They could have handled it better.

Wait...whaaat?

 

[Jaedar]

Spoiler

You are also her lover and the father of her daughter. They could have handled it better.

Wait...whaaat?

Spoiler

Once you save Emily, she draws a picture of you without the mask. Under it she writes "daddy". The rest is inferred. Although Corvo could just be a father substitute.

 

[Excidium]

Spoiler

Yeah I saw that, but I figured she just saw him as a father since he always took care of her and her mother.

 

[Grunker]

If anything I think the attention to detail in how they crafted the setting is much more interesting

Note that I think the world and the universe they created is really fucking rad

I am. It's the only thing keeping me interested in something else than raw gameplay. But it's a shame the setting is misused with banal supernatural shit and such a boring story.

Yes the story is superficial, but it's pedantic to point out the obvious

It's pedantic to call crap, crap? The Codex has been living a lie!

If I come here saying "so far, this is crap" I expect people to tell me "no, it's not" or "yes it is." What I encountered was a few posts of "no, it's not" and then you say "okay, it's crap, but you are pointing out the obvious."

Weeeeeeeeell....

I think the main fault with the narrative was avoiding to give the main character a voice and a personality. It certainly gave Thief half its mystery and appeal.

I don't think it's the main reason, but it's certainly part of it.

 

[Jaedar]

Spoiler

Yeah I saw that, but I figured she just saw him as a father since he always took care of her and her mother.

This is also a possible explanation.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

after the initial enthusiasm i'm losing interest fast in this game.
i'm not feeling challenged, those very few skills are not needed so hunting runes becomes a waste of time quickly, each and every enemy's pattern is made to let you pass, it's silly that every man in that world feels the urge to stare at a wall half of his life.
a lot of effort has been put in art direction and map building, it shows, it's evident, this is one of the extremely rare games which makes you look up, but i don't find it entertaining.
walk some, two soldiers talking, wait for them to split up, get one, get the other, walk some more, two soldiers talking...

 

[Serious_Business]

Weeeeeeeeell....

Just trying to save you the trouble, but if you like arguing that much that you're willing to make a meta-argument about why you argue, then I won't stop you from slitting your wrist either.

I'll admit that I was saying this offhand comment because I for one like the "story", but I wouldn't go so far as to try to point out its worth by pulling it out point by point because I know it wouldn't endure the scrutinity. Doing this abstract exercice is the surest way to stop enjoying things in life, especially video games. I am a very wise man, listen to me

 

[Grunker]

you're willing to make a meta-argument about why you argue

Let's back up a bit:

it's pedantic to point out the obvious

You're the one telling me there are points I cannot/should not argue. How do I reply to that if not with a meta-argument about why I argue?

Doing this abstract exercice is the surest way to stop enjoying things in life, especially video games

As I said before, I went into this game expecting bad gameplay and a decent story, so my expectations as for the story were neither high nor low. I do understand it, however, if you're finding it enjoyment in it and don't want to spoil that by arguing with some brat on the internet. I didn't ask you to, though.

I am a very wise man, listen to me

Oh, I always listen to your mr. Business. You are like my own personal Law of Jante

 

[sea]

My issue with the story, aside from the cheap "rescue the cute little girl" hook and "here's some magical god creature who gives you powers in a dream" stuff, is that the game has absolutely nothing interesting to say. Dishonored's world is detailed and very fleshed out compared to most games, but there isn't a point to any of it. It can be summed up in a list of a few things: Outsider, Seven Strictures, Rat Plague, Whale Oil. There is almost no ensuing discussion of those things and it certainly never makes you stop to think about what you might be doing. And then it pulls the cheap-ass BioShock bait-and-switch which has absolutely no meaning in a 100% linear game anyway.

A game like Deus Ex actually had something to say in its political, social and philosophical commentary; it was a reflection of a lot of the fears people have about all-controlling government, and the discourse that followed ultimately let you choose what side you came down on in the ending. Everything, from books to newspapers, existed to give weight and meaning to those themes. Dishonored is just a bunch of weird/cool steampunky stuff, but it's very hard to care about when everything is so superficial and the story itself does nothing with the interesting world presented. Why do we hear about all these distant lands, trades, practices, cultures, and so on if none of it is in the game and even really matters much to the story?

 

[Captain Shrek]

My issue with the story, aside from the cheap "rescue the cute little girl" hook and "here's some magical god creature who gives you powers in a dream" stuff, is that the game has absolutely nothing interesting to say. Dishonored's world is detailed and very fleshed out compared to most games, but there isn't a point to any of it. It can be summed up in a list of a few points: Outsider, Seven Strictures, Rat Plague, Whale Oil. A game like Deus Ex actually had something to say in its political, social and philosophical commentary; it was a reflection of a lot of the fears people have about all-controlling government, and the discourse that followed ultimately let you choose what side you came down on in the ending. Everything, from books to newspapers, existed to give weight and meaning to those themes. Dishonored is just a bunch of weird/cool steampunky stuff, but it's very hard to care about when everything is so superficial and the story itself does nothing with the interesting world presented.

A bit fallacious since it reads as if:

A game like Deus Ex actually had something to say in its political, social and philosophical commentary;

part made Deus Ex great.

It was not the message but the presentation. I suspect that a story concerning three stooges written and implemented with the same ingenuity as deus Ex would be equally good.

 

[sea]

part made Deus Ex great.

It was not the message but the presentation. I suspect that a story concerning three stooges written and implemented with the same ingenuity as deus Ex would be equally good.

Not really. Deus Ex wasn't a great story but it was a story with interesting things to say. Dishonored is a decent story, but unlike Deus Ex it has nothing else to fall back on, no real "meat" for you to sink your intellectual teeth into. Not to say that Deus Ex was the most profound game ever made or anything, but it made you think... Dishonored does not, at least in more than simple terms. Even BioShock attempted to say something about objectivism and unrestrained free enterprise, even if it was on a fairly basic level.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

but it made you think... Dishonored does not

it made me think. as soon as the plague and its cure were mentioned i thought "grey death and ambrosia, they're trying to mimic deus ex".

 

[Captain Shrek]

Not really. Deus Ex wasn't a great story but it was a story with interesting things to say. Dishonored is a decent story, but unlike Deus Ex it has nothing else to fall back on, no real "meat" for you to sink your intellectual teeth into. Not to say that Deus Ex was the most profound game ever made or anything, but it made you think... Dishonored does not, at least in more than simple terms. Even BioShock attempted to say something about objectivism and unrestrained free enterprise, even if it was on a fairly basic level.

I never said that you were wrong. I just said that the way you wrote it read like that.

When you say 'interesting things' I assume you are referring to the nanotech and the well written politically charged conversations. All I meant was, that these conversations had ideas that were hardly original or creative by themselves. But the overall way that these played out, the design of the characters who voiced these ideas, the world (as in atmosphere and setting) made them stand out.

That is why Deus Ex is not just another Conspiracy theory story. It is a well presented conspiracy theory story.

 

[SoupNazi]

I was surprised about the lack of depth to the whale oil to be honest. Again something I feel they had fleshed out and ready but it didn't make it into the final product. I expected some moral dilemma about hunting whales for the oil or something, and more in-depth explanation of how they discovered it and found out its use... and yet... nothing.

 

[sea]

When you say 'interesting things' I assume you are referring to the nanotech and the well written politically charged conversations. All I meant was, that these conversations had ideas that were hardly original or creative by themselves. But the overall way that these played out, the design of the characters who voiced these ideas, the world (as in atmosphere and setting) made them stand out.

That is why Deus Ex is not just another Conspiracy theory story. It is a well presented conspiracy theory story.

It's not just presentation, though, it's about the intellectual depths of the themes being explored and the amount of maturity used in discussing them. "Presentation" to me pertains more to style and not quality of content, so it's not really the word I would use... if anything, sometimes Deus Ex had really rough presentation of its themes (random philosophical discussions with badly voice-acted bartenders, anyone?), but that doesn't diminish the depth and interest of those themes.

Also, stay away from the Bethesda forums, kiddies. So much brown-nosing by fanboys it's sickening. "lol we dont need maps in the game because assassins are too cool for maps and your a moron if you want them, go back to baby games like skyrim."

 

[Captain Shrek]

When you say 'interesting things' I assume you are referring to the nanotech and the well written politically charged conversations. All I meant was, that these conversations had ideas that were hardly original or creative by themselves. But the overall way that these played out, the design of the characters who voiced these ideas, the world (as in atmosphere and setting) made them stand out.

That is why Deus Ex is not just another Conspiracy theory story. It is a well presented conspiracy theory story.

It's not just presentation, though, it's about the intellectual depths of the themes being explored and the amount of maturity used in discussing them. "Presentation" to me pertains more to style and not quality of content, so it's not really the word I would use... if anything, sometimes Deus Ex had really rough presentation of its themes (random philosophical discussions with badly voice-acted bartenders, anyone?), but that doesn't diminish the depth and interest of those themes.

Hmm. I do beleive that Deus Ex did have some deep themes (the discussion on liberties and the nature of democracy) and since I was 13 when it came out it did indeed seem terrifically intellectual. But looking back I would rather consider the presentation as its strong point.

 

[sea]

Hmm. I do beleive that Deus Ex did have some deep themes (the discussion on liberties and the nature of democracy) and since I was 13 when it came out it did indeed seem terrifically intellectual. But looking back I would rather consider the presentation as its strong point.

True. But we are looking at videogames here. In fact, most of the stuff in Deus Ex would be pretty profound to see even in most motion pictures, even some of the more "intellectual" ones. Obviously it's not a treatise on political science or anything, and the game mixes in a lot of cheesy B-movie X-Files type stuff in there, but we're talking about a (relatively) mass market entertainment product, and there aren't too many of those, especially in gaming, which get close to what Deus Ex managed.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Hmm. I do beleive that Deus Ex did have some deep themes (the discussion on liberties and the nature of democracy) and since I was 13 when it came out it did indeed seem terrifically intellectual. But looking back I would rather consider the presentation as its strong point.

True. But we are looking at videogames here. In fact, most of the stuff in Deus Ex would be pretty profound to see even in most motion pictures, even some of the more "intellectual" ones. Obviously it's not a treatise on political science or anything, and the game mixes in a lot of cheesy B-movie X-Files type stuff in there, but we're talking about a (relatively) mass market entertainment product, and there aren't too many of those, especially in gaming, which get close to what Deus Ex managed.

This brings me to the point I wanted to address earlier.

What is your view on the writing in Thief?

 

[sea]

Solid. Atmospheric. Good characterisation, good writing for "dialogues", notes etc. Well explored and defined setting without actually going into an excessive amount of detail. Superficial, but works for the game.

Don't get me wrong, Dishonored does not have outright bad writing or anything. For game standards it is pretty good. It's just disappointing given how closely it cribs from Deus Ex in every other way.

 

[toro]

Spoiler

Yeah I saw that, but I figured she just saw him as a father since he always took care of her and her mother.

This is also a possible explanation.

Spoiler

Read the last journal of Havelock and he will say clearly: How is it possible that Corvo is the father of Emily?

 

[Captain Shrek]

Solid. Atmospheric. Good characterisation, good writing for "dialogues", notes etc. Well explored and defined setting without actually going into an excessive amount of detail. Superficial, but works for the game.

Don't get me wrong, Dishonored does not have outright bad writing or anything. For game standards it is pretty good. It's just disappointing given how closely it cribs from Deus Ex in every other way.

I would not call it superficial. In fact to me its secretive lore is its charm. It is like a good detective novel. The clues are all laid about. You simply have to take the initiative to pick them up and turn them into a a uniform whole.

The background quotes from the game, the poems, the dialogues are highly interrelated and provide an insight into the history of the city. But the details are smudged on purpose so that the interested can enjoy the challenge of untangling the knotted thread of the actual narrative.

I am a bit disappointed that this setting was never really followed.

 

[toro]

I would kill for a good Thief game.