Caves of Qud (ROGUELIKE) - coming December 5th

[Davaris]

I've never understood the appeal of rougeylikes. Playing a randomly generated game with no end? I can't see a purpose to it.

"with no end" ???

Does it even have amulet of yendor or similar end game condition?

You mean Rodney?

No, I meant to ask if the game have any kind of end goal at the current state.

Yendor is Rodney backwards. Its the joke.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

I've never understood the appeal of rougeylikes. Playing a randomly generated game with no end? I can't see a purpose to it.

"with no end" ???

Does it even have amulet of yendor or similar end game condition?

You mean Rodney?

No, I meant to ask if the game have any kind of end goal at the current state.

Yendor is Rodney backwards. Its the joke.

I know, but I don't see how It's relevant to whether the game has a win condition yet or not.

 

[Davaris]

With these games the players mention the same features as selling points. A new world each game, and each world so big you couldn't visit every place in your life time. A couple of these games I've looked at recently, they copy their rules from Fallout or are inspired by it, so they clearly love the game. So they copy the rules but don't do the hand crafted scripting that made that game great. To me its a lost opportunity. I think someone should do it.

 

[Davaris]

I've never understood the appeal of rougeylikes. Playing a randomly generated game with no end? I can't see a purpose to it.

"with no end" ???

Does it even have amulet of yendor or similar end game condition?

You mean Rodney?

No, I meant to ask if the game have any kind of end goal at the current state.

Yendor is Rodney backwards. Its the joke.

I know, but I don't see how It's relevant to whether the game has a win condition yet or not.

See my post where I mention the widget.

 

[Palikka]

I've never understood the appeal of rougeylikes. Playing a randomly generated game with no end? I can't see a purpose to it.

"with no end" ???

Yeah you are right. You have to find the widget and return. I guess I am confusing it with other ascii games inspired by it, because they all look the same. However in each case the feeling I get with these games is the same. The world is different each game, so no end to it. You can never get the feeling of becoming familiar with the individuals and places in it, because next game they are gone.

I guess I'm just not that familiar with general roguelikes, but the ones I've played the world stays always the same. ADOM, Cogmind, Qud.. The world is always the same, the quests, the npc's you can talk to, the items, the character system, monsters.
The things that change are the level layouts, the loot and whether you will fight one monster of type x or two monsters of type x.

 

[Space Satan]

I guess I'm just not that familiar with general roguelikes, but the ones I've played the world stays always the same. ADOM, Cogmind, Qud.. The world is always the same, the quests, the npc's you can talk to, the items, the character system, monsters.
The things that change are the level layouts, the loot and whether you will fight one monster of type x or two monsters of type x.

I think you already reach required levels of autism to try dwarf fortress adventure mode

 

[buffalo bill]

I think that's because this game has all the mechanical virtues of the best roguelikes in addition to a setting and writing that competes with (and is better than, in my opinion) the best non-roguelike crpgs. The only reason every Codexer won't play/love this game when it's finished is because they are closet graphics whores, I suspect.

Also a lot of codexers just suck at roguelikes and die a lot.

I've never understood the appeal of rougeylikes. Playing a randomly generated game with no end? I can't see a purpose to it.

I watched a play though of this last night and was very impressed with the Fallouty char generation and the writing. If only it was an RPG.

You are prejudging the game based on false assumptions. CoQ has a set of static maps with handwritten content and randomly generated wilderness and caves everywhere else. It's like Fallout, but the random encounters are not always the same 'outside a cave in the desert'. And the procedural generation algorithm is pretty good in CoQ.
Also, CoQ has quests with specific goals, a long-term storyline with plenty of hand-written content, and plenty of other non-random content.
tl;dr your thoughts on this game are based on nothing, why am I even responding?

 

[Davaris]

You are prejudging the game based on false assumptions. CoQ has a set of static maps with handwritten content and randomly generated wilderness and caves everywhere else. It's like Fallout, but the random encounters are not always the same 'outside a cave in the desert'. And the procedural generation algorithm is pretty good in CoQ.
Also, CoQ has quests with specific goals, a long-term storyline with plenty of hand-written content, and plenty of other non-random content.

My thoughts are based on what players and the developers say. They are based on discussions by roguelike fan websites and the books they put out, the playthroughs on YouTube and every roguelike made since the dawn of roguelikes. If it is like Fallout then why call it a roguelike? The locations in Fallout and the quests did not change and they were hand crafted. The history of the world in Fallout was not randomly rearranged by some clever algorithm.

http://www.cavesofqud.com/

“Caves of Qud is one of the best roguelikes in years, packed with evocative prose and featuring a captivating world of arcane secrets to explore.”

-Heather Alexandra, Kotaku


Explore procedurally-generated regions with some familiar locations — each world is nearly 1 million maps large.

A novel’s worth of handwritten lore is knit into a procedurally-generated history that’s unique each game.

The recurring element of roguelikes is the procedural generation. You can't say it isn't, because it has been that way from the beginning. The first roguelike used procedural generation. because the computers of the time, couldn't fit more than one level in memory and they have been doing it ever since.

And the rougelike radio people just put out a fascinating book on, you guessed it, procedural generation.


http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2017/06/episode-137-book-on-procedural.html

Table of Contents

Preface

Section I Procedural Generation

Chapter 1 When and Why to Use Procedural Generation

Darren Grey

Chapter 2 Managing Output: Boredom versus Chaos

Kenny Backus

Chapter 3 Aesthetics in Procedural Generation

Liam Welton

Chapter 4 Designing for Modularity

Jason Grinblat

Chapter 5 Ethical Procedural Generation

Dr. Michael Cook

Section II Procedural Content

Chapter 6 Level Design I: Case Study

Chris Chung

Chapter 7 Level Design II: Handcrafted Integration

Jim Shepard

Chapter 8 Level Design III: Architecture and Destruction

Evan Hahn

Chapter 9 Cyclic Generation

Dr. Joris Dormans

Chapter 10 Worlds

Dr. Mark R. Johnson

Chapter 11 Puzzles

Danny Day

Chapter 12 Procedural Logic

Ben Kane

Chapter 13 Artificial Intelligence

Mark R. Johnson

Chapter 14 Procedural Enemy Waves

Wyatt Cheng

Chapter 15 Generative Artwork

Loren Schmidt

Chapter 16 Generative Art Toys

Kate Compton

Chapter 17 Audio and Composition

Bronson Zgeb

Section III Procedural Narrative

Chapter 18 Story and Plot Generation

Ben Kybartas

Chapter 19 Emergent Narratives and Story Volumes

Jason Grinblat

Chapter 20 Poetry Generation

Harry Tuffs

Chapter 21 Characters and Personalities

Emily Short

Section IV The Procedural Future

Chapter 22 Understanding the Generated

Gillian Smith

Chapter 23 Content Tools Case Study

Kepa Auwae

Chapter 24 Automated Game Tuning

Aaron Isaksen

Chapter 25 Generating Rules

Dr. Michael Cook

Chapter 26 Algorithms and Approaches

Brian Bucklew

Chapter 27 Meaning

I am interested in this game if you say there is more to it. But calling it RL, well I have seen enough of them to know they aren't my thing.

 

[Iznaliu]

The recurring element of roguelikes is the procedural generation. You can't say it isn't, because it has been that way from the beginning. The first roguelike used procedural generation. because the computers of the time, couldn't fit more than one level in memory and they have been doing it ever since.

That was part of the reason, but claiming that is the only reason is reductionist and simplistic. One of the explicit design goals of Rogue was to provide infinite entertainment as its creators were tired of games that were exhausted once "solved".

 

[Tito Anic]

Playing it right now and having a BLAST! The game has "feel alive" world, cool lore, beautifull music and tiles. It definitely needs more attention from gamers. I have few questions guys:
How do you deal with satiation (harvested 20 vinewafers and their are gone 3 screens away)? Is there any method to magnify tiles?

 

[Blackmill]

Playing it right now and having a BLAST! The game has "feel alive" world, cool lore, beautifull music and tiles. It definitely needs more attention from gamers. I have few questions guys:
How do you deal with satiation (harvested 20 vinewafers and their are gone 3 screens away)? Is there any method to magnify tiles?

Eat corpses. Surprisingly, I don't think you can become sick from doing so, though I would avoid eating the corpses of fungal enemies just in case. Otherwise, random NPCs often sell food for cheap. You can buy a couple hundred vinewafers in Joppa from the guy who tells you to go to Redrock. Also, some food items are very useful or valuable, so you may want to turn off automatic eating.

 

[Blackmill]

The recurring element of roguelikes is the procedural generation. You can't say it isn't, because it has been that way from the beginning. The first roguelike used procedural generation. because the computers of the time, couldn't fit more than one level in memory and they have been doing it ever since.

That was part of the reason, but claiming that is the only reason is reductionist and simplistic. One of the explicit design goals of Rogue was to provide infinite entertainment as its creators were tired of games that were exhausted once "solved".

As much as I like CoQ, one of my disappointments is that the procedural generation doesn't lead to all that much more replayability. Once you learn the mechanics of the game, it's not hard to build a character that's effectively invulnerable, and at that point no amount of randomness changes the equation.

 

[hackncrazy]

The recurring element of roguelikes is the procedural generation. You can't say it isn't, because it has been that way from the beginning. The first roguelike used procedural generation. because the computers of the time, couldn't fit more than one level in memory and they have been doing it ever since.

That was part of the reason, but claiming that is the only reason is reductionist and simplistic. One of the explicit design goals of Rogue was to provide infinite entertainment as its creators were tired of games that were exhausted once "solved".

As much as I like CoQ, one of my disappointments is that the procedural generation doesn't lead to all that much more replayability. Once you learn the mechanics of the game, it's not hard to build a character that's effectively invulnerable, and at that point no amount of randomness changes the equation.

Is that right? I'm thinking of getting CoQ for quite some time because of the amount of good things I heard about it, but the consistent overworld is always a bit of a letdown for me (can't enjoy things like ADOM and TOME because they feel like a grind to start again and pass through the same places after a death).

If it's easy to be invulnerable in the game, than I'm definitely waiting a bit longer to get it.

 

[Blackmill]

As much as I like CoQ, one of my disappointments is that the procedural generation doesn't lead to all that much more replayability. Once you learn the mechanics of the game, it's not hard to build a character that's effectively invulnerable, and at that point no amount of randomness changes the equation.

Is that right? I'm thinking of getting CoQ for quite some time because of the amount of good things I heard about it, but the consistent overworld is always a bit of a letdown for me (can't enjoy things like ADOM and TOME because they feel like a grind to start again and pass through the same places after a death).

If it's easy to be invulnerable in the game, than I'm definitely waiting a bit longer to get it.

Becoming unkillable probably won't happen during your first few playthroughs. When I said it was easy to make such a character after learning the game's mechanics, I meant after having played enough of the game to be familiar with most of the items, and in particular the late game enemies. I'd still recommend CoQ since it does a lot of things really well.

 

[buffalo bill]

As much as I like CoQ, one of my disappointments is that the procedural generation doesn't lead to all that much more replayability. Once you learn the mechanics of the game, it's not hard to build a character that's effectively invulnerable, and at that point no amount of randomness changes the equation.

Is that right? I'm thinking of getting CoQ for quite some time because of the amount of good things I heard about it, but the consistent overworld is always a bit of a letdown for me (can't enjoy things like ADOM and TOME because they feel like a grind to start again and pass through the same places after a death).

If it's easy to be invulnerable in the game, than I'm definitely waiting a bit longer to get it.

Becoming unkillable probably won't happen during your first few playthroughs. When I said it was easy to make such a character after learning the game's mechanics, I meant after having played enough of the game to be familiar with most of the items, and in particular the late game enemies. I'd still recommend CoQ since it does a lot of things really well.

Not sure last time you played, but balancing is currently ongoing. Espers got a major nerf recently, for instance.

 

[Blackmill]

Not sure last time you played, but balancing is currently ongoing. Espers got a major nerf recently, for instance.

I was playing just recently.

Spoiler

Depending on how "all in" you build your character, by the late 20's or early 30's, you can easily get 30/35 DV melee/ranged attacks. The only ranged enemies who can hit you do too little damage to be a threat, powerful melee enemies can be trapped in a Force Wall and shot to death or kitted using high levels of Teleport (and even if they get close only hit 2% of the time), and enemy Espers become non-threats with high levels of Mental Mirror. This can all be done with reasonable investment in Toughness, Intelligence, and Strength so your early game is strong too and you aren't a glass cannon.

 

[mogwaimon]

You are prejudging the game based on false assumptions. CoQ has a set of static maps with handwritten content and randomly generated wilderness and caves everywhere else. It's like Fallout, but the random encounters are not always the same 'outside a cave in the desert'. And the procedural generation algorithm is pretty good in CoQ.
Also, CoQ has quests with specific goals, a long-term storyline with plenty of hand-written content, and plenty of other non-random content.

My thoughts are based on what players and the developers say. They are based on discussions by roguelike fan websites and the books they put out, the playthroughs on YouTube and every roguelike made since the dawn of roguelikes. If it is like Fallout then why call it a roguelike? The locations in Fallout and the quests did not change and they were hand crafted. The history of the world in Fallout was not randomly rearranged by some clever algorithm.

http://www.cavesofqud.com/


I am interested in this game if you say there is more to it. But calling it RL, well I have seen enough of them to know they aren't my thing.

Quote stripped so as to not shit up the thread too much but I think you're confusing the extreme procedural generation of a Dwarf Fortress for the typical procedural generation of a typical roguelike, where it's mostly the dungeon layouts, loot, mobs, etc. that change in each playthrough. Every play of Nethack has you going for the Amulet of Yendor, every play of ADOM has the same possible endings to work towards, so on and so forth. The lore, the items, the quests, are all typically hand-crafted.

A lot of these roguelikes can be pretty complicated too, far more so than most games. You should play a few beginner RLs so, you know, you actually have a decent idea of what you're talking about. Dungeonmans is pretty simple but fun, DoomRL is free and surprisingly good for a RL based on a FPS. Both have tiles as well so no ASCII. TOME is also another good option for a beginner roguelike.

The recurring element of roguelikes is the procedural generation. You can't say it isn't, because it has been that way from the beginning. The first roguelike used procedural generation. because the computers of the time, couldn't fit more than one level in memory and they have been doing it ever since.

That was part of the reason, but claiming that is the only reason is reductionist and simplistic. One of the explicit design goals of Rogue was to provide infinite entertainment as its creators were tired of games that were exhausted once "solved".

As much as I like CoQ, one of my disappointments is that the procedural generation doesn't lead to all that much more replayability. Once you learn the mechanics of the game, it's not hard to build a character that's effectively invulnerable, and at that point no amount of randomness changes the equation.

Is that right? I'm thinking of getting CoQ for quite some time because of the amount of good things I heard about it, but the consistent overworld is always a bit of a letdown for me (can't enjoy things like ADOM and TOME because they feel like a grind to start again and pass through the same places after a death).

If it's easy to be invulnerable in the game, than I'm definitely waiting a bit longer to get it.

TOME at least has an Adventure mode if you want to just beat the game, though the permadeath mode is the true TOME of course.

I'd like to play more CoQ but I'm really just waiting for there to be an end to work towards. But there are weekly updates and a ton of mutations to play with so there's always something new to mess with in the game at least.

 

[buffalo bill]

Not sure last time you played, but balancing is currently ongoing. Espers got a major nerf recently, for instance.

I was playing just recently.

Spoiler

Depending on how "all in" you build your character, by the late 20's or early 30's, you can easily get 30/35 DV melee/ranged attacks. The only ranged enemies who can hit you do too little damage to be a threat, powerful melee enemies can be trapped in a Force Wall and shot to death or kitted using high levels of Teleport (and even if they get close only hit 2% of the time), and enemy Espers become non-threats with high levels of Mental Mirror. This can all be done with reasonable investment in Toughness, Intelligence, and Strength so your early game is strong too and you aren't a glass cannon.

Fair enough. It's not much of an excuse, but most RPGs I can think of can be broken if you know what you're doing (especially by endgame), and CoQ is still being developed (especially endgame). Maybe ADOM does difficulty right, though.

 

[sser]

The recurring element of roguelikes is the procedural generation. You can't say it isn't, because it has been that way from the beginning. The first roguelike used procedural generation. because the computers of the time, couldn't fit more than one level in memory and they have been doing it ever since.

That was part of the reason, but claiming that is the only reason is reductionist and simplistic. One of the explicit design goals of Rogue was to provide infinite entertainment as its creators were tired of games that were exhausted once "solved".

As much as I like CoQ, one of my disappointments is that the procedural generation doesn't lead to all that much more replayability. Once you learn the mechanics of the game, it's not hard to build a character that's effectively invulnerable, and at that point no amount of randomness changes the equation.

Is that right? I'm thinking of getting CoQ for quite some time because of the amount of good things I heard about it, but the consistent overworld is always a bit of a letdown for me (can't enjoy things like ADOM and TOME because they feel like a grind to start again and pass through the same places after a death).

If it's easy to be invulnerable in the game, than I'm definitely waiting a bit longer to get it.

Caves of Qud has the best character creator of any of the roguelikes. The more or less static "overworld" is a non-factor. The world is enormous and the caves beneath it completely randomized. It's nothing like TOME in this respect.

 

[Iznaliu]

Maybe ADOM does difficulty right, though.

It is apparently one of the few where the endgame isn't ridiculously easy, but I never got there.

 

[buffalo bill]

friday update:

• We're trying out a change to how Willpower works. It now modifies the cooldowns of all activated abilities, not just mental mutations. Each point of Willpower above 16 decreases cooldowns by 5%, down to a minimum 20% of the original cooldown or a minimum 5 rounds. Likewise, each point of Willpower below 16 increases cooldowns by 5%.
  
• We reduced the power level of Freezing Hands and (to a lesser degree) Flaming Hands.
  • Freezing Hands: reduced the magnitude of the temperature decrease and reduced damage from (level)d4 to (level)d3+1.
    
  • Flaming Hands: slightly reduced the magnitude of the temperature increase and reduced damage from (level)d6 to (level)d4+1.
• New liquid: sap.
  
• Added sap to the list of potential cure ingredients for diseases and fungal infections.
  
• Creatures now bleed appropriate blood types.
  • Robots now bleed oil.
    
  • Plants now bleed sap.
    
  • Oozes now bleed slime.
• Fixed an issue that caused shields to not apply their AV bonuses when you blocked an attack.
  
• Made the Berate messages more sensible.
  
• Fixed the reputation formatting on the Reputation screen for factions that love you.
  
• Fixed engraved and painted items occasionally spawning with no historical events depicted.
  
• You no longer get "x pours out all over you" messages when other creatures get liquids poured on them.
  
• Fixed an issue causing cloned liquid volumes to share the source volume's liquid mixture.
  
• [modding]Added the following tags to specify what blood type a creature uses.
  • BleedLiquid, ex: <tag Name="BleedLiquid" Value="sap-1000"></tag>
    
  • BleedColor, ex: <tag Name="BleedColor" Value="&amp;W"></tag>
    
  • BleedPrefix, ex: <tag Name="BleedPrefix" Value="&amp;Wsappy"></tag>

 

[Tito Anic]

Got my first decent character(15lvl) killed today by Haggabah in Bethesda. If i only knew i could burrow around him. After playing COQ for about a week i understood that it is child of Adom and Tome4 (story driven + talent based game play).

 

[buffalo bill]

Friday update

• Added a new item: phase-shift grenade. It shifts the dimensional phase of everything in its area of effect.
  
• Added a new geological transition in very deep caverns.
  
• Added a UI option to display a message in the message log whenever you're in combat and your turn starts.
  
• Added a debug option to disable the limit of one defect per character.
  
• Missile weapon descriptions now display additional statistics, including weapon skill type, number of projectiles per shot, ammo use, and accuracy rating.
  
• Added a new debug wish: curefungus. It removes all fungal infections.
  
• Fixed an issue that prevented non-phased creatures from passing through phased walls.
  
• Fixed an issue that caused your character's color not to properly change based on HP and status when the new message log was enabled.
  
• Fixed an issue with Mark Target's cooldown.
  
• Fixed an issue causing monsters to fail to properly melee attack across map boundaries.
  
• Fixed an issue that caused baseline neutral monsters not to attack you after you've provoked them.
  
• Helping Hands no longer adds additional arms when you equip it to the thrown weapon slot.
  
• Fixed some engraved items still not depicting a historical event.
  
• You can now avoid steam damage by phasing or flying over it.
  
• Changed the default rendering API to DX9 on Windows, which should fix some issues with low-spec machines reporting DX11 support but crashing on launch because they didn't fully support it.

 

[almondblight]

Maybe ADOM does difficulty right, though.

It doesn't.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

http://store.steampowered.com/news/externalpost/steam_community_announcements/2095718613772036298

Feature Friday - Cybernetics
2 SEPTEMBER - ALPHABEARD

• We replaced the old cybernetics system with a newer, much more elaborate one.
  • Cybernetics are still only available to true kin.
    
  • We added dozens of new cybernetic implants.
    
  • Implants are installed onto body parts at cybernetic terminals called 'becoming nooks'. Potential body parts include: head, face, body, back, arm, hands and feet. Unlike old implants, these new implants do not occupy equipment slots.
    
  • A few implants actually do occupy equipment slots.
    
  • You can view your installed implants on the new Cybernetics tab of the Equipment screen. The tab doesn't appear if you have no implants installed.
    
  • Implants must be identified before you can install them.
    
  • Only one implant can be installed per body part.
    
  • Some implants can be installed on one of several body parts.
    
  • Each implant has a license point cost associated with it. The total number of license points across all your installed implants can't exceed your license tier.
    
  • True kin start with a license tier of 2. You can upgrade your license tier at a becoming nook by spending cybernetic credits.
    
  • You can install and uninstall implants freely at a nook, as long as you remain at or below your license tier.
    
  • Uninstalled implants go into your inventory. Some implants are destroyed when uninstalled, however. Other implants can't be uninstalled. All this info is in the implant's description.
    
  • When installing implants at a becoming nook, the implants must either be in your inventory or the nook's rack.
    
  • There are some preset becoming nooks in the game. They also have the chance to appear in certain types of procedurally-generated ruins. Becoming nooks usually have implants in their nook racks.
    
  • Implants themselves can also appear as rare loot.
    
  • Per the Eaters' architecturally tastes, becoming nooks are usually found along side statues of implanted Eaters.
    
  • Most cybernetic credit wedges are now placed in preset locations throughout the world, but they also can appear as very rare loot.
    
  • True kin can pick one implant from a subset of the implants to start with at character creation.
    
  • The list of starting implants includes generic ones and a unique implant for each arcology only available to characters from that arcology.
    
  • Added a new journal category: Ruins with Becoming Nooks.
    
  • Some factions, but especially the Putus Templar, now share the locations of ruins with becoming nooks as secrets.
    
  • Balanced the Templar's water ritual credit wedge gift for the new system.
    
  • Reduced true kin's starting attributes by 2.
    
  • Added a whole bunch of minor stuff in support of this patch.
• Made the night-vision visual effect more playable.
  
• Fixed an issue with Sense Psychic and Heightened Hearing not properly showing identified object tiles.