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KickStarter DEMIURGOS: Path of the Leviathan, an alternative history adventure RPG
- Thread starter CryptRat
- Start date
Well, someone will have toDaniel Bill you could hire me to get a fascist viewpoint into the game and attract Stormfront posters to the game.
Daniel Bill
DemiurgExMachina
Difficult to answer. Especially now in english. I will try to cover it in the interview.
Let me just say, I think different people can think in completely different categories. For example:
Dialectical Materialism means that, and I quote Wikipedia:
"It accepts evolution of the natural world and the emergence of new qualities of being at new stages of evolution."
This assumptions among others lead to another theory: the Historical Materialism. Wikipedia:
"It is principally a theory of history according to which the material conditions of a society's way of producing and
reproducing the means of human existence or, in Marxist terms, the union of its productive capacity and social relations
of production, fundamentally determine its organization and development."
Both theories are deeply connected with communistic ideologies and therefore some people reject them in a reflexive way I think.
But it goes even deeper. They aren't theories of morality but theories of cognition and prediction.
You can design a game that doesnt judge the ideologic view of its player only to an extend, if you are honest.
In reality, the outcome of an event in the game is nothing more than what we as designers think it would be.
Example:
I would never support a law that enacts collective punishment, for example against terrorists. I think it is unethical.
But I believe that such a law would be one of the most efficient ways to opress minorities, that threatens the state they live in - like islamistic terrorists. I think it es reasonable.
What we can do in the game is to not judge the players decisions as unethical or ethical.
What we can not do is to stay neutral in decisions regarding matters of reasonability.
Analogous to this, one could criticise much more about the game, saying it follows in total a completely wrong premise of historical cognition.
I would love to talk about this in the interview.
He contacted me but he said that he can't do anything without an alpha demo he can play. We decided to not put a demo together a year ago and it is impossible
to create something with stability in this short amount of time.
It's funny. No one noticed the time of day the Kickstarter went live.
Well, someone will have toDaniel Bill you could hire me to get a fascist viewpoint into the game and attract Stormfront posters to the game.fashflesh out the lore, background and role of fourth faction which was showen for brief moment on world map and caught my attention...
Nice! Our first fanart!
Fair enough and very honest from you. I understand now much better your position and game. I haven't withdrawn my pledge, I guess that should tell enough that my opinion of game hasn't changed, I just now understand it better. I still think it's interesting and intriguing game, worthy of existance aka being funded.
I know how hard if not next to impossible is to make reasonably bug free and reasonably functional version of game in the middle of development for demonstration purpose so you better don't waste effort on it. What's with version you played in 20+ min. video, is that anywhere close to playable? Maybe at this point even version you're currently using with giant PRE-PRE-ALPHA version banner on it would do much more good then bad if it's shown on Sargon's channel and he explains that it's far from final version and that premise and team behind it are worthy of backing plus beating socialists in voting. If you spend next, I dunno 10 days, on solely making somewhat stable version he could play, that will surelly give you huge boost in last 6 days which could connect with usual boost all Kickstarters get in last 48h...
I still think you should send him all the updates as they come out, maybe he will give you at least shout out or mention on Twitter or at the end of one of his videos on Youtube. Did you have any luck with other Youtubers I mentioned? Also try to contact Kraut and Tea, he's close friend of Sargon, has quite big youtube channel, also deals with very similar topics though not so sure if he's as big gamer and he's your fellow German so reason more to help you (or not), I guess. :D Also try Vee and Stefan Molyneux (I respect him great deal). Vee might do video and Stefan might mention you. It's worthy of try, I'd say. Better then nothing.
Don't know what else to do or say. Say something outrageus and get some drama started. Publish that you have account and post on Codex, that does the trick most of the time. All the gaming outlets will start reporting about it asap. :D
All in all, wish you luck.
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MRY
Wormwood Studios
This looks totally absurd, probably in a good way. That said, my etymology sensitivity is being triggered.
encyclopedia (n.)
1530s, "general course of instruction," from Modern Latin encyclopaedia (c. 1500), thought to be a false reading by Latin authors of Greek enkyklios paideia taken as "general education," but literally "training in a circle," i.e. the "circle" of arts and sciences, the essentials of a liberal education; from enkyklios "circular," also "general" (from en "in;" see in + kyklos "circle;" from PIE root *kwel- (1) "revolve, move round") + paideia "education, child-rearing," from pais (genitive paidos) "child" (see pedo-).
Modern sense of "reference work arranged alphabetically" is from 1640s, often applied specifically to the French "Encyclopédie ou Dictionnaire raisonné des Sciences, des Arts, et des Métiers" (1751-65). Related: Encyclopedist.
This game appears to have it all - story, setting, actual mechanics and gameplay, interesting presentation. Much better then No Truce with Commies except in art department.
You can even play as non-bolshevik and you won't automatically be labeled as fascist! WEW!
If this game in the end doesn't reach at least funding goal that would be more than a shame, it would be a bad omen that The Age of Decline is approaching.
Will the Order of Incline be able to prevent it before it's too late? Find out in next 14 days...
MRY
Wormwood Studios
The use of "theoretical physician" to describe Albert Einstein is awesome. :D
In general, I think having these historical figures in the game feels odd, and cross-wise to what I had (mis?)understood to be the game's main thematic current. I suspect that I have imputed to the game things that aren't there based on the fact that I'm looking for those things in games/stories generally, but I had gathered the idea was basically to take the cultural fabric of Classical Greece and then stretch that fabric across the material/technological frame of the 20th century. Rather than being an alternate history where the civilizations from the Fifth Century BC never fell, it would basically translate those civilizations into a modern setting -- the way modern productions of Shakespeare or even Greek plays often do.
I just don't see how cameos from random, anachronistic, non-Greek characters fit with that approach at all. It's not just that "Frida Kahlo" -- a Mexican-born painter -- would both not exist (because Spain would almost certainly never have colonized the New World in the same way in a world in which the persistence of the Persian Empire necessarily implies that the entire Moorish Conquest/Reconquest of Spain wouldn't have happened) and not be present on the scene (as far as I know, she never made it farther east than Paris, and even that only once?). It's that even if you changed her from Magdalena Carmen Frida Kahlo y Calderón of Coyoacán to Frona Kaliakos of Corinth, the cultural movement she embodies isn't from Classical Greek culture, it's literally Mexicanidad. And even if you changed it from Mexicanidad to Peloponnesism, it would still not be an expression of Classical Greek philosophy (I don't think, though I'm not an expert) because, based on my very limited understanding, I think the Mexicanidad movement (like "authenticité" in Zaire) was basically a semi-indigenous response to having been colonized by a foreign race and an effort to reassert a native cultural identity. Since I had gathered that the Greece of Demiurgos has not yet fallen to, say, Macedonia, I don't think there would be the preconditions for a Frona Kaliakos to espouse Peloponnesism (let alone for a Frida Kahlo to express Mexicanidad!).
That said, I suspect I'm totally misreading things and in fact the game's theme is something more like, "Classical Greece is really cool because you have all these small polities with very different cultures, cheek by jowl, and it's also the birthplace of philosophy, so why don't we just imagine a 20th century analogue where all 20th century philosophers are also cheek by jowl." I guess that might be a cool setting idea, but it's not the one that I projected onto the game.
In general, I think having these historical figures in the game feels odd, and cross-wise to what I had (mis?)understood to be the game's main thematic current. I suspect that I have imputed to the game things that aren't there based on the fact that I'm looking for those things in games/stories generally, but I had gathered the idea was basically to take the cultural fabric of Classical Greece and then stretch that fabric across the material/technological frame of the 20th century. Rather than being an alternate history where the civilizations from the Fifth Century BC never fell, it would basically translate those civilizations into a modern setting -- the way modern productions of Shakespeare or even Greek plays often do.
I just don't see how cameos from random, anachronistic, non-Greek characters fit with that approach at all. It's not just that "Frida Kahlo" -- a Mexican-born painter -- would both not exist (because Spain would almost certainly never have colonized the New World in the same way in a world in which the persistence of the Persian Empire necessarily implies that the entire Moorish Conquest/Reconquest of Spain wouldn't have happened) and not be present on the scene (as far as I know, she never made it farther east than Paris, and even that only once?). It's that even if you changed her from Magdalena Carmen Frida Kahlo y Calderón of Coyoacán to Frona Kaliakos of Corinth, the cultural movement she embodies isn't from Classical Greek culture, it's literally Mexicanidad. And even if you changed it from Mexicanidad to Peloponnesism, it would still not be an expression of Classical Greek philosophy (I don't think, though I'm not an expert) because, based on my very limited understanding, I think the Mexicanidad movement (like "authenticité" in Zaire) was basically a semi-indigenous response to having been colonized by a foreign race and an effort to reassert a native cultural identity. Since I had gathered that the Greece of Demiurgos has not yet fallen to, say, Macedonia, I don't think there would be the preconditions for a Frona Kaliakos to espouse Peloponnesism (let alone for a Frida Kahlo to express Mexicanidad!).
That said, I suspect I'm totally misreading things and in fact the game's theme is something more like, "Classical Greece is really cool because you have all these small polities with very different cultures, cheek by jowl, and it's also the birthplace of philosophy, so why don't we just imagine a 20th century analogue where all 20th century philosophers are also cheek by jowl." I guess that might be a cool setting idea, but it's not the one that I projected onto the game.
Interview done, got 1 hour and 30 minutes of material to transcribe.
Why did I sign up for this
Why did I sign up for this
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Brofist harvesting.Interview done, got 1 hour and 30 minutes of material to transcribe.
Why did I sign up for this
Now prepare yourself.
Daniel Bill
DemiurgExMachina
Yes! Please read our "Introduction" for more information. The theoretical fundament of the game is the "Critical Theory" - Theodor Adorno, Hannah Arendt, Walter Benjamin for example.
Benjamin said that true historicity is independant from actual history, therefore Frida Kahlo is HISTORICALLY a mexican painter influenced by... and so on. But there is also a component of historicity, that is totally divided from the historical background. It has to do with idealistic and materealistic dialectic and I talk about it in the interview. If people are interested I could also elaborate in an update.
What you have to take is: "a semi-indigenous response to having been colonized by a foreign race and an effort to reassert a native cultural identity" - this is kind of the component of historicity.
Greeks were one of the first european colonizers and the persians did similar things!
There is thought and reason behind every aspect of the game. You are right that there are different possible parallel dimension thinkable with our premises, but we chose the ancient greece after reading Herodots Histories and Thukydides Peloponnesian War. There is much more similarity than you seem to know about. One reason more to play the game! ; ) I also talk extensively about it in the interview! On the other hand it also is quite a cool setting I think. Regardless of all the thought we put into it.
You sound like the 6th army. Just without snow.
Well, it seems that the late Kickstarter push has come this time early!
...
If it keeps going this way, this train will reach stretch goals station in less then a week! We should ride this wave and not slide again dooooooown...
Still, despite all obstacles and decline that surrounds us, there's hope, funding goal and Incline on horizon!
...
If it keeps going this way, this train will reach stretch goals station in less then a week! We should ride this wave and not slide again dooooooown...
Still, despite all obstacles and decline that surrounds us, there's hope, funding goal and Incline on horizon!
Daniel Bill
DemiurgExMachina
Love your little Photoshops!
Really don't know what happend yesterday.
Really don't know what happend yesterday.
Whalenought_Joe
Whalenought Studios
Hey this terrific, Hannah and I loved the video overview you did of mechanics. Lots of sweet stuff in there, loved the character stat reaction to stealing. We mentioned your campaign to everyone in our last update a couple days ago, hope that helped.
Best of luck with the second half of your campaign, looking forward to seeing more of the game!
Best of luck with the second half of your campaign, looking forward to seeing more of the game!
too many inclines in one thread i can't handle thiiiiis
Daniel Bill
DemiurgExMachina
Thank you!
Yes, thats kind of our weak point and why we need the money. We would redo almost everything.
Maybe I should have emphasized it more.
Wow, thank you very much! That explains a lot!
You really put our campaign back on track.
Next update comes tomorrow!
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/546845775/demiurgos-path-of-the-leviathan/posts/1949035
Update VI: Einstein & Marx
In this update we would like to introduce two of the great persons that the players will encounter during the game. We plan on using a portion of the funds generated in the Kickstarter campaign to have unique portraits of these historical figures created. In our opinion, the envisioned artwork fits well with the general concept of the game and its expressionistic basis.
Albert Einstein - one of the most influential theoretical physicists of all time. His general theory of relativity served as the foundation for further research, culminating in the birth of the space age. His concept of time and space can be labeled a renewed Copernican revolution, for he views the gravitational power as geometrical property of the bending four-dimensional space-time.
Often this is visualized with a taut fabric on which a heavy ball is placed. The ball, with its weight, bends the fabric downward creating a circular structure on which a second ball can orbit; moving closer and closer to the center. With this theory, Einstein laid an important foundation to explain the state of the universe.
Research on black holes still today refers to Einstein’s general theory of relativity to visualize their genesis with a ball on fabric that is too heavy and causes the fabric to tear.
Karl Marx - generally known as one of the most important ideologists of communism. By far more significant than Marx ideological publications alone is his progressive development of Hegel´s dialectic idealism to a dialectic materialism.
Hegel assumed that reality is comprised of (dialectic) contradictions, which inevitably create and determine their own modification and the future. According to this theory the human mind contradicts itself and by doing so generates the becoming of objective reality.
"Consciousness determines existence".
Marx then reversed Hegel’s dialectic and postulated that the world, the objective reality, can be explained by its material existence and developments thereof – and not, as presumed in idealism, as a materialization of a divine absolute idea or of human thought.
"Existence determines consciousness".
From these theories Marx drew numerous conclusions. For example, historic materialism: describing the progress of history as evolution of human society in a set pattern, determined by economic processes. Socio-economic contradictions, characterizing formations of society on differentiable steps of development, are the driving forces behind the advancement of society. The resolution of the inherent antagonistic contradictions - surrounding each social system - inevitably leads to the emergence of a new social formation.
By remodeling his surroundings through his achievements, a human constructs himself as material and social beeing. To reproduce his life he establishes a historically determined relationship with other humans; these social circumstances affect him and ultimately constitute his historic existence or his distinct nature.
We hope our short presentation of these remarkable characters was thought provoking and arouse your interest. In the game, these great persons will be detached from their historic setting - but will appear according to their influence on mankind.
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JarlFrank interviews Daniel Bill: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...about-demiurgos-path-of-the-leviathan.117501/
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Daniel Bill
DemiurgExMachina
Yes it is disappointing. But I still have hope that it is as it is because we are newcomers and people just don't like Kickstarter campaigns by unknown people anymore.
Thanks a lot! I will check it out regularily.
Lacrymas
Arcane
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Lol @ those reddit comments. "RPGCodex is typically considered extremely elitist and as a result unreliable". Unreliable compared to who? Mainstream media lololol?
Also, Daniel Bill, check your conversations.
Also, Daniel Bill, check your conversations.
first I've heard of it by seeing this thread on the front page.. I tried to look at their kickstarter videos but they won't load
can someone give a rundown on why I should care?
I did notice one of the tiers was called libertarian, and that got me moist.
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