Developer Story Time with Old Man Davis

[HobGoblin42]

This thread, man, I'm on page seven, it's great stuff, please pin this down.

yeah, this thread has more topics than postings.

 

[Roguey]

That's very arguable. Dungeon Siege III is as low as they've gotten (as much as I've enjoyed it) as that was really just contract work to survive after the BGIII cancellation and wasn't done because people were overly excited about making a Dungeon Siege title. In South Park's (especially) and the MMO's case we at least know that Obs has/had lots of fans.

I imagine it's hard to get passionate about working on ~parts~ of other peoples' projects. Obsidian's future involves a lot of pure work-for-hire drudgery.

 

[Infinitron]

Yo, Anthony Davis

Here's an example of an EVIL DEVELOPER screwing over a hardworking publisher: http://kotaku.com/5955223/what-went-wrong-with-silicon-knights-x+men-destiny (Skyway and raw just jizzed in their pants)

"At SK, publishers are viewed with an extremely adversarial perception," a former employee said. "Instead of a symbiotic relationship, it was essentially parasitic. The less Activision knew about the goings-on at SK, the easier it was for Denis to spin his web of warped reality with them.

Another source expands on what they saw as "SK management's fundamental belief of how the industry works." This belief revolves around the principle of "getting the initial contract signed for a fairly low amount. They want to get the contractual and financial hooks into the publisher. This is accomplished by promising massive worlds, epic player-controlled stories, and an overall ‘fantastical' experience. They leverage this by talking about Eternal Darkness endlessly." The GameCube game's critical acclaim and respectable sales fostered trust and faith among publishers, the source said. This approach had has earned SK projects at least three times: with Sega, Microsoft, and Activision.

Once a publisher signed the main contract, SK delivered assets for "months and months," according to several sources. "Characters, rooms, FX, concepts. This gives [the publisher] the impression that progress on the game is occurring when, really, they were just getting a totally unorganized mess of assets. Eventually, questions were raised about the actual overall game, and when things would start to come together into something resembling a gaming experience." Another source tells me that "the technical challenges of trying to create and play any asset with the SK engine was impossible enough, especially with ever-changing direction from Denis. Often, documents and concepts were the only thing we could consistently deliver [to the publisher]."

At this point, the heavy stalling and major excuses from SK management would begin, former employees say. "Feedback to the publisher was delayed; often, this was a two-month feedback loop with mostly ignored comments or vague promises to look at something. These issues were then totally dropped by SK."

Next, according to sources, comes the request from SK that it requires additional time to complete the project. "We aren't talking a couple of months of full production here," the same source says. "We are talking six to 12 months; almost always 12 months. This basically blows out the budget for the game by an additional 35 percent or so. You can imagine the reaction this got from the financial guys doing projections over at Activision."

Obviously this is an extreme case, but how common would you say such things are?

 

[Anthony Davis]

Yo, Anthony Davis

Here's an example of an EVIL DEVELOPER screwing over a hardworking publisher: http://kotaku.com/5955223/what-went-wrong-with-silicon-knights-x+men-destiny (Skyway and raw just jizzed in their pants)

"At SK, publishers are viewed with an extremely adversarial perception," a former employee said. "Instead of a symbiotic relationship, it was essentially parasitic. The less Activision knew about the goings-on at SK, the easier it was for Denis to spin his web of warped reality with them.

Another source expands on what they saw as "SK management's fundamental belief of how the industry works." This belief revolves around the principle of "getting the initial contract signed for a fairly low amount. They want to get the contractual and financial hooks into the publisher. This is accomplished by promising massive worlds, epic player-controlled stories, and an overall ‘fantastical' experience. They leverage this by talking about Eternal Darkness endlessly." The GameCube game's critical acclaim and respectable sales fostered trust and faith among publishers, the source said. This approach had has earned SK projects at least three times: with Sega, Microsoft, and Activision.

Once a publisher signed the main contract, SK delivered assets for "months and months," according to several sources. "Characters, rooms, FX, concepts. This gives [the publisher] the impression that progress on the game is occurring when, really, they were just getting a totally unorganized mess of assets. Eventually, questions were raised about the actual overall game, and when things would start to come together into something resembling a gaming experience." Another source tells me that "the technical challenges of trying to create and play any asset with the SK engine was impossible enough, especially with ever-changing direction from Denis. Often, documents and concepts were the only thing we could consistently deliver [to the publisher]."

At this point, the heavy stalling and major excuses from SK management would begin, former employees say. "Feedback to the publisher was delayed; often, this was a two-month feedback loop with mostly ignored comments or vague promises to look at something. These issues were then totally dropped by SK."

Next, according to sources, comes the request from SK that it requires additional time to complete the project. "We aren't talking a couple of months of full production here," the same source says. "We are talking six to 12 months; almost always 12 months. This basically blows out the budget for the game by an additional 35 percent or so. You can imagine the reaction this got from the financial guys doing projections over at Activision."

Obviously this is an extreme case, but how common would you say such things are?

There are several things going on here.

1) projects go off the rails, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. Reasons for going off the rails can be anything and everything from tech problems, loss of critical path employees, to goalpost moving. I would say delays and derailments are pretty common. Most games get either delayed, or go over budget, crap happens in all aspects of life, developing video games is no different.

2) actually hiding and misleading a publisher on the status of a project going off the rails is pretty rare because:

a) publishes should and do keep better oversight on their money. This usually involves an on sight manager/producer and milestone reviews.
b) most developers aren't any more dishonest than the people who work there.

I would say #2 is very rare, but it does happen I'm sure.

 

[Anthony Davis]

That's very arguable. Dungeon Siege III is as low as they've gotten (as much as I've enjoyed it) as that was really just contract work to survive after the BGIII cancellation and wasn't done because people were overly excited about making a Dungeon Siege title. In South Park's (especially) and the MMO's case we at least know that Obs has/had lots of fans.

I imagine it's hard to get passionate about working on ~parts~ of other peoples' projects. Obsidian's future involves a lot of pure work-for-hire drudgery.

It's actually not that bad. Even on your worst days in the industry, you're still making video games. If you are lucky enough to be at a company,like Obsidian, you still have awesome people to hang out and talk with.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Now it's a codexian meme. I find it hilarious in Feargus' generally unsuccesful tries of making a quick profit context.

It is funny, but as far as I know his slam dunk sequels have generally been success stories (depending on your perspective, I suppose), there's a reason his company keeps getting asked to do them.

Yeah, but take as an example FNV: good game taking into account the engine, a lot of sells, great profits ... that end all in Bethesda's pockets due to some Metacritics popamole clausule. It's like a drunken ubernegro smashing with the fury of an angry god his own basket: great perfomance, bad results, a slam drunk.

What you're saying there is true for any publisher-backed project of a developer of Obsidian's size, it doesn't really apply specifically to slam dunk sequels (MetaCritic clauses are as common as they are fucking retarded). Since back in the Interplay days Feargus & co have delivered on really modest budgets and timeframes for these "slam dunk-style" sequels, and I believe he has a pretty good reputation for them built up by now, which is part of what's kept Obsidian in business. I don't know if Bethesda would've gone for New Vegas without Fallout 2 to KotOR II. I can't speak as to Obsidian's internal thoughts on this but I'd think they'd consider such projects successes even if the contracts are not, but crummy contracts are par for the course.

Especially now with more experience as a team and managing scope.

Also, FONV was a huge success for Obsidian even if they didn't take the lion's share of the profits. They built a relationship with a very strong developer/publisher in Bethesda, and other people took notice of FONV because it was a great game, despite not being everything the codex wanted.

What I really want it Steam Workshop support for it.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Also, sorry I haven't posted as much these past two days, been enjoying my time off from work. Beat Dark Arisen and have been reading some David Weber.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

Did Obsidian get a percentage on the sales of NV?

 

[Menckenstein]

Anthony Davis

What's Todd Howard like?

 

[tuluse]

Did Obsidian get a percentage on the sales of NV?

Is this a real question? I mean there's been like what 2 years of bitching about how Obsidian got screwed out of their bonus.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

Did Obsidian get a percentage on the sales of NV?

Is this a real question? I mean there's been like what 2 years of bitching about how Obsidian got screwed out of their bonus.

So a small percentage of sales and a bonus can't coexist in the same contract?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

 

[Indranys]

Anthony Davis

What's Todd Howard like?

 

[tuluse]

So a small percentage of sales and a bonus can't coexist in the same contract?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

Well no, Obsidian gets no royalties.

I'm pretty sure NWN2 is the only game they get royalties for. Everything else has been mercenary work.

 

[Roguey]

Also, FONV was a huge success for Obsidian even if they didn't take the lion's share of the profits. They built a relationship with a very strong developer/publisher in Bethesda, and other people took notice of FONV because it was a great game, despite not being everything the codex wanted.

They still ended up damaging that relationship with Avellone blurting out that thing about the bonuses and having to delete the tweet, and with several game journalists running with Josh Sawyer's explanation of why New Vegas eventually sputters out on the PS3 and applying that to Skyrim's similar issue.

 

[Infinitron]

several game journalists running with Josh Sawyer's explanation of why New Vegas eventually sputters out on the PS3 and applying that to Skyrim's similar issue.

 

[Roguey]

Hey it's a thing that happened.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...Vegas-Dev-weighs-in-on-Skyrims-PS3-Lag-Issues
http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/12/04/new-vegas-dev-sounds-off-on-skyrims-ps3-problems
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-does-fallout-nv-lag-explain-skyrim-issues
http://www.1up.com/news/fallout-new-vegas-developer-explains-skyrim-lag

And the rebuttal
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...-New-Vegas-Dev-Is-Wrong-About-Skyrims-PS3-Lag
http://www.vg247.com/2011/12/07/bethesda-debunks-obsidian-devs-skyrim-ps3-lag-theory/

And of course http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/339170939021326902

 

[Kane]

Also, sorry I haven't posted as much these past two days, been enjoying my time off from work. Beat Dark Arisen and have been reading some David Weber.

How important would you say are these meaningless and for the job irrelevant snippets of insight into your private life? Do they make you more authentic and believable in job interviews? I ask because this seems to be typical for experts (10+ years experience) to tweet that stuff.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Also, sorry I haven't posted as much these past two days, been enjoying my time off from work. Beat Dark Arisen and have been reading some David Weber.

How important would you say are these meaningless and for the job irrelevant snippets of insight into your private life? Do they make you more authentic and believable in job interviews? I ask because this seems to be typical for experts (10+ years experience) to tweet that stuff.

I'm not sure i understand, you mean you AREN'T interested in what I'm playing or reading?!


I don't try to be authentic, I am the very embodiment of authentic.

I also don't have a twitter account...but isn't most stuff I twitter inane garbage anyway?


Seriously, I'm not sure i understand your question...

 

[Anthony Davis]

Hey it's a thing that happened.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...Vegas-Dev-weighs-in-on-Skyrims-PS3-Lag-Issues
http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/12/04/new-vegas-dev-sounds-off-on-skyrims-ps3-problems
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-does-fallout-nv-lag-explain-skyrim-issues
http://www.1up.com/news/fallout-new-vegas-developer-explains-skyrim-lag

And the rebuttal
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...-New-Vegas-Dev-Is-Wrong-About-Skyrims-PS3-Lag
http://www.vg247.com/2011/12/07/bethesda-debunks-obsidian-devs-skyrim-ps3-lag-theory/

And of course http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/339170939021326902

Mmmmm hmmmm. Interesting.

 

[MicoSelva]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...-New-Vegas-Dev-Is-Wrong-About-Skyrims-PS3-Lag

While Fallout: New Vegas used the aging Gamebryo engine, Skyrim uses Bethesda's new Creation Engine.

I wonder if they really expect us to believe these are two different engines, instead of Skyrim's being a slight update of Gamebryo.

 

[sea]

I don't know for sure, but my guess based on what information is publicly available, is that the particularities of the problem are different and they're trying to make that distinction. That, or Bethesda are lying because they don't want to be held as inferior to "buggy 'ol Obsidian.

It's really not a bug, which is why it took so long to be improved (not fixed). It's a performance degradation which is an inevitability due to the PS3's much more limited memory pool. Bethesda's solution, I'm fairly sure, was to painstakingly optimize variables throughout the game and have information dropped from the save file much more aggressively in order to keep file size down, as well as to make more fundamental engine-level changes that improved memory handling.

We're literally talking stuff in the realm of 1 MB or less, but because current-gen consoles are so memory-staved and the graphics bar keeps going up, they are pressed right to the wall. Why do you think Mass Effect 3 had to remove non-combat and combat game states being loaded at the same time to continue running smoothly, even if it's ultimately a tiny amount of memory required? That's what you get when you are using literally every possible resource available on the platform. It's kinda crazy you can even do such a huge open-world game at all.

 

[dunno lah]

They sent a PR guy to do dmg ctrl instead of the lead programmer on skyrim...yeah that sure helped their counter claims alright.

 

[villain of the story]

http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/460875653244282443

So Onyx engine is dead ? Sad, I liked it very much in DS3..

This was news to me, but it’s not too surprising. I had the sense that engine development on Dungeon Siege 3 was a significant investment, and if that game had been made with something like Unity, we may have had more resources to devote to the game itself. (And the stretched resources on DS3 were a big part of the reason for its shortcomings.)

What is interesting is Larian after using third party software, has chosen to spend considerable resources building their own engine. lol

Larian probably practiced some common sense and didn't bloat their own engine with expensive middleware to the point of making them a dependency. For small to middle sized developers, building your own engine is still a very good investment if you have good programmers, resources and clear goals without needing to rely on expensive middleware.

 

[villain of the story]

arguably South Park + Russian MMO is as low as they've gotten, but I wouldn't mind an Obsidian that keeps going the way they have done, plus a side strand of Kickstarted P:E.

That is a silly thing to say. South Park is a massive franchise. It has better global recognition than the best selling video game. For any fan wanting an interactive mishmash of the best of South Park in game format, that's a dream come true. And when the creators wanted to do a new game, they went straight to Obsidian, not anybody else. That's high praise. The only thing that is shit about Obsidian doing a South Park game is your perception of it based on your narrow perception.

 

[Tigranes]

I agree, in retrospect that statement was pretty much "I don't like x" and it doesn't really stand up.