From Software Dark Souls 3

[Gentle Player]

so you want the DeS spell system, but the DeS spell system has no bearing on the types of spells that you want to see... you sound confused

No, I don't particularly care. I actually prefer Vancian systems. I already admitted that I was wrong to conflate potential spell variety with a DeS mana based system. I am quite happy to admit to having posted things which are wrong or foolish - what more do you want from me? To leave the Codex in disgrace?

well duh, that's what everybody wants and everybody with at least 2 functioning neurons was saying at least since DaS1.

So we're in almost complete agreement then. That's pretty much what I wanted to convey with my first post, but it was poorly written and made while arseholed (as are many of my posts, perhaps to nobody's surprise). There's only one minuscule thing we disagree on, something that's nothing more then a personal preference of mine which I thought I had clarified in my second post: I like the fact that there were separate slots for Magic and Miracles, and thus in theory greater considerations to be made for stat allocation. A theory which, of course, did not bear out in DeS because, as everybody agrees, the same old spells dominated those slots on almost all builds. You keep mentioning that imbalance in DeS, but I am looking to the potential of DS3 which need not have the overpowered spells of DeS nor the (as you yourself admit) relatively useless low level DS1 spells. As for DS1, you write...

seriously dude, what the fuck. there's quite the variety of [relatively useless] spells with relatively low requirements in DaS1. you can make a Dex build with 50Vit and 40End [i.e. both the soft caps] and have enough points left over for 4 spell slots and 16-18 in both int and fth to access most of those spells and still be at 125 or under (a grand total of ~26 pts of investment to have

...which is true enough, but they would be sub-par and pointless builds considering there are only two Weapon Slots per hand, no Talisman of Beasts or Black Staff-esque Spell Tool, and the existence of Pyromancy which needs only a few points in Attunement and can operate at full power, using powerful spells like Combustion and Black Flame, for nearly any build. That's why I mentioned Pyromancy in my first post.

As for DSII, which I neglected to mention, the addition of Hexing and the generally improved mechanics did allow for greater build considerations, true. As you said...

like the hex utility spells that have often absurdly high requirements and would definitely add to both PvP and PvE if they were easier to obtain and use)

...that's something I'd like to see improved on for DS3.

so DeS was special (obviously implied "better" here)

No. I've already apologised for suggesting that DeS style mechanics would necessarily improve DS3's magic system. There's one element of DeS which I think could potentially improve build variety in DS3, but as I said above it's a minor personal preference and I am probably overstating its case. Overall, though I adore all Souls games, DeS is actually my least favourite due to abandoning flasks and the inter-connected world.

So, yes. The aggressive zeal with which you've chain-quoted my posts on a rather boring issue in which it seems we almost agree is... well, fascinating is one way to put it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're as drunk as I am when you post!

 

[Caconym]

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

Vaati is the new rickroll. You never expect it and you're immideately annoyed when you hear it

 

[toro]

Vaati is the new rickroll. You never expect it and you're immideately annoyed when you hear it

Indeed. Repeating ad nauseam that 'everything is like in DaS 1' might actually work in the end. He is just a sad apparatchik shilling for From Sw.

 

[Morgoth]

He's taking his waifu game way too seriously.

 

[Eyestabber]

3:55 -> player chugs estus in front of an enemy that already started his attack animation. Estus is chugged fast enough for him to roll to the left and avoid the attack.

5:00 -> wild speculation with no source

Also, what he said about parrying shield + weapon arts shield implies that you can no longer parry with a medium shield.

BTW, why the edgyness against Vaati? Shill or no, the footage DOES look like DaS1.

 

[Ivan]

many early game enemies have really long wind-up attacks

 

[GrainWetski]

many early game enemies have really long wind-up attacks

Doesn't change the fact that Estus drinking is nearly instant now and that you would get punished for doing that in DS1.

The game will be stupidly easy if they don't change it.

 

[Hobo Elf]

It was possible to face tank pretty much everything in DaS1 if you had good armor and poise so the slow chug animation wasn't really an issue, ever.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Well, that presumes you knew those things. If you had a medium level of armor like pretty much anyone new to the game, the animation was a big fucking deal.

 

[Hobo Elf]

So you're saying that no one used heavy armor on their first time because..? That's a pretty broad and fucked up statement m8. And even if it was true (it isn't), it still doesn't take away the fact that it can be done and it is extremely easy to do it. The Knight and Soldier classes are by and far some of the most popular starter classes for new players and their armor is miles ahead of the simple clothes most of the other classes have. They won't grant you the same face tanking abilities that something like Black Iron armor does, but they do mitigate a significant amount of damage. Now chugging Blood Vials in Bloodborne is nearly instant, but that sure as hell doesn't make the game any easier due to how aggressive the enemies are. Despite the fact that using Vials is fast, Bloodborne still manages to be the hardest game in the series.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Armour generally does jack shit unless it's against enemies too trivial to matter, or you have an obscene amount, which you only get from suits like havel, stone or black iron. Knight armour might be enough to avoid being staggered by dogs or the weakest hollows, but it's not going to let you face tank and chug estus while the capra demon or a black knight wails on you. You need to be min-maxing your build to do shit like that, along with having a well upgraded flask and kindled bonfire. All the difficult fights where you'd actually need to chug estus during an attack hit hard enough to make common armours garbage. If you're being attacked by something so weak knight armour lets you chug estus through it, you could have just taken the hit and chugged after anyways, even while naked. About the only exception in the whole game are the bone wheel skeletons, which are almost universally hated precisely because almost nobody was walking around like a tank when they encountered them.

 

[GrainWetski]

Despite the fact that using Vials is fast, Bloodborne still manages to be the hardest game in the series.

It does? Personally, I find it to be the easiest one(not talking about playing the games while knowing every nook and cranny there is). Also by far the least interesting, gameplay wise.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Armour generally does jack shit unless it's against enemies too trivial to matter, or you have an obscene amount, which you only get from suits like havel, stone or black iron. Knight armour might be enough to avoid being staggered by dogs or the weakest hollows, but it's not going to let you face tank and chug estus while the capra demon or a black knight wails on you. You need to be min-maxing your build to do shit like that, along with having a well upgraded flask and kindled bonfire. All the difficult fights where you'd actually need to chug estus during an attack hit hard enough to make common armours garbage. If you're being attacked by something so weak knight armour lets you chug estus through it, you could have just taken the hit and chugged after anyways, even while naked. About the only exception in the whole game are the bone wheel skeletons, which are almost universally hated precisely because almost nobody was walking around like a tank when they encountered them.

Knight Armor will easily let you face tank capra to a point if it's upgraded. Unupgraded you wont facetank capra, but the poise is enough to make a difference so that the doggies wont interrupt your chugging. Same thing vs the dreglings. You are making it seem a lot more complex and difficult than what it actually is, perhaps you don't remember how OP armor was in DaS1 and how plentiful upgrade materials were? It completely trivializes the game. Easiest build is to just take a big 2h weapon and heavy armor, no min/maxing needed, anyone knows how to put points into Vit, End and Str. You'll facetank everything, hit like a truck and easily stagger most enemies (stunlocking Ornstein and Smough was hilarious). The animation speed for how fast/slow you use a healing item has never been an important factor to the difficulty of these games. The real issue has always been the limit on your healing items. If you are shit and keep taking damage and keep wasting healing items, you'll eventually run out and probably die. This is how it is in DaS2 and Bloodborne since armor is kinda useless.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Vit makes far more of a difference than armour does for your ability to tank shit. Easiest build in the game is, by far, dumping points into Vit, getting str to ~16 or so for a shield, and pyromancy. Upgraded shield will let you ignore a boss for 10 times longer than upgraded armour, and unless you're farming leeches for 2 hours after beelining to blight town, materials certainly weren't common enough to casually upgrade all your armour at a useful pace. Lets go over a list of bosses:

Stray Demon. Armour is worthless.
Taurus demon. Armour is worthless.
Moonlight Butterfly. Armour is worthless.
Gargoyles. Armour is worthless.
Capra demon. Armour is useless, aside from poise vs dogs for the first 10 seconds of the fight (wolf ring works well enough, or any medium armour with ~30 poise.)
Quelag. Armour is worthless.
Iron Golem. Armour is worthless.
O&S. Armour is worthless.

With the definition of 'armour' being say, a knight suit at +2.

Sensing a pattern here? You're not going to poise through the attacks of any of those bosses, and the difference in damage taken will be maybe ~25%. Since it's far, far easier to get 25% more hp than 25% more weight allowance, armour is a pretty shitty investment. Not to mention damage output and active defenses (dodging or blocking) is far more important than passive defenses in this game.

Besides, what we were talking about to begin with was 'face tanking attacks while chugging estus'. Which you just can't fucking do without insane amounts of poise in DaS. You'll just get interrupted and need to wait for an opening.

I mean, by all means, prove me wrong. Show me video of someone with ~50 poise getting hit by gargoyles while chugging estus. That shit isn't happening without prior knowledge or severe grinding.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Yeah, that is definitely not true, at all. You can facetank ALL of those boss fights. I wouldn't facetank O&S with Knight Armor anymore though since I would've upgraded to Black Iron armor at that point, which is incredibly easy to find. The only heavy armor that might be a bit obscure to find for a first timer is Stone Armor, but if you have it then it'll be smooth sailing until you get the Black Iron. Otherwise you'll have to make do with Knight Armor, which is still perfectly fine. Upgrade it a few times and you'll mitigate a LOT of damage. Compared to Dark Souls 2 where upgrading heavy armor won't do jack shit since you'll still take 50% of your total health worth of damage per hit no matter what you do in that game. I think you really don't remember just how forgiving upgraded heavy armor is to shit players in DaS1.

Edit: I also remembered that the Wolf Ring is really powerful in DaS1. If you add that on top of your otherwise heavy armor you become unstopable to most attacks.

 

[praetor]

I mean, by all means, prove me wrong. Show me video of someone with ~50 poise getting hit by gargoyles while chugging estus. That shit isn't happening without prior knowledge or severe grinding.

starting knight set (46 poise) is enough to poise through every gargoyle attack that isn't "unpoisable" (new word?) like the overhead smash pancake (afaik, you can't poise through any pancake attack).



you can see here how he gets pancaked every time, but around the 3min mark you see him spamming that longsword and he poises through a thrust attack. afaik, you can also poise through their regular side sweeps. not sure about the tail attack (it throws, so you most likely can't). he's not chugging estus as per your request, but he poised through it

yeah, without prior knowledge you don't even know how much poise is enough, let alone which attacks you can poise through and which not. "without any prior knowledge" is a terrible argument in this case, since you don't know shit in the Souls game without some heavy time investments into experimenting/testing or consulting wikis/forums/whatever (i'm talking here about the minutiae of the mechanics here...). any Souls game you'll play first will be quite difficult

 

[Raghar]

I remember when I discovered that theirs attacks can be blocked by shield. Then after I lost saves I found you can summon when you are not in hollow form... And then it become massively easier than dodging everything and simply massacre them.

 

[Ivan]

I found BB to be much harder than all 3 Souls games mainly due to the fact that you're more fragile and it's easier to get combod. One shots are bullshit though, as is Ebreitus' magic attack.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

 

[Damned Registrations]

I mean, he poised through the one thrust, he also didn't poise through the fire or the punch. And lets be honest, the thrust is by far the least difficult attack to avoid. So... why did he need armour exactly? To poise through like 1 out of 8 or so attacks that can be used on him? What difference would being naked or dressed in leathers or rags have honestly made? He has an upgraded flask, a good shield, blocks most attacks, and kindled the bonfire. Taking like ~30 less damage from melee hits and poising through 1 attack during the entire fight is hardly a glowing endorsement of the armour, and it definitely wasn't an important part of the fight. And this is the best case scenario during the whole game pretty much.

This is no different than people talking about 'LOL just use the drake sword like everyone else!' You're using an example of someone completely prepared for a fight as if it's commonplace. What about the other 95% of players who got there and fought with some shitty 20 poise armour set and 5 charges of +0 estus? I'm thinking if estus was instant those people would have a MUCH easier time winning the fight, since 90% of it is finding openings to chug estus or get a poke in while dodging fire and aerial attacks. If you no longer need the openings for estus and just get free hits instead, the fight is a cakewalk, and so would pretty much every other fight, since finding an opening to heal is pretty much the most difficult thing to do in any of the boss fights in the game.

Having instant use estus is basically like just having massive lifebar extensions instead of needing to heal at all. Do you really think the game would be just as difficult if you just had the extra thousands of hp and never had to heal?

So your argument is that players taking advice from other people in real time, with over 80 poise because someone told them to get the wolf ring first, will eventually beat capra after dying a few times anyways? Wow, my argument has just been destroyed. Truly everyone used armour and it made the game super easy.

 

[Night Goat]

What annoys me about insta-estus is the implications for PVP. I love moving in on my victim as he's chugging an estus flask and beating him down faster than his health regenerates. The flasks in DS2 are an advantage for the host player, but not an insurmountable one. In DS3 though, it seems like the defending player will effectively have a health bar several times the size of the invader's.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

So your argument is that players taking advice from other people in real time, with over 80 poise because someone told them to get the wolf ring first, will eventually beat capra after dying a few times anyways? Wow, my argument has just been destroyed. Truly everyone used armour and it made the game super easy.

No. My intent, rather, was to demonstrate that your assertion of "Poise is only useful against dogs in the Capra Demon" was absolute bullshit. I also feel like this is a good demonstration of just how forgiving the game can be with high poise and defenses. The guy plays like absolute crap, flails around randomly, chugs estus in Capra's face, and still wins handily.

 

[praetor]

Damned Registrations dude, wtf? you asked for vids of people poising through gargoyles attacks. they have some attacks you cannot poise through whatever you have (i think you get pancaked even with 10000 poise through CE), i provided i video of one out of 3 or 4 attacks that can be poise through. what the fuck do you want?

and i already said that your argument about "mah first playthrough without looking up anything online ever for one second" is stupid, but whatever. and i don't disagree that faster healing would make it an easier game (wtf man, i've gone on record multiple times in this thread calling the changed mechanics in DaS3 stupid because they obviously make the game easier, instahealing included). and while the chugging animation does take a bit of time in DaS1, it's pretty fast and the healing effect is in fact near instantaneous.

 

[Damned Registrations]

No. My intent, rather, was to demonstrate that your assertion of "Poise is only useful against dogs in the Capra Demon" was absolute bullshit. I also feel like this is a good demonstration of just how forgiving the game can be with high poise and defenses. The guy plays like absolute crap, flails around randomly, chugs estus in Capra's face, and still wins handily.

But he's only doing that shit because he was TOLD to. Which was my point. Who gives a fuck what people who are being handheld through the game experience? Pretty much the entire playerbase got to that fight with less than 80 poise. For them, instant chugging estus would be a MASSIVE benefit.