Diablo 2: Resurrected remaster

[Hobo Elf]

You got more builds and diversity with synergies because shit skills suddenly became usable due to better damage scaling.

They could have just made the shit skills non-shit though.

And that's what they did.

All a synergy does is mean that a skill actually takes 40 points to max rather than 20.

So? Before depending on your class about half of your skill points were pointless. This way you can invest them all in a meaningful way.

 

[Average Manatee]

So?

Level 40 is the point at which you start playing in Hell. It's stupid to have players forced to min-max one skill to make it good. It's not like being able to max more skills would make characters significantly more powerful except against enemies with immunities to their strongest attack type.

 

[Lacrymas]

The whole problem is that the vaaaaaaaaaaaast majority of builds rely on spamming 1 or 2 skills. Who finds hammerdins engaging f.e.?

 

[Hobo Elf]

So?

Level 40 is the point at which you start playing in Hell. It's stupid to have players forced to min-max one skill to make it good. It's not like being able to max more skills would make characters significantly more powerful except against enemies with immunities to their strongest attack type.

No way you're level 40 when you start Hell unless someone boosted you or you're avoiding enemies on purpose for a challenge run. You're also forgetting the extra 8 skill points you'd have from quests on Normal and Nightmare.

 

[Average Manatee]

No way you're level 40 when you start Hell unless someone boosted you or you're avoiding enemies on purpose for a challenge run. You're also forgetting the extra 8 skill points you'd have from quests on Normal and Nightmare.

Players 1 you're somewhere in the 40s if you are generally beelining your way along the critical path. At the very least you're around Act 3/4 Nightmare. Also there's prereqs.

Of course if you're playing a weaker build then you probably need to grind a bit more. I'm guessing average hell entry is around level 50ish for non-weapon based builds. If you rely on hitting things with a weapon then, first off, god bless you, secondly you better be level 65 and have spent 50 hours grinding equipment.

 

[Perkel]

What's wrong with Grim Dawn's skill system? Or Titan Quest's for that matter.

Skills aren't limited by your level which means you can quickly go for high end skill max it out before you even kill warden. Aka making game easy as shit. It only changes in late game where game catches up to it but by then you already probably have gear to outmatch it again. With GD i have to play on veteran mode to have any kind of semblance of challenge as game catches up faster than in normal mode.

I started to play with artificial limit to mastery (only upping mastery to char lvl) and you could see it was much better game this way. Before you max out skill game already catches to you and you naturally progress into gear upgrade and slowly build up power, bosses and encounters then make a lot of sense and pose actually a challenge.

Overall i like GD skill system but this nugget just annihilates much of game gameplay. This isn't particularly only GD problem as challenge of campaign seems to be going away in many arpgs who started to treat it as 20-40hours opening to their end game which usually i don't really like.

 

[Reinhardt]

Skills aren't limited by your level which means you can quickly go for high end skill max it out before you even kill warden. Aka making game easy as shit. It only changes in late game where game catches up to it but by then you already probably have gear to outmatch it again. With GD i have to play on veteran mode to have any kind of semblance of challenge as game catches up faster than in normal mode.

and in d2 you have to play through game twice just to have any challenge. and this challenge is "monsters are not even that hard, just half of them are immune to your skill of choice."

 

[Great Deceiver]

Well, my HC pally just got killed by Duriel. I thought I was owning and nothing else prior to that even came close to killing me. RIP

 

[Perkel]

and in d2 you have to play through game twice just to have any challenge. and this challenge is "monsters are not even that hard, just half of them are immune to your skill of choice."

that's not true. D2 campaign even on normal is much harder than pretty much any other arpg campaign. It is only when you find a lot of good low level gear when challange of campaign goes away. There is a reason why you stack poison defense or freeze defense in act 1 and 2, it's not YOLO your dead duriel like pretty much any other arpg these days with bosses.

 

[Lacrymas]

Well, my HC pally just got killed by Duriel.

Daddy D is the hardest thing in the entirety of the normal campaign, so no surprise there. He is so unlike anything else that he feels like he plays by other rules or is from a different game entirely.

What's wrong with Grim Dawn's skill system? Or Titan Quest's for that matter.

Skills aren't limited by your level which means you can quickly go for high end skill max it out before you even kill warden. Aka making game easy as shit. It only changes in late game where game catches up to it but by then you already probably have gear to outmatch it again. With GD i have to play on veteran mode to have any kind of semblance of challenge as game catches up faster than in normal mode.

I started to play with artificial limit to mastery (only upping mastery to char lvl) and you could see it was much better game this way. Before you max out skill game already catches to you and you naturally progress into gear upgrade and slowly build up power, bosses and encounters then make a lot of sense and pose actually a challenge.

Overall i like GD skill system but this nugget just annihilates much of game gameplay. This isn't particularly only GD problem as challenge of campaign seems to be going away in many arpgs who started to treat it as 20-40hours opening to their end game which usually i don't really like.

Veteran is what you should be playing on if you have even rudimentary experience with hack and slashers, that's why it's called Veteran. I skip that entirely now and go directly to Elite or even Ultimate. I think starting on Elite is a good middle ground, though. GD is definitely not an easy game even when you have good gear because build plays a huge role as well.

 

[Hobo Elf]

No way you're level 40 when you start Hell unless someone boosted you or you're avoiding enemies on purpose for a challenge run. You're also forgetting the extra 8 skill points you'd have from quests on Normal and Nightmare.

Players 1 you're somewhere in the 40s if you are generally beelining your way along the critical path. At the very least you're around Act 3/4 Nightmare. Also there's prereqs.

Of course if you're playing a weaker build then you probably need to grind a bit more. I'm guessing average hell entry is around level 50ish for non-weapon based builds. If you rely on hitting things with a weapon then, first off, god bless you, secondly you better be level 65 and have spent 50 hours grinding equipment.

If we are going by vanilla D2 (pre-LoD, pre-synergies) game balance then Hell was a soul crushing grind to solo anyway, unless you were a Sorc with good gear. Before balance patches Hell was intended as a difficulty that you'd coop with others in order to win.
Funny how people are complaining about D4 forcing online coop play to do all the content, but D2 already tried it. At least the game was changed based on what players wanted instead of forcing them to play together.

 

[Zlaja]

Daddy D is the hardest thing in the entirety of the normal campaign, so no surprise there

I think Diablo is tougher for melee chars. His lightning attack is a bitch to dodge, even if you anticipate it and start circling him in time. Having really high lightning resistance will only barely keep you standing.

 

[Cael]

Daddy D is the hardest thing in the entirety of the normal campaign, so no surprise there

I think Diablo is tougher for melee chars. His lightning attack is a bitch to dodge, even if you anticipate it and start circling him in time. Having really high lightning resistance will only barely keep you standing.

The ring of fire tends to fry the squishier ranged builds, though.

 

[Average Manatee]

I think Diablo is tougher for melee chars. His lightning attack is a bitch to dodge, even if you anticipate it and start circling him in time. Having really high lightning resistance will only barely keep you standing.

In Hell the starting radius of his lightning is further out, meaning if you stand close enough it won't hit you. Very useful trick.

 

[luj1]

You got more builds and diversity with synergies because shit skills suddenly became usable due to better damage scaling.

levelling is better too

 

[Zlaja]

Well, my HC pally just got killed by Duriel. I thought I was owning and nothing else prior to that even came close to killing me. RIP

*Paladin enters Duriel's chamber*
Duriel: Hello!
Paladin: I can't breathe....

 

[ArchAngel]

Well, my HC pally just got killed by Duriel. I thought I was owning and nothing else prior to that even came close to killing me. RIP

*Paladin enters Duriel's chamber*
Duriel: Hello!
Paladin: I can't breathe....

You were so close but missed the mark. Let me fix it for you:
*Paladin enters Duriel's chamber*
Duriel: Freeze jogger!
Paladin: I can't breathe....

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I have enough gaming addictions without popping the Blizz Pill of D2 extra strength. Fuck that....

... i'll just stick with my pure EUTOPIAN and chase some dragons..

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

I just wish Diablo 2 was actually good (and an actual improvement over the first game) so that when every other game inevitably copied it we didn't get a boring waypoint-based mess where death is meaningless and everything is a item grind machine.

I really should do a big write up on Diablo 2 and why it's an inferior sequel to the much more well-realised and structurally-sound original game.

 

[Average Manatee]

I just wish Diablo 2 was actually good (and an actual improvement over the first game) so that when every other game inevitably copied it we didn't get a boring waypoint-based mess where death is meaningless and everything is a item grind machine.

Diablo 2 is more than the sum of its parts. Because each of its parts taken individually are pretty ass.

 

[Great Deceiver]

I distinctly remember even back during D2's release feeling like Diablo 1 was clearly the superior game. Even back when people didn't play D2 in full sperg mode (those were the days), it felt significantly inferior in terms of atmosphere and especially pacing. It was all over the place whereas the first game was much more cohesive and focused.

I would liked to have seen an alternate timeline where Diablo 2 and its derivatives developed interesting mechanics (both level-based and character-based) and were tuned for a single playthrough instead of being grind mill popamole.

 

[ArchAngel]

I distinctly remember even back during D2's release feeling like Diablo 1 was clearly the superior game. Even back when people didn't play D2 in full sperg mode (those were the days), it felt significantly inferior in terms of atmosphere and especially pacing. It was all over the place whereas the first game was much more cohesive and focused.

I would liked to have seen an alternate timeline where Diablo 2 and its derivatives developed interesting mechanics (both level-based and character-based) and were tuned for a single playthrough instead of being grind mill popamole.

I never felt like that. I understood from the start that they were not same games. Also I loved how I could now plan and make my characters when in D1 it was way more limited and very random as well.

 

[Zlaja]

we didn't get a boring waypoint-based mess where death is meaningless

Death here is a bit more inconvenient than in most games. Even if you only play softcore, you suffer both 20% money loss and, in nightmare and hell, xp loss on death. You also have to retrieve your gear manually, which can be a bit tricky in certain places (or save & exit which resets all enemies). Certainly more 'meaningfull' than quicksaving every 2 minutes.

 

[ASTRAL]

Duriel is preety much the Butcher of Diablo 2

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

I just wish Diablo 2 was actually good (and an actual improvement over the first game) so that when every other game inevitably copied it we didn't get a boring waypoint-based mess where death is meaningless and everything is a item grind machine.

Diablo 2 is more than the sum of its parts. Because each of its parts taken individually are pretty ass.

It's a shame because D1 was still very primitive. They could have built upon that core in a way that worked really well, and we could have gotten some amazing Diablo games that actually had enough depth to be interesting (D1's main problem is it's simplicity). Instead we get a very shallow DND-lite where getting legendary items is all that matters and people grind certain areas (cow level, maps, Baal clone etc) over and over and over again repeatedly trying to get the 1/300 item drops.

I agree D2 is more than the sum of it's parts. It's actually pretty fun in small doses. When played in Hardcore mode it's a somewhat interesting Roguelike, and with mods like PD2 it's possible to explore more viable interesting builds than were available in vanilla, but it still sags and gets boring when it takes between 3 and 10 hours or so to really get your build going, and after putting the 20th point into the same skill again it can get pretty tedious, especially when playing through Normal which is just a tad too easy.

we didn't get a boring waypoint-based mess where death is meaningless

Death here is a bit more inconvenient than in most games. Even if you only play softcore, you suffer both 20% money loss and, in nightmare and hell, xp loss on death. You also have to retrieve your gear manually, which can be a bit tricky in certain places (or save & exit which resets all enemies). Certainly more 'meaningfull' than quicksaving every 2 minutes.

True, but gold is essentially infinte anyway and XP loss can't de-level you, so it's mostly a non-issue. What matters in D2 are items, and the save-and-exit thing guarantees you'll always get them back no matter what.

I agree Quicksave/Quickload spam is a problem in many games. They should have fixed it by using a proper save system, rather than making death slightly inconvenient.

It's why Hardcore is the only valid way to play IMO. Death actually means something, and by virtue of each run being inherently limited in length because you are going to die eventually, getting the absolute best in slot items is less important than building a survivable-enough build, which makes a lot of lesser builds much more viable.