Broken Age - Double Fine's Kickstarter Adventure Game

[evdk]

It's something special already - special needs kids trying to budget a game.

 

[felipepepe]

Maybe 'new' and 'genius' are too strong, but what I'm saying is that they are clearly putting a lot of thought into how the game plays, and the controls...and that's something that I really appreciate. Its those small things (little puffs when she walks on the clouds, having the boys posture change throughout the story, etc) that are the rays of hope that this game will be something special.

That's some damn low expectations you have for a veteran medium-sized studio with 800% its budget... this is the guy that made Full Throttle and Grim Fandango, FFS!

Seems like as time & news goes by, Double Fine went from Saviour of Gaming™ to a retarded child you expect nothing and applause every and any effort...

 

[Pyke]

I honestly wasn't expecting the game to be anything other than a really cool Adventure Game. My point is that in those small touches you can see what they were trying to accomplish - but instead of going forward with those things, they spent money on things that WEREN'T important (Things that AAA titles do), like full recorded orchestra, outsourcing storyboarding and concept art, specifically creating cinematics for the teaser, etc.

 

[MRY]

Well, that would be a fairly useless mechanic, only good as a frustration management tool. Certainly a far cry from the games of old, like everything in this project.

I'm pretty sure there were games of old that had that set-up, but as I think about it, I'm pretty sure that both Maniac Mansion and Zak McKracken allowed the characters to interact from the point at which you could control them (MM at the start, ZM near the end).

 

[evdk]

I honestly wasn't expecting the game to be anything other than a really cool Adventure Game. My point is that in those small touches you can see what they were trying to accomplish - but instead of going forward with those things, they spent money on things that WEREN'T important (Things that AAA titles do), like full recorded orchestra, outsourcing storyboarding and concept art, specifically creating cinematics for the teaser, etc.

I would've been satisfied with a 640x480 game, with hand drawn 2D graphics and Schaefer's script - those bells and whistles are nice from a story telling point of view, but they are useless if the rest of the game is not up to par. I'm still hoping that the game will be have a good story (in spite of everything that I know about the game), but I'm far less optimistic than I used to be.

I'm pretty sure there were games of old that had that set-up, but as I think about it, I'm pretty sure that both Maniac Mansion and Zak McKracken allowed the characters to interact from the point at which you could control them (MM at the start, ZM near the end).

It would be a step down from titles Schaefer has worked on previously, that's for sure. Streamlining the design and so on.

 

[Blackthorne]

You know, I don't have any ill will towards them, and I wish them luck on their game. The only thing that I think of is that there are many independent game producers who are making quality adventure games in a prudent, professional and interesting manner - and I think many of their games would compete very well against a title like Broken Age, some even being better. I'm glad that many of us got an opportunity to produce games using Kickstarter, and I hope our works that come out of it will show that smaller, independent groups, CAN make great games for people to enjoy - I'm only saying that the money that wouldn't even fund Broken Age (one game) completely would have kept many other worthy studios making many great games for a while. It sure is harder to run a bigger studio, for sure - but you have to think about what that 3.3 million dollars FANS gave for a game could have done in the hands of others. (Not that that money was, like, up for grabs for everyone.) I guess I've just seen more compete pitches, with demos, concept art, a real plan for a game, that have raised a miniscule amount of what this has, and the only promise and idea for this game was "Well, we can make an old-school adventure game!" Tim Schaeffer definitely earned his cred in the field, no doubt about it - and that's the face that launches a thousand ships.... but the last time a face launched a thousand ships, it all ended in disaster!

Bt

 

[MRY]

You know, I don't have any ill will towards them, and I wish them luck on their game. The only thing that I think of is that there are many independent game producers who are making quality adventure games in a prudent, professional and interesting manner - and I think many of their games would compete very well against a title like Broken Age, some even being better. I'm glad that many of us got an opportunity to produce games using Kickstarter, and I hope our works that come out of it will show that smaller, independent groups, CAN make great games for people to enjoy - I'm only saying that the money that wouldn't even fund Broken Age (one game) completely would have kept many other worthy studios making many great games for a while.

I understand your concern, but I think it's quite a bit more complicated than that (as I think you recognize when you say that it's not like the money "was, like, up for grabs fore everyone").

It's not like there is Old School Adventure Game Renewal Agency with a budget of such and such millions of dollars earmarked for Kickstarter projects, such that every dollar that went to DFA was a dollar that didn't go to another Kickstarter adventure game. To the contrary, the amount of funding for Kickstarter projects is completely fluid. In the case of DFA, while the project "consumed" 3.3M in funding, it didn't shrink the pot for other projects -- it grew the pot enormously. I think it's fair to say that none of the projects that followed would've gotten anywhere near the money they did without DFA. So, rather than thinking that your game funded "despite" DFA, I think it's fair to say that your project funded precisely because of DFA. You reaped the benefit of DFA: (1) getting people signed up on Kickstarter such that it was easy for them to back another project; (2) getting people comfortable with the idea of funding projects; and (3) in many instances, "hooked" on the process, such that they were just looking for projects to fund. In most cases, despite what people say (and I frequently see people saying silly things like they can't buy Primordia for $10 but can for $5 -- certainly that's not true for people within the US*), anyone who had $10 to back DFA also had another $10 to back your project. It's not like buying a car or a house where once you'd done it once, you can't really do it again for a long time.

Which is all to say, the $3.3M was never going to end up "in the hands of others."

The danger of DFA is not that it ate up a bunch of money that could've gone elsewhere. It's that just as it was a project that effectively kick-started Kickstarter to the benefit of others, if it winds up a shambles it could discredit the platform to the detriment of others. Moreover, the social contract that justifies the Kickstarter process (which is, generally speaking, people who aren't living their dreams and aren't wealthy giving money so that wealthier people can live their dreams) is that the end product is something that enriches the lives of the people who funded it. In that respect, I think it's quite a bit more offensive if a Kickstarter project winds up not delivering than if traditionally funded game does. In the traditional model, game makers have their dreams crushed by the realities of the industry, and then consumers have their dreams crushed by the realities of the industry. As long as everyone is crushed together, it's not inequitable.

[EDIT: Just to be clear, there are lots of people in the US for whom $5 is a meaningful amount of money. I just don't think they're the people buying old school adventure games on Steam. Also, as a super frugal person, I wholly endorse people not wanting to buy Primordia at full price. I just think it's a matter of choice, not necessity.]

 

[Mrowak]

Sure they can. Because they actually manage whole teams of people and coordinate work between them while constantly checking the milestones against deadlines and financial constraints. That's actually a dictionary definition of a "producer" (one that produces). A really good manager is *always* involved in the design process coordinating work of the designers and understanding what they are talking about. In many respects he is a designer, but the one who represents "the voice of reason" rather than "the voice of artistic inspiration" or whatever.

You are talking about managers, who are also designers. When I say managers, I think of the money guys, who don't have a clue how to design a game, they just know how to run a studio financially.

Obviously I am referring to people with wealth of experience in IT and/or game development. But even with more general manager they often provide invaluable input that should not be handwaved and be great advisors to the competent authority - see Shafer ignoring financial reports of his aids (nah, nah, nah, I didn't hear you!).

In fact in each Kickstarter endeavours there is someone who fills the shoes of a chief manager: e.g. Brian Fargo in inXile. These days he is less of a developer and more of a manager. Time will tell if he put enough points in Business and Management skills.

 

[J_C]

Shafer ignoring financial reports of his aids (nah, nah, nah, I didn't hear you!).

Oh come one, you know that he didn't do that. They mismanaged the project, that's true. But that doesn't mean that Tim just closed his ears when the others said that they don't have enough money. They probably set out a plan which was under budget. But as the time went on, they realized that the game is not progressing as fast as it should, and they need more time. And more time means more money.

 

[Mrowak]

Shafer ignoring financial reports of his aids (nah, nah, nah, I didn't hear you!).

Oh come one, you know that he didn't do that. They mismanaged the project, that's true. But that doesn't mean that Tim just closed his ears when the others said that they don't have enough money. They probably set out a plan which was under budget. But as the time went on, they realized that the game is not progressing as fast as it should, and they need more time. And more time means more money.

Which is exactly why they should have fucking begin with a goddamn plan. Making one on the fly just won't cut it. The one they started with was obviously shit that didn't account for risk factors, deadlines, milestones, stretchgoals and all the money these entailed.

 

[Metro]

They could just cancel the project and give the finger to all the backers and some of you would still be defending them. Unreal.

 

[buzz]

They could just cancel the project and give the finger to all the backers and some of you would still be defending them. Unreal.

I can see where some people are coming from. Schafer was always some kind of "renegade". All games where he was the lead designer were weird, black sheep type of games (Full Throttle with the action, Grim Fandango with the controls and then all of his stuff at Double Fine). He is somewhat similar to Molyneux except not as awful and controversial.

Basically if one is a typical fan of him and his work, they are probably used and even expecting this kind of attitude or results from him and his team.

 

[Aeschylus]

They could just cancel the project and give the finger to all the backers and some of you would still be defending them. Unreal.

Well, I don't feel any particular need to defend DF for their mismanagement and poor (non-existent, really) planning, but I don't think this whole thing is quite as cataclysmic as people are making it out to be.

 

[J_C]

They could just cancel the project and give the finger to all the backers and some of you would still be defending them. Unreal.

Well, I don't feel any particular need to defend DF for their mismanagement and poor (non-existent, really) planning, but I don't think this whole thing is quite as cataclysmic as people are making it out to be.

Yes. The game will come out next year, noone should have doubt about that. Just like after many delays, Age of Decadence will come out on Thursday. Yes, they mismanaged the funds, yes they delayed the game, but it happend many time with other devs. The difference that it is more transparent now, and people are butthurt, because it is a kickstarter, and not the publisher's money.

 

[Mrowak]

They could just cancel the project and give the finger to all the backers and some of you would still be defending them. Unreal.

Well, I don't feel any particular need to defend DF for their mismanagement and poor (non-existent, really) planning, but I don't think this whole thing is quite as cataclysmic as people are making it out to be.

Yes. The game will come out next year, noone should have doubt about that.

Erm... excuse me? So when exactly can we start having doubts? The moment they run off with the money to Majorca glorious Russia?

Just like after many delays, Age of Decadence will come out on Thursday. Yes, they mismanaged the funds, yes they delayed the game, but it happend many time with other devs. The difference that it is more transparent now, and people are butthurt, because it is a kickstarter, and not the publisher's money.

:facepalm:

And you yourself said that time is money and the more they dawdle the project is going to cost more... There's faith and there's blind fanboyism.

 

[Aeschylus]

Erm... excuse me? So when exactly can we start having doubts? The moment they run off with the money to Majorca glorious Russia?

I think that would be more of an issue if they had any money left to run away with.

But in seriousness if they don't release the game it is the end of their studio, so they will put something out eventually for better or worse.

 

[Mrowak]

Erm... excuse me? So when exactly can we start having doubts? The moment they run off with the money to Majorca glorious Russia?

I think that would be more of an issue if they had any money left to run away with.

Well they do have - from the second Kickstarter. If there's a time to leg it, I don't know better one than *now*.

But in seriousness if they don't release the game it is the end of their studio, so they will put something out eventually for better or worse.

Which juding from the amount of mismanagement will be a huge abortion. One of the cornerstores of management is actually ensuring that anything that could lower quality of the product is prevented.

 

[J_C]

They could just cancel the project and give the finger to all the backers and some of you would still be defending them. Unreal.

Well, I don't feel any particular need to defend DF for their mismanagement and poor (non-existent, really) planning, but I don't think this whole thing is quite as cataclysmic as people are making it out to be.

Yes. The game will come out next year, noone should have doubt about that.

Erm... excuse me? So when exactly can we start having doubts? The moment they run off with the money to Majorca glorious Russia?

Well I really don't have any doubt that they will deliver the game. They might have to delay the game, but as Aeschylus said, if they want to keep their studio running, and stay in the business, they have to finish that game, whatever it takes. It is really stupid to think of them running away from the money, or flushing the project down the toilet. I think those people don't realize that they would finish their own future in the gaming industry with that. And people who live for the videogames, and chose that career won't do that.

Just like after many delays, Age of Decadence will come out on Thursday. Yes, they mismanaged the funds, yes they delayed the game, but it happend many time with other devs. The difference that it is more transparent now, and people are butthurt, because it is a kickstarter, and not the publisher's money.

:facepalm:

And you yourself said that time is money and the more they dawdle the project is going to cost more... There's faith and there's blind fanboyism.

Well they will release the game whatever it takes. And as they said in the documentary, they will have to fund the remaining money from the company's money. It is in their interest to not stretch the development for another 2 years, because that will cost them more money.

 

[Mrowak]

They could just cancel the project and give the finger to all the backers and some of you would still be defending them. Unreal.

Well, I don't feel any particular need to defend DF for their mismanagement and poor (non-existent, really) planning, but I don't think this whole thing is quite as cataclysmic as people are making it out to be.

Yes. The game will come out next year, noone should have doubt about that.

Erm... excuse me? So when exactly can we start having doubts? The moment they run off with the money to Majorca glorious Russia?

Well I really don't have any doubt that they will deliver the game. They might have to delay the game, but as Aeschylus said, if they want to keep their studio running, and stay in the business, they have to finish that game, whatever it takes. It is really stupid to think of them running away from the money, or flushing the project down the toilet. I think those people don't realize that they would finish their own future in the gaming industry with that. And people who live for the videogames, and chose that career won't do that.

I was joking (well, half-joking). Regardless, undoubtedly the current crisis will impact the final quality of the game adversely, there is no way around it. I doubt Kickstarter backers gave their money for that.

Just like after many delays, Age of Decadence will come out on Thursday. Yes, they mismanaged the funds, yes they delayed the game, but it happend many time with other devs. The difference that it is more transparent now, and people are butthurt, because it is a kickstarter, and not the publisher's money.

:facepalm:

And you yourself said that time is money and the more they dawdle the project is going to cost more... There's faith and there's blind fanboyism.

Well they will release the game whatever it takes. And as they said in the documentary, they will have to fund the remaining money from the company's money. It is in their interest to not stretch the development for another 2 years, because that will cost them more money.

And apparently "company's money" grows on trees... I rest my case.

 

[J_C]

And apparently "company's money" grows on trees... I rest my case.

Never said that. That's why they have to hurry, because they have to use their income from the sales of their other games.

 

[Taxnomore]

For some reason, I always thought Tim Schafer was pretty much the Terry Gilliam of video games, in a "weird" kind of way. But at least Gilliam didn't ask for my money for Lost in La Mancha, which is how this game is shaping up to be if he doesn't get his brains sorted.

 

[Bulba]

"company's money"

 

[DeepOcean]

Not releasing the game would cause a PR nightmare so big that Tim would get all internet shit throw in his face and that could easily make investors and publishers don't wanting to getting involved with Double Fine and the end of the company as result, without mentioning the hundred lawsuits angry people will make, it doesn't matter if kickstarter or Double Fine didn't assumed full responsibility for the project, if some judge think the lawsuits have merit, Double Fine is Double fucked if they don't release the game. I'm more worried about the state of the game upon release.

 

[villain of the story]

I think that the biggest issue is that they are treating this like a AAA title, and its not. They didn't need to bring in Peter Chan to do concept art. They didn't need to specifically score live music for the trailer, or score live music at all for the game.

You can find INCREDIBLE musicians online who can create full string orchestral pieces by themselves (Stasis will have a fully orchestral OST) at very reasonable prices.

Double Fine has some amazing artists in-house who are MORE than capable of creating the concepts and the pieces of art required for the game.

I think that attacking a bootstrapped project with a AAA mentality is ridiculous. And sadly, they missed out on an opportunity to really bring in some incredible NEW talent on an amazing project.
Its the equivalent of shooting an indie movie with your friends, and hiring a catering company and location trailers, instead of ordering pizza and sleeping in cars (both of which I've done when shooting short films!).

Exactly. And then they find the guts to call themselves independent when their actions are in direct opposition to the independent culture, doing nothing to cultivate it by forgoing a change creating opportunities in favour of big names.

That said, the game does look very nice from what I've seen. There are some thing which I think are little acts of genius, such has having walking speed controlled by the distance of the mouse click in relation to the character.

NO. It's not new, been done before and still sucks just as much as it did back then. It shits on the comfort of point & click. Now you have to click unnecessarily frequently over very nudges with your mouse when you just want to see the character walk. There is nothing genius about it, it's just bad design.

Unless there is a way to toggle that on/off.

 

[villain of the story]

Also, on a completely subjective basis, I am not getting any of that "Old School Adventure(TM)" vibe from Broken Age, "the kind that publishers are no longer willing to fund". It looks to me like one of the any other random DFA titles or any other fancy indie adventure released in the last couple years. I don't see what makes it "Old School" and stand out from the crowd and especially not what makes it cost so damn much and 800%+ over-budget.

I didn't follow the conception of the game very closely so I don't know how it came about once KS was over. Was it a concept Tim had in mind for a while before the KS? It isn't particularly inspiring from a glance. Disappointing even, considering all the ruckus about "no more old school games because publishers".