Incline Disco Elysium - The Final Cut - a hardboiled cop show isometric RPG

[DJOGamer PT]

I do not like DE and I especially dislike the writing,

Isn't the writing the only redeeming quality in this shit piece?

 

[AwesomeButton]

To add to everything the others have said - listen, this whole argument hinges on saying that Evrart is a personification of communism because he is a union leader, and in this role, he portrays communism in a benevolent light because he is a manipulative weasly controlling fuck but he, uh, gets things done? Wherein one of the big things he gets done by using you is, well, set up a nice redevelopment of a big new apartment block on the lands of the poor forced out through contractual pressure?

Sorry to bash Obsidian yet again, but their "style" (really "cookie cutter approach") which they developed to factions over the years, is leading players to auto-assuming things. Remember the postulate "Every faction should have a spokesperson"? Remember who came up with that shit? But I don't want to get started again.

 

[Harthwain]

IMHO game would be more enjoyable if it stayed more mature without the overpowering humour, if the main plot axis would be interfighting between factions of Wild Pines and union, and your murder case would be just a background to these power struggles, sprinkled with some humour[and your unconventional attire] as a contrast to the bleak reality.

For me the humour is what made the game - and ideologies - enjoyable. I don't think it would work if the game had been very serious.

The least nuanced character is the measurehead, the game doesn't even try to explain what racialism is, they just went full retard spewing most inane bullshit.

I liked Measurehead. He is literally Black Power Supremacist with the French accent. He is juxtaposed with Lorry Driver (the average racist) as an example of actual racial supremacy. It's brilliant and funny at the same time. He also an intelligent musclehead who engages in debate on racial supremacy. Yes, he is a joke, but I wouldn't say it's a bad one. Lorry Driver is way worse representation of racism (and more serious).

It's also slightly too long, as it dragged out and at 2/3 of game i was little impatient to end this. I guess a good point and click adventure game should be at most 20h long, anything more and you have too much filler and lose focus, unless you can devise a plot points that can sustain the story and player interest.

I think 60 hours would have been perfect (I finished the game around 42 or 48 hours). But the ending part was a bit too dry (the island part).

Why this game needs a blackguard for every ideology except centrism for the joke? Because characters are the most important part of storytelling. Fictional historical events have a lot less of an impact than fictional persons.

I don't disagree with characters being the most important part of storytelling, but I am not sure that characters are avatars - so to speak - of ideology concepts. Or, to put it in other words, I doubt they are supposed to be literal embodients of ideologies (they do not seem to fit the categories you ascribe to them). If ideology is a diamond, then I'd say characters are more like facets, and there are many facets in each diamond.

Yes and those people are as usual an absolute joke. But that doesnt change the valid criticism that the political compass was somewhat imbalanced and had a bias towards the left.

My suspiction is the imbalance wasn't caused by developers' intentional political bias. They said in of the interviews that they wanted to not side strictly with one ideology or the other, so they specifically made sure that their work on characters was compartmentalized. If anything I'd claim their writers didn't have good enough experience with right-oriented ideologies (although you did get Rene pretty well) to present them in more nuanced way. Same goes for Ultraliberalism.

 

[Stavrophore]

If they ever make a sequel they should improve character interaction. Right now every person is like a "point of interest" a beacon among the nothingness, among lack of interactive world.When you explore the island, or discover new area, you go to each persona, they info dump you/give you some small side quest, and then you go to next person, they do the same, repeat ad infinitum. They should add more interaction between characters, like one character influence other character, interact in the world, you talk with someone, then some other people won't talk to you, or have some grudge. Just make it less static, feel like a real world with real community, and not just randomly thrown archetypes to show of your ideological message. Characters should also not espouse every available lines they have just at the first meeting, it then leaves them pretty empty. Some characters had new lines as the days progressed, but it was only handful of them, i would like to see more characters included.

Overall i can't understand the hyper and all these >90/100 ratings. Game journos hand these ratings way too easily. Maybe it shows the state of decline, when one good game appears after a hiatus, then everyone just throw 9/10. Or maybe the game LE REDDITOR writing is so relatable to average game journo -30 year old balding funkopop fan with 30k positive karma reddit accounts?

 

[Thac0]

I don't disagree with characters being the most important part of storytelling, but I am not sure that characters are avatars - so to speak - of ideology concepts. Or, to put it in other words, I doubt they are supposed to be literal embodients of ideologies (they do not seem to fit the categories you ascribe to them). If ideology is a diamond, then I'd say characters are more like facets, and there are many facets in each diamond.

I dont disagree with the general idea, however for me there are two extremely important characters for each "guild" or "alignment" in a game. The best possible incarnation of that concept and the worst. Here I called them the paragon and the blackguard. These frame how the game sees the concept, and operating by the principle that everything not confirmed by the game is speculation, show how the ideology or guild acts in this world. Lets say I join the Loremasters in Age of Decadence. The blackguard there is Feng, who immediatly wants me to shiv a rival that is better qualified for selfish reasons (

Spoiler

or the cunt who wants to poison you at the library

). The paragon is probably the guy in the tower in Madaraan. It shows that the Loremasters are a very varied faction that generally strives towards caution, but can do so in egoistic or altruistic ways.

My suspiction is the imbalance wasn't caused by developers' intentional political bias. They said in of the interviews that they wanted to not side strictly with one ideology or the other, so they specifically made sure that their work on characters was compartmentalized. If anything I'd claim their writers didn't have good enough experience with right-oriented ideologies (although you did get Rene pretty well) to present them in more nuanced way. Same goes for Ultraliberalism.

I do agree here, the game has a bias towards Communism/Moralism and it shows. I dont think it is an intended bias, since they tried to make other paths viable and to make communism a negative example aswell. However every piece of fiction you write is always influenced by the writers personal beliefs. The writers didnt know jackshit about either European or American liberal theories, and as such the liberal response is usually pretty shallow and doesnt fit the ideology, not even from the perspective of the raging drunk uneducated Tequila. I do not know what shitty theories the nazis use to justify their bullshit but I assume the fascist options dont do these justice either.

Surprise, we agree completely

 

[Tigranes]

OK, but most importantly

WHAT IDEOLOGY DOES CUNO CARE

 

[Stavrophore]

OK, but most importantly

WHAT IDEOLOGY DOES CUNO CARE

I hadn't tried shooting them for real, or kicking them. Can you actually kill that little brat? It would be pretty awesome, wonder how would the ending dialogue look like xD

 

[Thac0]

OK, but most importantly

WHAT IDEOLOGY DOES CUNO CARE

I hadn't tried shooting them for real, or kicking them. Can you actually kill that little brat? It would be pretty awesome, wonder how would the ending dialogue look like xD

Nah, but you can better his life, get him off speed, get him out of the psychological manipulation by the girl in the back, make him find his calling as an artist and make him a cop.
I liked Cuno, he is a cool little fucker. Cuno can be fucking anything, even a gay painter!

 

[Stavrophore]

OK, but most importantly

WHAT IDEOLOGY DOES CUNO CARE

I hadn't tried shooting them for real, or kicking them. Can you actually kill that little brat? It would be pretty awesome, wonder how would the ending dialogue look like xD

Nah, but you can better his life, get him off speed, get him out of the psychological manipulation by the girl in the back, make him find his calling as an artist and make him a cop.
I liked Cuno, he is a cool little fucker. Cuno can be fucking anything, even a gay painter!

Nah, i've aimed a gun at him, but didn't shot. I thought they would fire me. The fucker didn't talk to me when i hadn't apologized. Couldn't end some quests. These kids were so annoying, i regret not punching Cuno when at beginning of the game and autopsy.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Kasparov , I've got the absolutely best idea about the interquel you need to do between Disco 1 and Disco 2. Since so many people have been criticizing you for lacking a real combat system, the next game in the Disco setting should be a tactical RPG.

I see it as two factions, each with their own campaign. No, make it three, the third one DLC. Communards, Interventionalists, and Royalists. 5 missions with each should be enough.

You should also take some cues from the obviously best and most successfull narrative game in history - the player character should be story-railroaded into raping Kim's mother. Players love the shock effect, I hear.

In the final Communard mission the players will have to survive successive waves of Intervention forces while they use pieces torn off the white flag as bandages.

 

[Xamenos]

I've got the absolutely best idea about the interquel you need to do between Disco 1 and Disco 2. Since so many people have been criticizing you for lacking a real combat system, the next game in the Disco setting should be a tactical RPG.

I see it as two factions, each with their own campaign. No, make it three, the third one DLC. Communards, Interventionalists, and Royalists. 5 missions with each should be enough.

You should also take some cues from the obviously best and most successfull narrative game in history - the player character should be story-railroaded into raping Kim's mother. Players love the shock effect, I hear.

In the final Communard mission the players will have to survive successive waves of Intervention forces while they use pieces torn off the white flag as bandages.

I will buy it if and only if it includes lining up computer engineers against a wall and shooting them in a communard mission. Everyone knows that properly punishing traitors of the Revolution is how you prove Communism is right.

 

[Twiglard]

Even the murderer is mostly innocent due to him being not a real communist, but an insane Nazbol who rants half of the time about why the fascists were right, and has neurodamage from either the Phasmid or just disease.

He's a full-on Stalinist. A "real communist" by any definition, but hardly a commendable one. I felt sorry for him but for personal reasons -- being left behind by history to dwell on the past like Harry, and his overall pitifulness.

The union leader might be a caricature of the caviar communist - but he is inredibly effective for the workers.

He's a mob boss. The union is a front.

That's how a leftist sees these characters. Clearly, if the game praised socialism then it would be the leftist posters who praised it the most?

 

[Stavrophore]

That's how a leftist sees these characters. Clearly, if the game praised socialism then it would be the leftist posters who praised it the most?

Left wing press love it. Developers like chapotraphouse[a literal communists cheering a demise of capitalism in united states]https://twitter.com/studioZAUM/status/1184592958731051009. Socialist answers in game are generally friendly received and have more interesting dialogue follow up. Game greatly criticize the "misinterpretations/distortions" of communist/socialist ideology, but these misinterpretations are just an integral part of these systems. In Poland during PRL this was called "wypaczenia", basically every bad thing that happens under communism wasn't a fault of communism, but of corrupt forces. Problem is, humans are corrupted and behave according to their innate nature, so building a system based on some idealistic, unnatural state of humans, while going against their nature/corruption, is doomed to fail.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

Evrart is a typical Soviet/postSoviet type of guy in charge. Like, half of local government or institutions' functioners in Russia looks and talks like that I suppose.

 

[Tigranes]

Re. why Disco was popular - Disco has its failings, but one thing it very clearly achieves is that it is a gorgeous looking game that shows off its uniqueness in every moment, and as a bonus, (1) hard to fail or get stuck so game journos can enjoy it, (2) has enough flourishes and fanservice to excite hipsters and armchair philosophy nerds. It's not hugely surprising that it ended up being critically acclaimed. Disco is ambitious and complex in how it tries to push its game mechanics, but not in ways that present truly difficult tactical choices of any kind.

Actually, that raises an important point. In many C&C heavy / nonlinear games, the most weighty decisions often involve some 'prize' that is offered to the player if they made the right choices - Disco seems to intentionally avoid these. The prize can be a gameplay boon, or it can be a larping reward (I get to be leader of the guild! I get to romance X! I get to save Y's life! I get to decide if the commie revolution succeeds!). And so a lot of players will rigorously game the C&C to try and get those rewards, too. But not Disco.

There are little moments like the fate of the Church, but there's never a sense that you make a powerful choice that changes the world around you. Even when you directly have a hand in dooming the little fishing settlement, for example, you never get to witness the consequences. You simply leave a letter in a postbox, or deliver a signed envelope - there's not even the aggrieved villager who screams at you that you've ruined their lives. On the thematic side, I think this is fine - it works well with Disco's core themes of helplessness and persevering. On the gameplay side, it's another place where I think the game loses a conventional sense of 'challenge' and also makes players feel like there's not enough consequence / RPGing going on.

 

[Twiglard]

Left wing press love it.

You're from Poland like me, so you should understand the difference between social democratic values -- trade unionism, access to education and health care, freedom of speech -- and the crazy New Left (hippies, SJWs). It's hard for the latter to take any stance without confusing itself.

It's so bad that the English-speaking world now considers "leftist" or "liberal" to mean "SJW" or close to it. DE discusses leftism in the former sense, as does any reasonable person. But the New Left doesn't understand left wing values, to them a Stalinist is stunning and brave.

Socialist answers in game are generally friendly received and have more interesting dialogue follow up.

The political choice parts of the dialogue tree are all unhinged with answers like "yeah whatever". The "communards" translate to "communists" in our understanding. You can see from various events (two million people murdered, Party domination as per Iosif Bros) that they weren't any good and Iosif even relates to Maoist "self-criticism".

In Poland during PRL this was called "wypaczenia", basically every bad thing that happens under communism wasn't a fault of communism, but of corrupt forces. Problem is, humans are corrupted and behave according to their innate nature, so building a system based on some idealistic, unnatural state of humans, while going against their nature/corruption, is doomed to fail.

That's all true and how myself, my parents and grandparents understand it, yeah.

Game greatly criticize the "misinterpretations/distortions" of communist/socialist ideology

Distortions? For there to be a distortion there has to be a correct version. The game clearly states that there's no better way. Iosif is a totalitarian with all his "ideologically correct" rhetoric. Evrart is a demagogue and a hustler. EU bureaucrat (the type from Germany/France) just spews neoliberal dogma and isn't interested in the slightest on how things are on the ground. If anything it's Rene (right-wing old-timer) that was the most sympathetic of the political characters, due to his humility and bravery, and lack of any unhinged wingnuttery. Reminds me a bit of a WW2 veteran.

As an organization, ironically it's RCM that's the most sympathetic. As the ending shows they're the ones most likely to lead a coup against the moralist occupiers.

We probably all agree on the fallacies of Leninism (i.e. vanguardism), central planning, and top-down control. The game doesn't defend them.

 

[Cat Dude]

My GPU reached 70 degree C when playing this game. The highest so far.

 

[Latro]

My GPU reached 70 degree C when playing this game. The highest so far.

all that combat is making your PC go crazy

 

[Cat Dude]

My GPU reached 70 degree C when playing this game. The highest so far.

all that combat is making your PC go crazy

The game looks like shit but it is more demanding than The Witcher 3 at 4K. May be working class patch could solve the issues.

 

[Tigranes]

I don't look shit, buddy. I never look shit. I'm the opposite of shit. I'm a mother fucking superstar.

 

[Stavrophore]

I don't look shit, buddy. I never look shit. I'm the opposite of shit. I'm a mother fucking superstar.

I wish their ingame 3D model were as half as realistic as their 2D art. And the guy looks worse when shaven. Ugh it was a bad decision after all.

 

[Latro]

I don't look shit, buddy. I never look shit. I'm the opposite of shit. I'm a mother fucking superstar.

the dumbest internal conversation i have ever read in fiction

 

[Stavrophore]

You're from Poland like me, so you should understand the difference between social democratic values -- trade unionism, access to education and health care, freedom of speech -- and the crazy New Left (hippies, SJWs). It's hard for the latter to take any stance without confusing itself.

It's so bad that the English-speaking world now considers "leftist" or "liberal" to mean "SJW" or close to it. DE discusses leftism in the former sense, as does any reasonable person. But the New Left doesn't understand left wing values, to them a Stalinist is stunning and brave.

it just so happens, almost every person who were in communist party of poland, and believed these ideas, become a "social democrat" politician after the communist collapse. Weird coincidence right? Most of them are also vehemently pro EU. Another coincidence. What i mean people rarely show their true colors, when there's a big peer pressure involved. And in Poland describing yourself as a communist is just a political suicide. Hence you almost never know what a politician really are because of this retarded mainstream political order which only accept politician that officially and publicly pledge allegiance to its tenets.

 

[KVVRR]

Nah, i've aimed a gun at him, but didn't shot. I thought they would fire me. The fucker didn't talk to me when i hadn't apologized. Couldn't end some quests. These kids were so annoying, i regret not punching Cuno when at beginning of the game and autopsy.

That was Cunoesse you tried to shoot, not Cuno. And you should've gone through with it.

Kasparov , I've got the absolutely best idea about the interquel you need to do between Disco 1 and Disco 2. Since so many people have been criticizing you for lacking a real combat system, the next game in the Disco setting should be a tactical RPG.

I see it as two factions, each with their own campaign. No, make it three, the third one DLC. Communards, Interventionalists, and Royalists. 5 missions with each should be enough.

You should also take some cues from the obviously best and most successfull narrative game in history - the player character should be story-railroaded into raping Kim's mother. Players love the shock effect, I hear.

In the final Communard mission the players will have to survive successive waves of Intervention forces while they use pieces torn off the white flag as bandages.

You should also have an scene where Kim's beaten to death by Measurehead's sister with a golf club and have you play her for the rest of the game. Also at the end you get to call Harry a piece of shit for killing all those people.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Kim wouldn't have been born during the revolution, I think.