Incline Butthurt Dungeon: Thac0's Ultimate Blobber List

[Rincewind]

I believe you, but it's more likely that I simply forgot because including these games in the list at all is bizarre to me. In my mind, blobbers are defined by blobber style combat, whether turn based or real time.
Putting in something with a top down view that has actual individualized movement (i.e. Specifically not a blob) means that it's not a blobber by definition. As a result, me remembering that it'd be on a list of blobbers is basically a non-starter. As I say, you simply dilute it to have little meaning.

Exactly what I've been trying to explain a few pages ago, my friend. Including all these games will just make this a general "recommended oldschool RPGs" list... which is fine, but then it's not about first-person view grid-based RPGs anymore.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I believe you, but it's more likely that I simply forgot because including these games in the list at all is bizarre to me. In my mind, blobbers are defined by blobber style combat, whether turn based or real time.
Putting in something with a top down view that has actual individualized movement (i.e. Specifically not a blob) means that it's not a blobber by definition. As a result, me remembering that it'd be on a list of blobbers is basically a non-starter. As I say, you simply dilute it to have little meaning.

Exactly what I've been trying to explain a few pages ago, my friend. Including all these games will just make this a general "recommended oldschool RPGs" list... which is fine, but then it's not about first-person view grid-based RPGs anymore.

I still think this general point stands. The main thing I think I didn't sufficiently consider is that about first person dungeon exploration (even if the combat system is in a different perspective). That's the only way you get the types of mapping challenges the subgenre is known for like spinners, teleportation traps, darkness, etc. You can't really effectively do that from another perspective such as isometric or top down.

 

[samuraigaiden]

I suggest the inclusion of a category for pretty looking blobbers that will appeal to graphics whores.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Elminage Gothic ★
Stranger of Sword City ★
Labyrinth of Refrain ★

That garbage is recommended?
Playing Elminage is a chore due to the UI, dungeon design and some story events you have to trigger by walking on a specific tile.
Also, garbage "ghost" NPC in dungeons diluting the useful ones.

Sword City system is decent but the grind is unbereable as well as the usual events you have to trigger by leaving the dungeon, only it happens a lot.

Labyrinth of Refrain is probably the best of the three, system + combat wise but the story is retarded and omnipresent and of course, you also get the usual backtracking all the time and of course, you get the game features one at a time during the first half of the game...

And Touhou... I played it for 5 minutes and enjoyed it a lot the moment i hit uninstall.exe...

Legend of Grimrock ★
Legend of Grimrock II ★

This garbage shouldn't even be on the list, let alone get a fucking star, let's give Starcrawlers and BT IV a star while we're at it...
Grimrock system is absolute trash, more dumbed down than this has only be seen in the worst facebook MMO games and the combat isn't better.
And then the shitty puzzles...

Might and Magic VI ★
Might and Magic VII-VIII

And while all that trash gets stars, M&M VII and VIII don't get one?
They're all as good as VI, what they lose on one side, they get on another, they're more focused, improve on little things, try new classes...

 

[Rincewind]

Grimrock system is absolute trash, more dumbed down than this has only be seen in the worst facebook MMO games and the combat isn't better.
And then the shitty puzzles...

Someone please show this gentleman the exit...

 

[Thac0]

Patchnotes 1.1:

Deleted:
Abandoned Places 2 ⚔
Drakhen
Disciples of Steel
Labyrinth of Lost Souls ⚔

Changed:
Aternate Reality ⚔ -> Alternate Reality:The Dungeon ⚔
Might and Magic VII-VIII -> Might and Magic VI-VIII ★
Crystal Dragon -> Crystal Dragon ⚔
Stonekeep ★ -> Stonekeep ★⚔
Wasteland I -> Wasteland I ★

Added:
Hired Guns under Misc
Captive I+II under Real Time

Comments:
agris you should check your reading comprehension, it was never about the quality of Krondor, but more about wether the game is even enough of a blobber. The sewer maps that V_K posted are make or break, but they are definitly at least as complex as the amber lineage. So if amber stays Krondor has to stay aswell.

I kept Vaporum and Bard's Tale IV for now, since the argument that Vaporum brought something new to the action blobber formula is valid, despite the game being kinda shit. Bard's Tale IV is such an odd game, I would still be fine with cutting it, but I can see that the absurd amount of puzzles and riddles can appeal to some people, and puzzle/riddle autism is a part of blobber legacy.

Stonekeep and Wasteland updates are old comments I wanted to implement but overlooked.

I actually agree with you Darth Canoli when it comes to Elminage Gothic, Sword City, Refrain. I would steal Sword Cities' star, give Elminage Gothic polarising and keep Refrain as is, but the Japanese categories are disputed enough as is, and I know that there are large amounts of users here who like Sword City a lot, and consider Gothic one of the best blobbers. As such I have decided to not take action there yet.
I think the large part of disagreement comes from the fact that the Japanese games are not sequestered enough into their own subcategories. If I made this list on another forum I would have split them into JRPG typical combat systems and classical Wizardry combat systems for example. As thus games that appeal to very different people land in the same subcategory, a phenomenon that is mostly avoided with the western blobbers. I don't think it would be wise to split open the Japanese categories into more categories now however, as the list is still in GRPG. I have asked for special permission to bring Japanese blobbers into GRPG in the first place, I am not sure that exception would hold if I started making the list more JRPG centric.

samuraigaiden interesting idea, but after this round I will start adding pictures to the games anyway. As such the tags or categories for pretty games become useless.
I plan on adding three pictures per game, one of the combat system, one of a dungeon map and one that is just pretty. That should give a good overview per game.

 

[Strange Fellow]

One thing that's weird and confusing about your list is how you decide to group together some series entries and not others. In the case of Might and Magic, for instance, you group together three games, of which two are widely praised here but the third (VIII) of disputed quality. I also think the first Might and Magic deserves a star, but I don't know about the second because I've only played it for a few hours.* Right now MM1 doesn't have one because of this haphazard lumping together of similar games. Conversely, the EotB games, the first three Wizardries or the Grimrocks aren't grouped together, for no clear reason. I say drop the groupings, and keep only the game or games that made you want to include the entry in the first place. Then people can complain if you've been too strict.

*By all accounts the second game deserves a star as well, but I know opinion varies (IIRC resident MM guru Sceptic considers it to be among the weakest of the series).

Edit: also, what is real time toggle?

 

[mondblut]

Wasteland I -> Wasteland I ★

Wut?

One may argue whether a blobber can be gridless and free-roaming, one may argue whether a blobber can be a game with one character, but one thing a blobber absolutely MUST be is being a FIRST PERSON GAME.

And Hired Guns is a grid-based split-screen shooter. You don't "blob", every character is controlled separately. RPG elements, if any, are minimal at best.

 

[Thac0]

One thing that's weird and confusing about your list is how you decide to group together some series entries and not others. In the case of Might and Magic, for instance, you group together three games, of which two are widely praised here but the third (VIII) of disputed quality. I also think the first Might and Magic deserves a star, but I don't know about the second because I've only played it for a few hours.* Right now MM1 doesn't have one because of this haphazard lumping together of similar games. Conversely, the EotB games, the first three Wizardries or the Grimrocks aren't grouped together, for no clear reason. I say drop the groupings, and keep only the game or games that made you want to include the entry in the first place. Then people can complain if you've been too strict.

*By all accounts the second game deserves a star as well, but I know opinion varies (IIRC resident MM guru Sceptic considers it to be among the weakest of the series).

Edit: also, what is real time toggle?

The logic behind it is that as long as multiple games are in the same category and all have the same tags, they are condensed.
It is definitly inconsistent for now, I will make it consistent for 1.2.
Each game listed singularily is possible aswell, but I think it is less ergonomic for space.

Real time toggle means that apparently those games can be played both turn based and real time, while being gridless. Makes them a bit stressfull to categorise.

Wasteland I -> Wasteland I ★

Wut?

One may argue whether a blobber can be gridless and free-roaming, one may argue whether a blobber can be a game with one character, but one thing a blobber absolutely MUST be is being a FIRST PERSON GAME.

And Hired Guns is a grid-based split-screen shooter. You don't "blob", every character is controlled separately. RPG elements, if any, are minimal at best.

True, strongly considering removing both games for next round.
Wasteland is currently in for being Bard's Tale descendant, but it really is too far removed.
Hired Guns really looks more like a shooter predecessor, but it got so much interest in this thread that I guess it is interesting for blobber veterans?

 

[Strange Fellow]

The logic behind it is that as long as multiple games are in the same category and all have the same tags, they are condensed.

That's no logic at all. These are separate games with varying degrees of quality even though they belong to the same series. I think you're more worried about our scroll wheels than you should be.

Real time toggle means that apparently those games can be played both turn based and real time, while being gridless.

This also applies to Might and Magic 6+ as well as Wizardry 8.

 

[Mortmal]

Drakkhen is fantastic especially for its time, but its not a blobber not at all . It's closer to baldur's gate but 10 years earlier. 1989 release mind you, probably the most unknown great rpg.

 

[Pink Eye]

Real time toggle means that apparently those games can be played both turn based and real time

You have the Ravenloft games in this category. Neither Stone Prophet nor Strahd's Possession can be played in Turn Based. They're both exclusively Real Time:

Don't know about Menzoberranzan. Haven't played it yet. Still finishing Fallout 1.

 

[Dorateen]

*By all accounts the second game deserves a star as well, but I know opinion varies (IIRC resident MM guru Sceptic considers it to be among the weakest of the series).

I would endorse a star for MMII. It is like the first Might & Magic, but on steroids. JVC threw everything and the kitchen sink into the design. I believe the view of the esteemed Sceptic is that the second entry dilutes the purity of the first Might & Magic (introducing a basic automap, and targeted level scaling), which I can respect. However, I still think Gates to Another World is a fantastic, wild experience.

 

[samuraigaiden]

Any list like this should avoid as much as possible muddying the waters of genre definition. A note at the bottom mentioning non-blobbers relevant for appreciation is preferable.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Real time toggle means that apparently those games can be played both turn based and real time, while being gridless. Makes them a bit stressfull to categorise.

This also applies to Might and Magic 6+ as well as Wizardry 8.

If Wizardry 8 has a real-time mode, it's well hidden, because i played the shit out of it.
And if your refer the continuous mode, it's just Turn-Based (guys keep the same orders until they can't or you change them) but with auto-combat and auto-end turns, but you can change actions on the go for next turn.

It's not the same thing at all, your actions are delayed, it's more like faster paced TB.

Thac0 I still have to play the original Wasteland, only played the remaster a little but if I agree about Dragon Wars star (not a blobber though), I don't think Wasteland I deserves one, at least, the remaster doesn't.
Anyway, they're not blobbers so i guess it doesn't matter.

And about Grimrock, I forgot to mention it only has graphics and SFX (ambient) to brag about, everything else is bad or worse, even exploration and dungeon design are respectively terrible and mediocre, having to hug every fucking wall to find secrets or reading a walkthrough to avoid it isn't exactly the epitome of game design.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Ah these games...(really the same one)

 

[octavius]

I believe the view of the esteemed Sceptic is that the second entry dilutes the purity of the first Might & Magic (introducing a basic automap, and targeted level scaling), which I can respect.

MM1 has level scaling too, but it's more subtle and harder to notice. Still, it's combined with area scaling, so it's not all bad.

However, I still think Gates to Another World is a fantastic, wild experience.

Amen to that.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I had to think about the magic system of my favorite old school Blobbers:
Bard's Tale - spell points/mana
Might & Magic - spell points/gems
Wizardry - vancian

Some hybrids:
Ultima - mana/sp & mana/sp+reagents

 

[Darth Canoli]

I had to think about the magic system of my favorite old school Blobbers:
Bard's Tale - spell points/mana
Might & Magic - spell points/gems
Wizardry - vancian

Some hybrids:
Ultima - mana/sp & mana/sp+reagents

Wizardry 8 - spell points
Amberland - spell points

I really like the spell points system better, it's a bit like the sorcerer system but better because you get access to all the spells and you can cast more spells of high level if that's all you cast.
And you can add a SP regen system.

That's probably why i like the KotC 2 psionicist this much, except there isn't any sp regeneration...

 

[VonHoffenHeimer]

i never thought of Phantasy Star as Weeb.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

You know, I haven't actually made a list of old games that used either Vancian or spell points. It is funny the Red health and blue mana thing. ACS did that ages ago. Green was movement points.

Speed / Power / Life

vs Diablo 2

 

[rusty_shackleford]

final fantasy is an old school blobber that used a simplified vancian magic system

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

That's kind of interesting since Phantasie used a magic point system.

I always thought there was quite a bit of influence from phantasie for final fantasy. I suppose basing that off of end of combat dancing a bit of a leap.

 

[Darth Canoli]

final fantasy is an old school blobber that used a simplified vancian magic system

If it's a blobber, every fucking jrpg ever made is a blobber.
I don't even think it qualifies as old school, old yes, old school, no, because it was decline from the get go.
Rather than Final Fantasy, i'd have mentioned Phantasy star but you still have a third person exploration.

Shining in the darkness is a blobber using SP, one you have to map manually and it was even quite fun but i'm not sure how holds 20+ years later.

 

[samuraigaiden]

If Shining in the Darkness gets a spot, Shining the Holy Ark should get a star.