Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[Sensuki]

Fair enough.

 

[Sannom]

Avellone defended Parker, and Patrick K Mills, another AP guy, said whoever left that anonymous negative comment was just plain wrong and likely someone with an axe to grind who always hated what they were doing with AP. Avellone also never replaced someone as lead designer because AP never had a lead designer to begin with, just Mitsoda as a creative lead.

Was it Patrick K Mills or Alexander Brandon? I remember the later posting a rather angry post in response to that negative comment.

 

[Roguey]

Was it Patrick K Mills or Alexander Brandon? I remember the later posting a rather angry post in response to that negative comment.

Mills at Something Awful. Unfortunately, the database is still down.

 

[LESS T_T]

A more detailed report from Polygon: http://www.polygon.com/2015/11/16/9746264/fallout-3-van-buren-chris-avellone-nyu-practice-2015

Avellone, whose credits include titles like Fallout, Planescape: Torment and Alpha Protocol, spoke at the annual summit on all matters of game design. His talk detailed how his lifelong interest in games like Dungeons and Dragons and other tabletop RPGs played a part in the design of Fallout 3: Van Buren. His hourlong presentation included a plethora of photos, showing off the unique and detailed binders he created to aid the game's designers, elaborating on such facets of the game as character roles, the bestiary and the areas of exploration.

Some of the notable elements Avellone shared included that your protagonist, an accused criminal, traveled with a team of companions whose decisions affected the other inhabitants of the in-game world. While the game did not offer multiplayer, the player's team would begin to see the ramifications of the other team's decision-making, which was controlled by the game's AI, Avellone explained.

For the purposes of his paper playtest, he had two separate teams of six fellow developers serve as the two sets of characters. Avellone would implement the effects of choices made by each group into the other's gameplay session unbeknownst to them. In that sense, the tabletop version of Fallout 3: Van Buren became a tacitly competitive game in which you were actually fighting against another team to prevent or inflict further damage upon your world.

Details like these were not even the most fascinating or intricately developed. The audience was most taken with an idea Avellone described that allowed each player to choose theme music for their character. In the interest of creating a cinematic experience even without the visuals, Avellone's guidebook asked that players choose a unique soundclip which would add a 50 percent stat bonus to any skill.

The theme music was up to the player to choose, but selecting something from the game itself would offer additional advantages.

Because Fallout 3: Van Buren was to be a cinematic and turn-based game, Avellone said, it lent itself well to the pen and paper format. Cutscenes in the game were largely presented like slides, anyway, meaning they were easy to translate to the book format. Because gameplay was more strategic than about quick action, the patience required of a lengthy sit-down game session also made sense as a playtest method.

Although the project was ultimately canceled, Avellone was able to carry over some of his ideas to a later game: Fallout: New Vegas, which he worked on with Obsidian Entertainment. He was able to salvage his enormous binder of non-playable characters created for the Van Burenprototyping for use in the later game, as well as re-use some of the areas designed for Van Buren's Boulder, Colo. setting — all of which, he noted, were created in the pen and paper format first.

 

[Beastro]

This leaves us with an incoherent character in-universe and a totally disconnected element from our perspective. It largely remained this way for the entirety of the game, Mearwald is the only thing people cite for relevancy, but it was horribly cheap, we didn't actually see our character go mad and Mearwald could just be lying or too insane to realize that he was loony the entire time.

The high point of the game is being told you have superpowered dementia.

 

[Fairfax]

 

[weresheeple]

He is just too scared of offending his SJW friends to write some tasteful rape which is why he makes lame excuses like that.

 

[Lhynn]

If you're lawful, the game forces you to break a promise for no particular reason other than Plot and to go against the law of the Cowled Wizards, for no particular reason than Plot.

Retarded complain, you cant talk him down, its impossible to find reason or common ground with him. you shouldnt have been so retarded to promise something that you werent sure was even possible.
Player agency ends where NPC agency begins, not everyone has to suck your cock and do what you want. It did bother me as well, but not from a defect of the game standpoint, only from realizing that this guy couldnt be reasoned with.
As for the other complain about the guy giving you info "just in case", i dont see whats wrong with that, if he had an agenda of course hed want to give you that info, even if you didnt particularly care for it.

Surprise surprise, cherrypicking-kun.

Awesome burn.

 

[Irenaeus II]

I promise things I'm not sure are even possible all the time.

 

[Immortal]

Player agency ends where NPC agency begins, not everyone has to suck your cock and do what you want.

CnC doesn't mean every SPESHAL scenario you want to happen needs to be supported. Player Agency within the boundaries of the story is what every game should strive for, adapting to a scenario, not whining for manufactured end goals so everyone can be happy, that's why we get BLUE GREEN RED endings.

There doesn't always need to be a solution / option tailored for your specific character. That's just bad story telling.

Witcher 3 did this pretty well.. sometimes you had choice and sometimes you didn't and sometimes the choice you thought you made didn't lead where you wanted. It wasn't out of developer laziness though, it felt organic within that world.

INB4 It's just fantasy.. there's wizards so why not my snowflake plot line?

 

[Roguey]

Retarded complain, you cant talk him down, its impossible to find reason or common ground with him. you shouldnt have been so retarded to promise something that you werent sure was even possible.

I didn't and don't expect an option to talk him down. I'm saying let him be someone else's (specifically the Baldur's Gate authorities and what remains of the Iron Throne) problem

Bioware could have avoided this whole mess by having the final boss fight take place during the big event, rather than pad their playtime with a dumb maze.

As for the other complain about the guy giving you info "just in case", i dont see whats wrong with that, if he had an agenda of course hed want to give you that info, even if you didnt particularly care for it.

Other posters on the Codex have griped in the past whenever Bioware (or some other company) gives you the (false) option of turning down a quest only to give it you anyway. This is no different.

 

[Lhynn]

I didn't and don't expect an option to talk him down. I'm saying let him be someone else's (specifically the Baldur's Gate authorities and what remains of the Iron Throne) problem
Bioware could have avoided this whole mess by having the final boss fight take place during the big event, rather than pad their playtime with a dumb maze.

Well, the way it was framed, either you took care of it or he made a getaway and everything started all over again. Ill agree that it was railroady, but i wont agree to it being exactly a mess.

Other posters on the Codex have griped in the past whenever Bioware (or some other company) gives you the (false) option of turning down a quest only to give it you anyway. This is no different.

Well, yeah, it is very different in the way its framed. Complains about BG last strech being extra railroady have been made before, this is nothing new.
Its not like you got a quest compass and your map started shinning bright red at the point he sent you, it was just some stuff in your journal.

 

[Sensuki]

Yeah it's definitely railroady, but as I was saying I didn't see a problem. Lack of choice, sure. Bad story? No.

Obsidian usually give you choices but in Pillars they railroad you through the trial because plot.

 

[Lhynn]

Well, most games sort of railroad you as the end game approaches, its an accepted practice. Its doing it before that and constantly that its a pain in the ass.

 

[Roguey]

Well, the way it was framed, either you took care of it or he made a getaway and everything started all over again.

He couldn't be able to start again, he had nothing left except a few devoted followers. He was reduced to being a powerful thug.

 

[Lhynn]

Well, the way it was framed, either you took care of it or he made a getaway and everything started all over again.

He couldn't be able to start again, he had nothing left except a few devoted followers. He was reduced to being a powerful thug.

A powerful and clever thug that had already orchestrated a war and easily took control of the most powerful organization in a kingdom, that had control over almost the bandits in the region, both humans and demi humans.
Im fairly certain he could have recovered.

 

[Beastro]

Good thing Rougey wasn't around during WWII or we'd be fighting the Germans and Japs every generation. God forbid we'd finish the job.

 

[Roguey]

Well, the way it was framed, either you took care of it or he made a getaway and everything started all over again.

He couldn't be able to start again, he had nothing left except a few devoted followers. He was reduced to being a powerful thug.

A powerful and clever thug that had already orchestrated a war and easily took control of the most powerful organization in a kingdom, that had control over almost the bandits in the region, both humans and demi humans.
Im fairly certain he could have recovered.

"You have stripped him of any pretense; there is no longer any point in him maintaining his respectable veneer."

 

[Infinitron]

I suppose the logical thing to do would be to wait for the Dukes of Baldur's Gate to get affairs in order and go down there with a platoon of Flaming Fist.

 

[Lhynn]

"You have stripped him of any pretense; there is no longer any point in him maintaining his respectable veneer."

Means youve driven him into a corner, that its the time to strike. You let him go, hell rebuild, hell be impossible to find, and come after you.

I suppose the logical thing to do would be to wait for the Dukes of Baldur's Gate to get affairs in order and go down there with a platoon of Flaming Fist.

Theres a reason he went down there. Theres an army of undead to protect him plus 2 teams of seasoned adventurers.
You bringing some cannon fooder would have only increased loses and given him a chance to escape.

At least this was my interpretation of the situation.

 

[Sensuki]

I also suppose that even though in the game that is the only entrance to the undercity that it's not the only entrance to the Undercity (+Dimension Door etc)

 

[Xeon]

I am pretty sure Sarevok posed no danger at all after the events at the Ducal palace. He was exposed and lost his money source and most of his followers destroyed or exposed as well.

Iron Thron assassins, Shadow Thieves and Harpers were after him also IIRC I think I read in BG2 Irenicus was also after him or something.

 

[Immortal]

Well, the way it was framed, either you took care of it or he made a getaway and everything started all over again.

He couldn't be able to start again, he had nothing left except a few devoted followers. He was reduced to being a powerful thug.

A powerful and clever thug that had already orchestrated a war and easily took control of the most powerful organization in a kingdom, that had control over almost the bandits in the region, both humans and demi humans.
Im fairly certain he could have recovered.

"You have stripped him of any pretense; there is no longer any point in him maintaining his respectable veneer."

Is the final act in BG 1 a bit ham fisted and ambiguous when it comes to player motive? Sure.. but I can't wait for you to play PoE if your really gonna nitpick a game plot this much.

Let's compare notes...

Your brother who is connected to you through his bhaal spawn essence has killed your foster father and hunted you to the ends of the earth sending waves of bounty hunters and orchestrating a war, has finally failed, lost his influence and flees to a underground temple that happens to be behind a maze because fuck you. Now you can either fuck off and let him lick his wounds or finish the job and gain more power by killing the last highlander.

-OR-

Your walking around some ruins in poe and by coincidence Sarevok Thaos is there casting spells and sacrificing some dudes.. and then for some reason you decide to follow him because reasons.. welcome to your player motivation up to the end of act 2.

I mean fuck - Literally the minute you get off the wagon in the prelude of the game your motives are dodgy at best. The game even asks you why your in this province in the first place and the options range from "Revenge... Exploration.. Loldunno".

"You have stripped him of any pretense; there is no longer any point in him maintaining his respectable veneer."

I am pretty sure Sarevok posed no danger at all after the events at the Ducal palace. He was exposed and lost his money source and most of his followers destroyed or exposed as well.

He's a bhaal spawn - One that is much more powerful than you even without money or dopplegangers. Bhaal spawn are driven to kill each other until only one exists and even the ones who don't want to fight or remain neutral will eventually be killed off by the ones who want to attain god hood.

There is literally zero chance he won't come after you again.

 

[Lacrymas]

Your walking around some ruins in poe and by coincidence Sarevok Thaos is there casting spells and sacrificing some dudes.. and then for some reason you decide to follow him because reasons.. welcome to your player motivation up to the end of act 2.

I don't think you decide to follow him at all, I really have no idea what you were supposed to be doing. Sure, you see him obliterate some dudes, but your main goal is still to go to The First Town(tm). Your goal is that though, not your motivation. Your motivation is whatever you picked to tell what's-her-face at the tutorial. Then it gets even weirder in that you have no goal and no motivation from then on, you stumble across plots that you have no tie or interest in and somehow get to Thaos at the end of act 2.

 

[Roguey]

Means youve driven him into a corner, that its the time to strike. You let him go, hell rebuild, hell be impossible to find, and come after you.

No one's going to trust him again once the news gets out.

In the game itself, you can go adventure/rest for days/months/years and he never comes after you, staying in his hidey hole.

Theres a reason he went down there. Theres an army of undead to protect him plus 2 teams of seasoned adventurers.

That group that's not with him is there to kill him. They just try to kill you first because Bioware.