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From Software Dark Souls 3

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
750
I finished this game over the last two weeks and had a lot to say about it. Too much, really. Read on if you're interested in my appraisal of the changes to combat, assessment of RPG systems, complaints about level design, and praise for bosses. Disregard if you think Dark Souls 2 was a stain on the franchise (weirdo).

https://rosodudemods.wordpress.com/2020/06/01/dark-souls-iii-a-step-or-many-rolls-to-the-side/

Dark Souls III – A Step (or Many Rolls) to the Side

[...]

Dark Souls 3 is a lateral move from Dark Souls 2, both of which sought to improve upon the first game’s formula in different ways. It succeeds in offering a more mechanically intensive game focused on raw combat, particularly against diverse and challenging bosses, but the game’s environments are often mundane and the paths between them constrain the player’s adventure to a linear sequence. I can see what people value in its focus on polished combat mechanics, but the more deliberate strategic flow of combat in the prior two games endear me more to them, as does the agency the player is given to explore the world and deal with the numerous obstacles within them. Dark Souls 3 is the most polished and mechanically challenging entry in the series, but scraps many of its predecessor’s innovations and borrows heavily from the first Dark Souls for a more stripped down experience. It’s a good effort, though not how I would have personally liked the series to have concluded.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,921
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
I finished this game over the last two weeks and had a lot to say about it. Too much, really. Read on if you're interested in my appraisal of the changes to combat, assessment of RPG systems, complaints about level design, and praise for bosses. Disregard if you think Dark Souls 2 was a stain on the franchise (weirdo).

https://rosodudemods.wordpress.com/2020/06/01/dark-souls-iii-a-step-or-many-rolls-to-the-side/

Dark Souls III – A Step (or Many Rolls) to the Side

[...]

Dark Souls 3 is a lateral move from Dark Souls 2, both of which sought to improve upon the first game’s formula in different ways. It succeeds in offering a more mechanically intensive game focused on raw combat, particularly against diverse and challenging bosses, but the game’s environments are often mundane and the paths between them constrain the player’s adventure to a linear sequence. I can see what people value in its focus on polished combat mechanics, but the more deliberate strategic flow of combat in the prior two games endear me more to them, as does the agency the player is given to explore the world and deal with the numerous obstacles within them. Dark Souls 3 is the most polished and mechanically challenging entry in the series, but scraps many of its predecessor’s innovations and borrows heavily from the first Dark Souls for a more stripped down experience. It’s a good effort, though not how I would have personally liked the series to have concluded.
If you value branching paths then you will probably find Bloodborne the best of the bunch, as it provides both the organic path branching of DS1/3 and a "hub with options" as in DeS/DS2.

Oh, and..

To go along with this general direction for combat, the player’s relationship with stamina has been greatly altered. In DS1, the player could just barely dodge roll 4 times at base stamina; in DS2, the player could dodge roll 3 times; in DS3 they can dodge roll 6 times. I haven’t put the time in to quantify it across the spectrum, but weapon attacks generally seem to cost less stamina as well, and an extremely cursory review of shields suggests that shields take less stamina damage when blocking.
Thanks for this. I knew DS3 went over the board with the dodge-fest but never quantified it like that. You just confirmed my suspicions.

Great review, bro. Shitty levels, great bosses. That's DS3 in a nutshell. :salute:
 
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Melmoth

Educated
Joined
Mar 18, 2012
Messages
82
Thanks for this. I knew DS3 went over the board with the dodge-fest but never quantified it like that. You just confirmed my suspicions.

For Silva's benefit I quantified the number of times you can roll with the lowest endurance start (noble scion) in bloodborne.

Nine (9) times

I also tried quickstepping around the starting werewolf and got ten (10) in.

Fake edit: apparently there's an issue with my methodology because the actual stamina cost of both is 10 and the noble scion has 88 starting stamina (r00fles!). how embarassing. so really you should only get 8 in but i guess this is what happens when you rush in to make a point in the stern grip of ideological fever. a more detailed look here: https://www.bloodborne-wiki.com/2015/10/movement.html
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
750
Thanks, Melmoth . I also suspected BB had the most lax stamina of them all. So it would be, more or less:

DS1: 4 dodges
DS2: 3 dodges
DS3: 6 dodges
BB: 8 dodges

Right?

I actually messed up a little, it should really be 3 dodges in DS1. Just confirmed it in all three games (DS1 3, DS2 3, DS3 6) with the lowest stamina starting classes. I overlooked some details below.

I originally tried to find the stamina cost for rolls in each game and compare them to the lowest starting stamina in each game, but consistent information was difficult to find online so I ended up doing some independent testing and LP sleuthing instead (hence mistakes). The issue is that the 4th dodge I granted DS1 is with an imperceptible sliver of stamina as the Sorcerer, which works in a bit of a weird way. There's actually a short delay in DS1 before you can roll if you don't have the full stamina cost available (but not as long as it would take to recover that much stamina). The highest stamina you can get in DS1 is with the Warrior at 14 END, which still only grants 4 rolls and still features a small (shorter?) delay on the 4th. Meanwhile in DS3, starting as a Warrior with 12 END gives you that extra sliver you need to roll 7 times from full, and it seems like DS3 cheats a little in the opposite direction by allowing even the Thief at 10 END to get away with a barely delayed 7th roll without any stamina available (maybe the regeneration delay is just shorter when you just barely run out of stamina instead of drawing into the negative or something). I think base stamina rolling is still the fairest comparison, but I want to illustrate the general gulf in roll spam between games, which can really be as much as 3 rolls in DS1 vs 7 rolls in DS3 for the highest possible starting stamina in both and excluding any slightly delayed rolls.

To be clear, I don't think this strictly a negative, as DS3 demands more from the player's reactions and roll spam is almost necessary for some bosses, but it's a clear difference in combat philosophy. If you want deliberate combat emphasizing stamina management, you go to DeS/DS1/DS2. If you prefer the challenge to come more from timing with stamina as as secondary concern, you go to DS3/BB. Hence frequent comments that the gameplay of DS3/BB is "faster" in the sense that they require more reaction dodging, even if the moves themselves take about the same amount of time.
 
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Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,290
I get criticism of DS3 when it comes to rolls but BB ? Whole game combat is structured like dance. There is whole mechanic attached to having been hurt and your revenge and game has like one shield in whole game.

Also worth noting is that DS3 bosses are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay harder than DS1 bosses so 3 rolls in DS1 is kind of different thing that 3 rolls in DS3. Moreover some of the bosses in DS3 catch rollers like Friede. And monsters generally spam a lot of attacks.

Eitherway DS3 stamina is too generous true but imho what true problem of DS3 is, is that they switched off proper poise when you are not attacking, so you are forced to use dodge as you can't tank any damage without stun when you don't attack.

Bro, seriously... :lol:
Anyway, all those comparisons always sounded silly to me. DeS, DS1, DS2, Bloodborne, Sekiro....the truth is they're all high quality games. All of them have their own objective strengths and weaknesses,

No one ever said they were bad games. Even me who criticizes DS2 a lot i finished it multiple times and compared to other games i think it is one of the best games ever.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,290
Also DS3 cinders overhaul is moving a lot these days due to new tools being released. Few keys stuff in last 3-4 updates from may and april. Going by earlier patches, they bring a lot of gear from earlier games and even BB. Animations are still the issue but they are working on tools for that.

# General
- DS1/DS2 poise is working
# Character Creation
- Added 7 new hairstyles (thanks to Max).
# Companions
- Added a companion system, where you can summon special NPCs that will follow you about and fight for you.
- To use a companion, you need to find their Incense item, which is used to summon them to your position. This item is reusable, but costs FP.
- You can summon multiple companions at once.
- These are the available companions:
- Solaire of Astora - Solaire's Incense: Warrior of Sunlight
- Lautrec of Carim - Lautrec's Incense: Mimic - Cathedral
- Paladin Leeroy - Leeroy's Incense: Way of White
- Zullie the Witch - Zullie's Incense: Pilgrim of Dark
- Transcendent Edde - Edde's Incense: Dragon Remnants
- Sellsword Luet - Luet's Incense: Treasure - High Wall
- Steelheart Ellie - Ellie's Incense: Treasure - Undead Settlement
- Glaive Master Hodir - Hodir's Incense: Mimic - Ringed City
- Iron Knight Tarkus - Tarkus's Incense: Treasure - Catacombs of Carthus
- Havel the Rock - Havel's Incense: Treasure - Archdragon Peak
# Armor
- Added Smelter Demon Set.
- Added Rampart Golem Set.
- Added Heide Knight Set.
- Added Bone Ash Set.
- Added Imperious Set. Sold by the Shrine Handmaid after killing Yhorm the Giant.
- Added Pygmy Crown. Sold by the Shrine Handmaid after killing the Slave Knight Gael.
- Added Deserter Helm. Found in High Wall.
- Added Raven Mask. Found in Consumed King's Garden.
- Added Imperial Samurai Helm.
- Added Horned Samurai Helm.
- Added Ornate Samurai Helm.
- Added Mask of Horror. Unlocked by the Easterner's Ashes at the Shrine Handmaid.
- Added Mask of Cruelty. Unlocked by the Easterner's Ashes at the Shrine Handmaid.
- Added Mask of Serenity. Unlocked by the Easterner's Ashes at the Shrine Handmaid.
- Added Mask of War. Unlocked by the Easterner's Ashes at the Shrine Handmaid.
- Added Pot.
- Added Crown of Filianore.
- Added Crown of the Holy King. Sold by the Shrine Handmaid after killing the Twin Princes.
- Added Old Demon's King Crown. Sold by the Shrine Handmaid after killing the Old Demon King.
- Added Basilisk Cap. Found in Road of Sacrifices.
- Added Poisonhorn Cap. Found in Road of Sacrifices.
- Added Black Metal Hat. Found in Profaned Capital.
- Added Tan Straw Hat. Found in Undead Settlement.
- Added Carthus Blindfold. Found in Catacombs of Carthus.
- Added Mask of Sin. Found in Profaned Capital.
- Added Vagabond Cowl. Found in the Ringed City.
- Added Hollow Head. Found in Firelink Shrine.
- Added Crown of Illusions. Found in the Grand Archives.
- Added Courtier Set. Found in the Grand Archives.
- Added Mirror Knight Set. Found in the Grand Archives.
- Added Steel Set. Found in Irithyll Dungeon.
- Added Syan Knight Set. Found in Profaned Capital.
Added the Forlorn Set: dropped by the Forlorn in Road of Sacrifices.
- Added the Jester Set: dropped by Fester the Jester in Profaned Capital.
- Added the Gold-hemmed Black Set: found near the wooden bridge in Catacombs of Carthus.
- Added the Royal Soldier Set: found in the Dreg Heap, in the area below the first angel in the Earthern Peak section.
- Added the Loyce Set: found in Ariandel, at the end of the Depths of the Painting section.
- Added the Charred Loyce Set: found in the Smouldering Lake, in the Old Demon King's arena after the Old Demon King is killed.
- Added Black Stag Helm: dropped by Silver Knight Ledo.
- Added Golem Set: sold by Domhnall of Zena.


# Enemies
- Added Blacksmith's Nightmare in Untended Graves. Drops Smelter Demon Set.
- Added Ashen Keeper Sofija in Untended Graves. Drops Bone Ash Set.
- Added Frozen Knight Torbjorn in Ariandel. Drops Rampart Golem Set.
- Added Wandering Knight Osvaldo in Road of Sacrifices. Drops Heide Knight Set.
- Added Bewitched Knight Iwai in Profaned Capital. Drops Alonne's Set.
- Added Lord Takatsuji in Profaned Capital. Drops Imperial Samurai Helm.
- Added Lieutenant Ugali in Profaned Capital. Drops Horned Samurai Helm.
- Added Lieutenant Hanji in Profaned Capital. Drops Ornate Samurai Helm.
- Added Hallowed Knight Orthell in the Cathedral of the Deep. Drops the Hallowed Knight Set.
- Added Dragon Hunter Karstark in Archdragon Peak. Drops the Drakekeeper Set.
- Added Disciple of Alsanna in Ariandel. Drops the Ivory King Set.
- Added The Prowler in the Dreg Heap. Drops the Mad Warrior Set.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,921
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
I get criticism of DS3 when it comes to rolls but BB ? Whole game combat is structured like dance. There is whole mechanic attached to having been hurt and your revenge and game has like one shield in whole game.
Stop lying, you never played BB. :lol:

But I agree. BB aims for a different experience and so the fast dodge makes sense in it.
 

Momock

Augur
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
666
DS2 is pretty bad in this respect. I avoided summoning NPCs precisely because i wanted to experience the bosses by myself, as it should be, but it seems by doing that i missed out on a lot of NPC characterizations. It was kind of jarring talking to NPCs as if we did something together where we didn't do anything. It feels i "missed out" on something even if it was just some brief character interaction.
By not summoning NPCs, you don't miss out just on some brief interactions: you completely skip their quests, endings and item rewards included.

Right. So i have to decide whether i want to trivialize some of the content of the game for the sake of those perks and rewards. I find this idea bothersome.
I don't know... for me summoning NPCs is not the same as summoning players. They are part of the quests, of the game, that's not "cheating" like summoning another player.
It would be like saying that recruiting other characters for your party in RPGs is "cheating".
 

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
Patron
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
7,587
Location
Pronouns: rusts/rusty
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
DS2 is pretty bad in this respect. I avoided summoning NPCs precisely because i wanted to experience the bosses by myself, as it should be, but it seems by doing that i missed out on a lot of NPC characterizations. It was kind of jarring talking to NPCs as if we did something together where we didn't do anything. It feels i "missed out" on something even if it was just some brief character interaction.
By not summoning NPCs, you don't miss out just on some brief interactions: you completely skip their quests, endings and item rewards included.

Right. So i have to decide whether i want to trivialize some of the content of the game for the sake of those perks and rewards. I find this idea bothersome.
I don't know... for me summoning NPCs is not the same as summoning players. They are part of the quests, of the game, that's not "cheating" like summoning another player.
It would be like saying that recruiting other characters for your party in RPGs is "cheating".
Usually RPGs that allows the recruitment of other characters are balanced around the fact that you can recruit other characters. Dark Souls bosses, however, have very simple AIs that never know how to handle multiple opponents. I'm not saying that it's cheating (but I don't think that summoning other players is cheating either), but a lot of people play these game for the challenge they offer and by summoning NPCs you (most of the times) make things easier for yourself.
 

Anthedon

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 1, 2015
Messages
4,799
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Also DS3 cinders overhaul is moving a lot these days due to new tools being released. Few keys stuff in last 3-4 updates from may and april. Going by earlier patches, they bring a lot of gear from earlier games and even BB. Animations are still the issue but they are working on tools for that.

# General
- DS1/DS2 poise is working
# Character Creation
- Added 7 new hairstyles (thanks to Max).
# Companions
- Added a companion system, where you can summon special NPCs that will follow you about and fight for you.
- To use a companion, you need to find their Incense item, which is used to summon them to your position. This item is reusable, but costs FP.
- You can summon multiple companions at once.
- These are the available companions:
- Solaire of Astora - Solaire's Incense: Warrior of Sunlight
- Lautrec of Carim - Lautrec's Incense: Mimic - Cathedral
- Paladin Leeroy - Leeroy's Incense: Way of White
- Zullie the Witch - Zullie's Incense: Pilgrim of Dark
- Transcendent Edde - Edde's Incense: Dragon Remnants
- Sellsword Luet - Luet's Incense: Treasure - High Wall
- Steelheart Ellie - Ellie's Incense: Treasure - Undead Settlement
- Glaive Master Hodir - Hodir's Incense: Mimic - Ringed City
- Iron Knight Tarkus - Tarkus's Incense: Treasure - Catacombs of Carthus
- Havel the Rock - Havel's Incense: Treasure - Archdragon Peak
# Armor
- Added Smelter Demon Set.
- Added Rampart Golem Set.
- Added Heide Knight Set.
- Added Bone Ash Set.
- Added Imperious Set. Sold by the Shrine Handmaid after killing Yhorm the Giant.
- Added Pygmy Crown. Sold by the Shrine Handmaid after killing the Slave Knight Gael.
- Added Deserter Helm. Found in High Wall.
- Added Raven Mask. Found in Consumed King's Garden.
- Added Imperial Samurai Helm.
- Added Horned Samurai Helm.
- Added Ornate Samurai Helm.
- Added Mask of Horror. Unlocked by the Easterner's Ashes at the Shrine Handmaid.
- Added Mask of Cruelty. Unlocked by the Easterner's Ashes at the Shrine Handmaid.
- Added Mask of Serenity. Unlocked by the Easterner's Ashes at the Shrine Handmaid.
- Added Mask of War. Unlocked by the Easterner's Ashes at the Shrine Handmaid.
- Added Pot.
- Added Crown of Filianore.
- Added Crown of the Holy King. Sold by the Shrine Handmaid after killing the Twin Princes.
- Added Old Demon's King Crown. Sold by the Shrine Handmaid after killing the Old Demon King.
- Added Basilisk Cap. Found in Road of Sacrifices.
- Added Poisonhorn Cap. Found in Road of Sacrifices.
- Added Black Metal Hat. Found in Profaned Capital.
- Added Tan Straw Hat. Found in Undead Settlement.
- Added Carthus Blindfold. Found in Catacombs of Carthus.
- Added Mask of Sin. Found in Profaned Capital.
- Added Vagabond Cowl. Found in the Ringed City.
- Added Hollow Head. Found in Firelink Shrine.
- Added Crown of Illusions. Found in the Grand Archives.
- Added Courtier Set. Found in the Grand Archives.
- Added Mirror Knight Set. Found in the Grand Archives.
- Added Steel Set. Found in Irithyll Dungeon.
- Added Syan Knight Set. Found in Profaned Capital.
Added the Forlorn Set: dropped by the Forlorn in Road of Sacrifices.
- Added the Jester Set: dropped by Fester the Jester in Profaned Capital.
- Added the Gold-hemmed Black Set: found near the wooden bridge in Catacombs of Carthus.
- Added the Royal Soldier Set: found in the Dreg Heap, in the area below the first angel in the Earthern Peak section.
- Added the Loyce Set: found in Ariandel, at the end of the Depths of the Painting section.
- Added the Charred Loyce Set: found in the Smouldering Lake, in the Old Demon King's arena after the Old Demon King is killed.
- Added Black Stag Helm: dropped by Silver Knight Ledo.
- Added Golem Set: sold by Domhnall of Zena.


# Enemies
- Added Blacksmith's Nightmare in Untended Graves. Drops Smelter Demon Set.
- Added Ashen Keeper Sofija in Untended Graves. Drops Bone Ash Set.
- Added Frozen Knight Torbjorn in Ariandel. Drops Rampart Golem Set.
- Added Wandering Knight Osvaldo in Road of Sacrifices. Drops Heide Knight Set.
- Added Bewitched Knight Iwai in Profaned Capital. Drops Alonne's Set.
- Added Lord Takatsuji in Profaned Capital. Drops Imperial Samurai Helm.
- Added Lieutenant Ugali in Profaned Capital. Drops Horned Samurai Helm.
- Added Lieutenant Hanji in Profaned Capital. Drops Ornate Samurai Helm.
- Added Hallowed Knight Orthell in the Cathedral of the Deep. Drops the Hallowed Knight Set.
- Added Dragon Hunter Karstark in Archdragon Peak. Drops the Drakekeeper Set.
- Added Disciple of Alsanna in Ariandel. Drops the Ivory King Set.
- Added The Prowler in the Dreg Heap. Drops the Mad Warrior Set.

Is Cinders actually good or just typical modder autism?
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,290
Is Cinders actually good or just typical modder autism?

Depends what you like. If you like building and want shitload of loot. Then it is great. If you are storyfag probably not for you. I finished DS3 like 7-8 times so i care not for story consistency but Cinders isn't really bad in that aspect.

Playing it just for revised enemy spawns is imho worth it. And they fixed magic/bows so you can actually make only magic build instead of mix like in vanilla DS3. There is poise so you can play heavy like in DS1/2 etc.

And shitload of loot, speels etc. Boss replay in same game, additional NPcs and player like enemies, set items, new bosses with their own souls to transform into gear etc. To many things to count.

How do invasions worth with Mods? Can you still do multiplayer?
Also, I thought Namco really hates modders and soft bans people who mod the game.

You get softban if you play with mods and you play then with cheaters and other modders. I don't really care about multi and i am softbanned because i played with my friend with Cinders a while ago. You can't get unbanned without writting to namco and this is also not 100% sure way.

By default .ini file has "blockonline = true" so unless you want it won't connect to offical servers.

Co-op works great though fighting invasions is usually weird. Either they kill you or you kill them easily never anything in between.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
DS1 actually had much better timing elements than DS3. You could learn enemy patterns, and time your parries/dodges like a pro. DS3, they speficially fuck with you on purpose by having things like parry initialization frames, and alternating enemy attacks between very fast and very slow, so roll spam becomes almost a necessity. Sure, some bosses punish you for that, but there is almost no other way to play.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
750
DS1 actually had much better timing elements than DS3. You could learn enemy patterns, and time your parries/dodges like a pro. DS3, they speficially fuck with you on purpose by having things like parry initialization frames, and alternating enemy attacks between very fast and very slow, so roll spam becomes almost a necessity. Sure, some bosses punish you for that, but there is almost no other way to play.

:roll:

Parrying in DS1 is a joke. I was worse at it than I should have been because I treated it as if there were startup frames rather than simply parrying everything on reaction, so I'd frequently parry too early. I recently went back to try it again and it's braindead.

Startup frames are important for something like parrying because it requires a greater degree of prediction and internalization of the the enemy's move timings. If you can press the button a hair before you're about to get hit, then the parry window is just a slightly shorter dodge window with a much bigger reward (obviously there's a further difference in that a mistimed dodge still moves you out of the way while a failed parry leaves you vulnerable). If there's a windup, however, then you have to know which attacks come out fast and which come out slow, and are rewarded for fully reading your opponent's actions rather than reflexive timing which isn't much harder than dodging. We still have the problem that parrying is a timing minigame that removes all of DS2's tactical considerations for a successful riposte, but it's much better balanced than DS1.

The variation in attack timing is gud. Adapt and git gud yourself, or admit you just don't like the mechanical timing challenge on offer. I prefer the prior games' style of combat too, but it's not like DS3 is "unfair" -- it just demands more from the player in a specific domain. Better timing elements, worse strategic elements.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
It's not git gud, it's just reflexes. And parry delay frames are stupid because games that had that, like DS2 and DS3, both had alternating slow/fast attacks, so unless you have great reflexes/are in 20s, it's just a guessing game, which is stupid.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
750
Forming muscle memory and instinctual reflexes = git gud. And parrying in DS2/DS3 is not pure guesswork. It's called reading enemy tells. Knowing which strings of attacks you can reliably parry and which you need to block or dodge. Moment to moment decisions, instead of parrying being the same as dodging but slightly riskier with a much higher reward. If I want guaranteed damage and invulnerability, I should have to know my enemy well enough to predict their attack timings. I spent an hour practicing on the Pontiff Knights because I was having trouble with exactly this, and it's a fair challenge in line with the reward for canceling out their high aggression and dogged persistence.

I will say though that there is a problem with the parry mechanic in DS3. In DS1 there were partial parry frames after the active parry frames where you would basically block the attack instead of parrying (but lose heath/stamina), and it even worked with unblockable attacks and projectiles. Proper partial parries return in DS3, but it seems like they're buggy and bleed over into the active frames. Sometimes you'll successfully parry an attack but take health/stamina damage anyway, which defeats the whole point. This doesn't seem related to timing, as there were some Pontiff Knight attacks that would deal damage through a parry no matter how many times I tested.

 

Lutte

Dumbfuck!
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Messages
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DU's mom
Thanks, Melmoth . I also suspected BB had the most lax stamina of them all. So it would be, more or less:

DS1: 4 dodges
DS2: 3 dodges
DS3: 6 dodges
BB: 8 dodges

Right?
BB allows a lot of dodging in a row but that's more to help casual than a necessity of the gameplay mechanics IMHO.

There's a ton of fights where you would be better off doing hits and run, parry or stunlock (by attacking the right enemy part with heavy attacks or the right weapon/damage type) than just mindlessly doing r1/dodge/dodge/r1/r1/dodge/dodge.
For eg staying away and doing run-attack on the spear hitting paarl on the head :


Staying away from amygdala and baiting the right attacks instead of sticking to its face and dodging like a spastic epileptic :

Almost no dodging involved.

Chain parrying gascoigne.

360 no dodge

There's what I would call The Right Tactic for almost all bosses and enemies in the game. IMHO BB felt far less spammy to play than DS3. Parrying in particular is so easy and forgiving in this game that anything that is parryable should indeed be chain parried. And what I've noticed is that things you can't easily chain-parry-critical tend to be more prone to stunlocking or spacing.

For better or worse depending on how you perceive difficulty's importance in a From game, I felt BB (main game, I did not play the DLC) was significantly easier than DS3 because of how powerful you really are once you embrace the game mechanics and don't play it like just another souls game. Funnily enough, the only boss that killed me a number of times I would have been ashamed to even count was Father Gascoigne, one of the first two bosses of the game while I was still not really "getting it". There was a time during these repeat fights where I was wondering if I could even finish the game if the second boss I meet is like that. But Gascoigne was like the sole peak of the world after which everything is a deeper cliff into the abyss. And one of the reasons was that I wasn't eased into the parrying system yet and didn't even try in the first attempts.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,921
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Lutte , you're not wrong in your assessment but I think you're underestimating those YT players skills. The kind of spatial awareness they show by avoiding attacks by slowly side walking without dodging is akin to those sick Lv4 no-kill YT playthroughs. Also, anyone cold as that guy facing Defiled Amygdala knowing he can be one-shot is far from your average competent player. I have half a thousand hours into BB and lack such a cold blood.

Also, you should play the DLC before having a conclusion about BB difficult. As is notorious with From, base game bosses are easier than DLC ones. Orphan of Kos, Ludwig, Laurence and Shark Brothers may well change your opinion on the matter.

Edit: coming from Sekiro, it strikes at me that BB seems to have the best balance between cutting out bullshit approaches that trivialize the game (like ultra heavy swords and shields) and leaving just enough room to approach fights in different ways. DS1/2/3 pendulate too much to the bullshit side, while Sekiro pendulate too much to a one-wayist "you must fight the way I want!" side. (not a bash at any game BTW, love the series as a whole)
 
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NJClaw

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Lutte , you're not wrong in your assessment but I think you're underestimating those YT players skills. The kind of spatial awareness they show by avoiding attacks by slowly side walking without dodging is akin to those sick Lv4 no-kill YT playthroughs. Also, anyone cold as that guy facing Defiled Amygdala knowing he can be one-shot is far from your average competent player. I have half a thousand hours into BB and don't have such skill and cold blood.

Also, I think you should play the DLC before having a conclusion about BB difficult. As is notorious with From, base game bosses are easier than DLC ones. Orphan of Kos, Ludwig, Laurence and Shark Brothers may well change your opinion on the matter.
Bloodborne DLC bosses really aren't that difficult on NG. Ludwig has two problematic attacks in his first phase (the jump and the charge, both capable of one-shotting even at full health), but if you manage to survive those with a lucky random roll, his other moves aren't dangerous and are easy to avoid. His second phase is a joke: his attacks are extremely predictable and you can die only if you get by the very long charged magic attack.

Laurence isn't any different from the Cleric Beast and you can completely skip his second phase with the cannon.

The Orphan is the only one out of the three that can be considered a true challenge even on NG, because, even if his attacks won't one-shot you, he is almost too quick even for a Bloodborne boss.

On subsequent playthroughs it's a completely different story, because all of them have obscene amount of HP and their damage is insane. Laurence is a nightmare: he never goes down and during his second phase you can't miss a single roll or you are fucked.
 

Silva

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Lutte , you're not wrong in your assessment but I think you're underestimating those YT players skills. The kind of spatial awareness they show by avoiding attacks by slowly side walking without dodging is akin to those sick Lv4 no-kill YT playthroughs. Also, anyone cold as that guy facing Defiled Amygdala knowing he can be one-shot is far from your average competent player. I have half a thousand hours into BB and don't have such skill and cold blood.

Also, I think you should play the DLC before having a conclusion about BB difficult. As is notorious with From, base game bosses are easier than DLC ones. Orphan of Kos, Ludwig, Laurence and Shark Brothers may well change your opinion on the matter.
Bloodborne DLC bosses really aren't that difficult on NG. Ludwig has two problematic attacks in his first phase (the jump and the charge, both capable of one-shotting even at full health), but if you manage to survive those with a lucky random roll, his other moves aren't dangerous and are easy to avoid. His second phase is a joke: his attacks are extremely predictable and you can die only if you get by the very long charged magic attack.

Laurence isn't any different from the Cleric Beast and you can completely skip his second phase with the cannon.

The Orphan is the only one out of the three that can be considered a true challenge even on NG, because, even if his attacks won't one-shot you, he is almost too quick even for a Bloodborne boss.

On subsequent playthroughs it's a completely different story, because all of them have obscene amount of HP and their damage is insane. Laurence is a nightmare: he never goes down and during his second phase you can't miss a single roll or you are fucked.
Ludwig is not hard once you grok his moveset but he is tricky due to it's one-shot moves. And that's assuming previous knowledge. For someone new to the DLC he may well make player waste a dozen or so tries until handled.

About Laurence: the cannon is not a common weapon due to very high Str reqs, so I don't consider it something the average player can rely on except if he planned for in advance. This means lots of players will find the nightmare you cite for NG+ in normal plauthrough. I find him harder than Orphan, honestly (and I find Orphan hard already).

And you missed the Shark Brothers. Possibly most difficult non-boss encounter in the entire series (Outrider Knight in Lothric castle being the other, I think).
 

NJClaw

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Lutte , you're not wrong in your assessment but I think you're underestimating those YT players skills. The kind of spatial awareness they show by avoiding attacks by slowly side walking without dodging is akin to those sick Lv4 no-kill YT playthroughs. Also, anyone cold as that guy facing Defiled Amygdala knowing he can be one-shot is far from your average competent player. I have half a thousand hours into BB and don't have such skill and cold blood.

Also, I think you should play the DLC before having a conclusion about BB difficult. As is notorious with From, base game bosses are easier than DLC ones. Orphan of Kos, Ludwig, Laurence and Shark Brothers may well change your opinion on the matter.
Bloodborne DLC bosses really aren't that difficult on NG. Ludwig has two problematic attacks in his first phase (the jump and the charge, both capable of one-shotting even at full health), but if you manage to survive those with a lucky random roll, his other moves aren't dangerous and are easy to avoid. His second phase is a joke: his attacks are extremely predictable and you can die only if you get by the very long charged magic attack.

Laurence isn't any different from the Cleric Beast and you can completely skip his second phase with the cannon.

The Orphan is the only one out of the three that can be considered a true challenge even on NG, because, even if his attacks won't one-shot you, he is almost too quick even for a Bloodborne boss.

On subsequent playthroughs it's a completely different story, because all of them have obscene amount of HP and their damage is insane. Laurence is a nightmare: he never goes down and during his second phase you can't miss a single roll or you are fucked.
Ludwig is not hard once you grok his moveset but he is tricky due to it's one-shot moves. And that's assuming previous knowledge. For someone new to the DLC he may well make player waste a dozen or so tries until handled.

About Laurence: the cannon is not a common weapon due to very high Str reqs, so I don't consider it something the average player can rely on except if he planned for in advance. This means lots of players will find the nightmare you cite for NG+ in normal plauthrough. I find him harder than Orphan, honestly (and I find Orphan hard already).

And you missed the Shark Brothers. Possibly most difficult non-boss encounter in the entire series (Outrider Knight in Lothric castle being the other, I think).
I purposely ignored the Shark Brothers because they are legit nightmare material. To me, they are worse than Ludwig, Laurence and Orphan. I'm working (actually I was, because I haven't been playing since the lockdown) on a no-death 100% run and they are the second worst obstacle (the first one being the chalice Amygdala). I can reliably kill Ludwig, Orphan and Laurence without dying, but I still have problems with those two. I know they can be cheated, but that wouldn't feel like a 100% run.
 

Silva

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I purposely ignored the Shark Brothers because they are legit nightmare material. To me, they are worse than Ludwig, Laurence and Orphan. I'm working (actually I was, because I haven't been playing since the lockdown) on a no-death 100% run and they are the second worst obstacle (the first one being the chalice Amygdala). I can reliably kill Ludwig, Orphan and Laurence without dying, but I still have problems with those two. I know they can be cheated, but that wouldn't feel like a 100% run.
Woah you're chineze compared to me, then. No way I can finish it without dying a couple times for these bosses. And I killed Shark Bros just a single time in my whole life.

Out of curiosity: can you handle that Outrider in Lothric easily? I also crap my paints everytime I have to face it. You know, that time you make a pause, take a deep breath, and "Ok, let's go" (and usually die Lol).
 

Lutte

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Lutte , you're not wrong in your assessment but I think you're underestimating those YT players skills.
Wat? I'm randomly looking up vids with keywords for things I've done myself. It's not that hard. If my internet upload speed wasn't so shit I'd record and upload some stuff too.

Also, you should play the DLC before having a conclusion about BB difficult.

Brah, I don't own a ps4. I played BB on psnow, latency and all. No DLC on psnow unless something changed. Also, I'm making the comparison with BB vs DS3 main game in mind, I'm not comparing BB to DS3 dlc which also had ramped up endurance fighting quite a bit. DS3 was significantly more a pain in the ass for me and I played it on a local computer unlike BB.
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btw this is why I can't take people seriously when they act like latency makes these platforms unplayable. I completed the fucking game.

Souls games aren't as nearly sensitive as arcade games and other genuinely difficult games. I wouldn't play Ketsui on streaming. Bloodborne wasn't even that bad.
 
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