From Software Dark Souls 3

[Melmoth]

DeS bosses don't hold up in 2020. A lot of the design and atmosphere however does which is why FROM spent four games rehashing it every way they could.

I guess this is one of the reasons Sekiro is refreshing is that its less beholden to formalizing the environment/encounter design from DeS. Bloodborne feels like a failure in this respect. Even though the RPG elements have been rationalized further they cripple it from being an action game, and simultaneously the increased player mobility is not realized enough. The rally mechanic encourages poor choices but the alternates are awkward. Dropping flask for limited regen is thematically consistent but would also be degenerate if not for the rally mechanic (basically back to DeS grasses). Taken together you have an attempt to formally incentivize the player into treating engagements aggressively but the only extra tool given is the DS3 quickstep. The design is muddled and experimental by comparison to Sekiro, which is almost pedagogical the way every encounter imparts information. Once you are confident enough with the systems, you can use this information and the game is exhilarating. Bloodborne is 'dumber' in this respect, the attempt to produce greater or compounding dynamics by incentivizing player aggression works except when it doesn't. It's clear why FROM experimented with inverting this mechanic for Sekiro (deflect nullifies damage but is active as it decrements enemy posture gauge) and also why doing so swept away the RPG elements that were not compelling.

I hope they keep this shit up, as I think they have refined their state of the art immensely in just one leap. I doubt Elden Ring will be as ambitious from the way its being discussed, but maybe they will again do something cool on the side.

 

[Silverfish]

DeS bosses don't hold up in 2020.

I'd argue that Demon's has the least repetitious lineup of bosses in the series and as such, they hold up extremely well.

 

[Melmoth]

to elaborate they don't hold up in gameplay terms. they really are not responsive or interactive or even threatening today. sorry but there it is.

don't take it personally the game is 11 years old. maybe they have beguiling depth in some other way. armor spider is a very complicated and scholastic concept i suppose

 

[Silverfish]

I didn't say they weren't simplistic, but they're varied and present different experiences. 20 or so bosses that all do something a little different holds up far, far better over time than 20 bosses who all succumb to the roll button.


Edit: This is why people who complained about "gimmick" bosses back when DS3 came out drove me up the wall. Granted, you may not like The Deacons or Wolnir or the elbow drop dragon, but at least it's something to do besides "Artorias, but worse and with no buildup" like the other bosses offered up.

 

[Ivan]

Bloodborne is equivalent to playing Dark Souls 3 with Straight Swords only.

Here, BB "straight sword" entering your mom's ass:

Spoiler

this made my ribbies hurt after my workout. :D

 

[Melmoth]

I didn't say they weren't simplistic, but they're varied and present different experiences. 20 or so bosses that all do something a little different holds up far, far better over time than 20 bosses who all succumb to the roll button.

i don't mean to embarrass you but there is a roll button in demon souls as well

guess what

its super effective

 

[Silverfish]

Yes, the roll button is very effective against Maiden Astraea.

 

[Melmoth]

good thing there are twenty of her throughout the game for variety's sake

 

[Silva]

I guess this is one of the reasons Sekiro is refreshing is that its less beholden to formalizing the environment/encounter design from DeS. Bloodborne feels like a failure in this respect. Even though the RPG elements have been rationalized further they cripple it from being an action game, and simultaneously the increased player mobility is not realized enough. The rally mechanic encourages poor choices but the alternates are awkward. Dropping flask for limited regen is thematically consistent but would also be degenerate if not for the rally mechanic (basically back to DeS grasses). Taken together you have an attempt to formally incentivize the player into treating engagements aggressively but the only extra tool given is the DS3 quickstep. The design is muddled and experimental by comparison to Sekiro, which is almost pedagogical the way every encounter imparts information. Once you are confident enough with the systems, you can use this information and the game is exhilarating. Bloodborne is 'dumber' in this respect, the attempt to produce greater or compounding dynamics by incentivizing player aggression works except when it doesn't. It's clear why FROM experimented with inverting this mechanic for Sekiro (deflect nullifies damage but is active as it decrements enemy posture gauge) and also why doing so swept away the RPG elements that were not compelling.

Nah, Bloodborne is still the series' sweet spot between action and freedom of choice. Quickstep works like butter and regain promotes aggression without forcing it, thus keeping choices open. Love Sekiro but it's too much Guitar Hero with gimmicks to ignore parts of track if you wish. It works and fits the smaller scope katana-clashing setting well, but If they reuse this concept in the future they better "open it up" in some way.

About DS3... well, this is the real failure in terms of attempting to actionify the gameplay, as it meshed together parts that don't make sense together (fast rolling with little stamina loss), resulting in retardo design. If they wanted fast dodge they should go with BB stylish quick step, and if they wanted rolls they should have kept it awkward and costly like in DeS/DS1. That said, DS3 is worth it for some bosses and the closure it gives to the series lore, which is well done let's admit. But the overall experience pales in comparison to the behemoths that are DeS, DS1 and BB.

 

[cvv]

If they wanted fast dodge they should go with BB stylish quick step, and if they wanted rolls they should have kept it awkward and costly like in DeS/DS1.

This. There were also tons of other half-assed features but whatever.

Also DS3 is probably, kindda worth it for both the DLCs. The combat is still stupid but at least the level design is by FromSoft again instead of some third rate Chink contractor.

 

[Silva]

If they wanted fast dodge they should go with BB stylish quick step, and if they wanted rolls they should have kept it awkward and costly like in DeS/DS1.

This. There were also tons of other half-assed features but whatever.

Notice it's not retarded only from a aesthetic POV: I don't remember other entry in the series where you can just roll and roll gratuitously like in DS3. It makes the kinda humanoid duels I love so much in BB and Sekiro look pathetic, with people barrel rolling like mad. I dropped PvP in disgust when I realized this.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

I just bought DS3 Deluxe for $12.71 on sale at GreenManGaming. Seems worth it.

 

[toro]

If they wanted fast dodge they should go with BB stylish quick step, and if they wanted rolls they should have kept it awkward and costly like in DeS/DS1.

This. There were also tons of other half-assed features but whatever.

Notice it's not retarded only from a aesthetic POV: I don't remember other entry in the series where you can just roll and roll gratuitously like in DS3. It makes the kinda humanoid duels I love so much in BB and Sekiro look pathetic, with people barrel rolling like mad. I dropped PvP in disgust when I realized this.

Tell me more about PvP in BB.

 

[Damned Registrations]

You could absolutely roll like a madman in DeS. You just needed the right gear for it. Stamina grass honestly just makes the whole mechanic shit in every game it's in. It lets people in heavy armor move like they're naked and naked people move like anime characters.

 

[Silva]

Tell me more about PvP in BB.

Come on Toro. BB has free quickstep yes, but its more an action game, there's no load, poise, etc. Everything supports that premise. The experience feels cohesive, and cool. DS3 OTOH has all the trappings of a more realistic/sim experience like DS1 but then behaves like BB. And worst: it keeps barrel rolling which feels bizarre in this faster actiony setup.

You could absolutely roll like a madman in DeS. You just needed the right gear for it.

If you need a combo of gear + items to barrel rolling like mad, then the game by default doesn't allow you barrel rolling like mad. Right?

 

[cvv]

The experience feels cohesive, and cool.

It's too fast, too spammy, too brainless, people have way too many health vials and applying them is way to quick. Plus the bell system is a cop out to invasion whiners. And the build variety is terrible.

I watched heaps of BB playthroughs where streamers who normally seek out PvP in DS games always avoided it like a plague. Watched a battle once - two idiots jumping around like monkeys, spamming the gun parry, jabbing themselves with vials like it's a liquid crack. This went on for like 10 minutes, then one guy just jumped off a cliff. It's a clown show.

 

[Damned Registrations]

If you need a combo of gear + items to barrel rolling like mad, then the game by default doesn't allow you barrel rolling like mad. Right?

So none of them do? You need the right gear to roll spam in any of the games.

 

[Silva]

Damned Registrations , Dark Souls 3 is a barrel rolling fest out of the gate.

It's too fast, too spammy, too brainless, people have way too many health vials and applying them is way to quick. Plus the bell system is a cop out to invasion whiners. And the build variety is terrible.

Cvv, you don't like what BB tries to do. That's fair. But most who appreciate what it tries do finds it amazing. That's the point.

The comparison I'm making is from the POV of those who acknowledges each game design goals and appreciate them all in some measure. From this POV, DS3 design feels the weaker, exactly for trying to mix things from other games that don't fit together.

P.S: You know a game that does something I don't care? Nioh. Shitty levels. Generic story and lore. Diablo-like loot management. The only thing that I like in it are the different weapons and forms. Luckly, For Honor gives me that free from the shitty stuff.

 

[Black Angel]

Bloodborne is equivalent to playing Dark Souls 3 with Straight Swords only.

Tell that to my Dickhammer

 

[toro]

Bloodborne is equivalent to playing Dark Souls 3 with Straight Swords only.

Here, BB "straight sword" entering your mom's ass:

Spoiler

Bloodborne is equivalent to playing Dark Souls 3 with Straight Swords only.

Tell that to my Dickhammer

In Blooodborne the player is encouraged to get close and spam attacks ... exactly like Straight Sword users in DaS3. That was my point but I failed to communicate.

Tell me more about PvP in BB.

Come on Toro. BB has free quickstep yes, but its more an action game, there's no load, poise, etc. Everything supports that premise. The experience feels cohesive, and cool. DS3 OTOH has all the trappings of a more realistic/sim experience like DS1 but then behaves like BB. And worst: it keeps barrel rolling which feels bizarre in this faster actiony setup.

The only difference it that DaS3's PvP is alive while BB's PvP is dead cause it's a unplayable mess. How is this possible when the game's combat is perfect?

As for the rolling comment, BB fights seems to be reduced to a long series of Attack, Quickstep, Attack, Quickstep ... ad nauseam. Next level combat right there. No rolling, just quicksteps

 

[Silva]

Bloodborne is equivalent to playing Dark Souls 3 with Straight Swords only.

Here, BB "straight sword" entering your mom's ass:

Spoiler

Bloodborne is equivalent to playing Dark Souls 3 with Straight Swords only.

Tell that to my Dickhammer

In Blooodborne the player is encouraged to get close and spam attacks ... exactly like Straight Sword users in DaS3. That was my point but I failed to communicate.

By that measure one should say all close-combat weapons in DS work the same, which simply isn't true. Rapier or Estoc plays differently than Katana/Washing pole which play different than Maces/Hammers which play different than Daggers/Knives etc.

What BB does is taking that difference and amplifying them by making each weapon even more unique, due to distinct movesets/speeds/poises/effects/etc. and new forms that each can take. The result is each weapon becoming it's own playstyle, even more than Souls games. Anyone who likes the subtle differences between close-combat weapons in DS will be DELIGHTED by what BB does with this aspect of the game. Except if he's a faggot like you.

 

[Lutte]

>tryhards who care about pvp in a game series which can never become competitive because stupid peer to peer garbage

 

[Black Angel]

Bloodborne is equivalent to playing Dark Souls 3 with Straight Swords only.

Here, BB "straight sword" entering your mom's ass:

Spoiler

Bloodborne is equivalent to playing Dark Souls 3 with Straight Swords only.

Tell that to my Dickhammer

In Blooodborne the player is encouraged to get close and spam attacks ... exactly like Straight Sword users in DaS3. That was my point but I failed to communicate.

On the contrary, it was DS3 which was designed to play like Bloodborne for some reason. BB has always been designed to be more action-oriented and fast-paced, where you're encouraged to emphasize more on going offensive, as you can take from the Rally mechanic and the side-stepping to quickly recover from defensive and resume your offensive quicker. Although, it doesn't stop BB from quickly ending up as a dodge-fest simulator like the Souls games, but still. I don't see how that meaning being encouraged to get close and spam attacks is a 'problem', though I guess that is a problem if you're a PvPfag. I never really cared for PvP in Soulsborne, personally.

 

[Silva]

On the contrary, it was DS3 which was designed to play like Bloodborne for some reason.

Not only gameplay but fluff too. That big wolf in DS3 swamp is the most nonsensic piece of lore in the game.

Edit: Undead Settlement ended up a very good map though, even as a copy&paste from BB's Hemwick lane.

 

[sullynathan]

Souls 3 sold 10 million copies

https://www.bandainamcoent.co.jp/pd...asses 10 Million Units in Sales Worldwide.pdf