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Broken Age - Double Fine's Kickstarter Adventure Game

FeelTheRads

Arcane
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Apr 18, 2008
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13,716
Yes, the game budget was actually going to be 300k, not four. The other hundred was for the documentary.

So $300,000 plan turned into like two million and they still couldn't get half the game done on that.

Yes, but I can understand that they expanded the game from what was planned for those 300k.* I don't understand why they expanded the documentary too. What would have been worse about it if was done with only 100k?

In before "we need to cut the resolution of the documentary in half".

*And seeing their ability to handle money it looks like that flash game that they had in mind would have been way too much for them with "just" 300k.
 

DalekFlay

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Yes, but I can understand that they expanded the game from what was planned for those 300k. I don't understand why they expanded the documentary too. What would have been worse about it if was done with only 100k?

In before "we need to cut the resolution of the documentary in half".


Good point. I'd tell you to raise it on the backer forum if I thought anyone would respond to it.

What I still consider to be the funniest part of this is that a high percentage of backers for this project in particular would likely have been HAPPIER, let alone satisfied, if they had done a Gemini Rue style game in AGS with the original budget.
 

FeelTheRads

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Heh, I didn't back this. Found out too late about it and then regretted it.. up until details about the game showed up. Now I'm glad I didn't threw money away on this.

Still have a couple of other potential candidates for pain that I backed, though. :kingcomrade:
 

jfrisby

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Yes, but I can understand that they expanded the game from what was planned for those 300k. I don't understand why they expanded the documentary too. What would have been worse about it if was done with only 100k?

Good point. I'd tell you to raise it on the backer forum if I thought anyone would respond to it.

This seemed to be the byproduct of them not discussing things fully in advance with 2PlayerProductions, so they felt obligated to give a percentage-based cut to them as their Kickstarter exploded and people started saying "backed for the documentary!" over and over. Producer Greg explained this in one of the only money related posts, which set the documentary budget at $393k, or 15% after rewards/fees (as of 4/12). It has been implied that they also continue to get a cut of late-backer & bundle net. Many people in the backer forums did try and fail to call scrutiny to the absurdity of these numbers.
 

DalekFlay

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This seemed to be the byproduct of them not discussing things fully in advance with 2PlayerProductions, so they felt obligated to give a percentage-based cut to them as their Kickstarter exploded and people started saying "backed for the documentary!" over and over. Producer Greg explained this in one of the only money related posts, which set the documentary budget at $393k, or 15% after rewards/fees (as of 4/12). It has been implied that they also continue to get a cut of late-backer & bundle net. Many people in the backer forums did try and fail to call scrutiny to the absurdity of these numbers.


That just makes me feel even more strongly that they should have stuck to the small budget AGS style game then. If all they netted from that 3.5 million after taxes, fees, boxed product and the documentary was a million or so then why did they act like they had this huge budget?

It's a cluster fuck no matter how you look at it.
 

Aeschylus

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And this is why it's a good idea to have a design, or at least a scope in place before you go looking for funding.

One thing though -- I don't know where people get the idea that (quality) adventure games are easy or quick to make. King's Quest 6 and Secret of Monkey Island both took about 2 years back in the early 90's; Grim Fandango took 3 years. DF's (revised) schedule is roughly what would be expected for a full-length adventure game. So the problems lie in ambition and mismanagement, not particular incompetence in the dev process.
 

Metro

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Still trying to understand why it takes $400,000 to make a fairly simple documentary that covers the work of... maybe two dozen people?
 

DalekFlay

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One thing though -- I don't know where people get the idea that (quality) adventure games are easy or quick to make. King's Quest 6 and Secret of Monkey Island both took about 2 years back in the early 90's; Grim Fandango took 3 years. DF's (revised) schedule is roughly what would be expected for a full-length adventure game. So the problems lie in ambition and mismanagement, not particular incompetence in the dev process.


Even assuming they were down to 1.5 million after everything was taken out of it, that's still 2 years of salary for what... 8 people? With today's market that is plenty of time and manpower to make a point and click adventure game, as I am sure many other developers could testify.

As you say the issue is scope, which shouldn't have been an issue since they were funded to make a point and click adventure game.
 

Direwolf

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Still trying to understand why it takes $400,000 to make a fairly simple documentary that covers the work of... maybe two dozen people?

Greed. Once they saw that the budget was much bigger than expected they bullshat their way into more money.
 

Aeschylus

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Even assuming they were down to 1.5 million after everything was taken out of it, that's still 2 years of salary for what... 8 people? With today's market that is plenty of time and manpower to make a point and click adventure game, as I am sure many other developers could testify.
That at least they were fairly upfront about. Their total budget (sans documentary, rewards, and fees) was $2,232,465. Where all that goes? I don't know, I've never run a game studio before. Given that SRR burned through 1.2m in under a year, and LSL:Reloaded was in the 'red' when they released their expenditures don't seem to be hugely out of the ordinary among KS projects given that they're up close to 1.5 years now.
As you say the issue is scope, which shouldn't have been an issue since they were funded to make a point and click adventure game.

Yes, scope is the biggest problem, though I don't see how it being a P&C adventure game in particular means that scope should not be an issue. They can vary as much as any other genre.
 
Self-Ejected

Cosmic Misogynerd

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Some people's comments on the Kickstarter:

To the upset backers, take a step back and put things into perspective. This kickstarter was always about the journey, that was clearly stated up front and where we are on the road has been communicated regularly.

I, for one, am willing to wait as long as it takes. As Miyamoto once said: "A delayed game is eventually good. A rushed game is bad forever."

I'm still waiting for J_C and company to come here and defend his beloved Double Fine.
 

Mrowak

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Project: Eternity
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fine-adventure/posts/527683


Hello, Backers of Adventure!

Those of you who have been following along in the documentary know about the design vs. money tension we’ve had on this project since the early days. Even though we received much more money from our Kickstarter than we, or anybody anticipated, that didn’t stop me from getting excited and designing a game so big that it would need even more money.

I think I just have an idea in my head about how big an adventure game should be, so it’s hard for me to design one that’s much smaller than Grim Fandango or Full Throttle. There’s just a certain amount of scope needed to create a complex puzzle space and to develop a real story. At least with my brain, there is.

So we have been looking for ways to improve our project’s efficiency while reducing scope where we could along the way. All while looking for additional funds from bundle revenue, ports, etc. But when we finished the final in-depth schedule recently it was clear that these opportunistic methods weren’t going to be enough.

We looked into what it would take to finish just first half of our game—Act 1. And the numbers showed it coming in July of next year. Not this July, but July 2014. For just the first half. The full game was looking like 2015! My jaw hit the floor.

This was a huge wake-up call for all of us. If this were true, we weren’t going to have to cut the game in half, we were going to have to cut it down by 75%! What would be left? How would we even cut it down that far? Just polish up the rooms we had and ship those? Reboot the art style with a dramatically simpler look? Remove the Boy or Girl from the story? Yikes! Sad faces all around.

Would we, instead, try to find more money? You guys have been been very generous in the tip jar (thanks!) but this is a larger sum of money we were talking about. Asking a publisher for the money was out of the question because it would violate the spirit of the Kickstarter, and also, publishers. Going back to Kickstarter for it seemed wrong. Clearly, any overages were going to have to be paid by Double Fine, with our own money from the sales of our other games. That actually makes a lot of sense and we feel good about it. We have been making more money since we began self-publishing our games, but unfortunately it still would not be enough.

Then we had a strange idea. What if we made some modest cuts in order to finish the first half of the game by January instead of July, and then released that finished, polished half of the game on Steam Early Access? Backers would still have the option of not looking at it, of course, but those who were sick of waiting wouldn’t have to wait any more. They could play the first half of the game in January!

We were always planning to release the beta on Steam, but in addition to that we now have Steam Early Access, which is a new opportunity that actually lets you charge money for pre-release content. That means we could actually sell this early access version of the game to the public at large, and use that money to fund the remaining game development. The second part of the game would come in a free update a few months down the road, closer to April-May.

:retarded:

Okay, it's true, Double Fine cannot into project management. :facepalm: :facepalm:

Mrowak This is what you're worried that Obsidian will do.

You know, I'd like to gloat in the spotlight, laughing histerically at their incompetence seeing how my fears came true at least in their case, but somehow I cannot. :(

Poor buggers. With that second kicksterter (the money from which they are going to use to finance their first game => financial mismanagement 101) they are going to dig themseves deeper and deeper in shit.

Btw, shouldn't we change the title tag to :decline: ?
 

Metro

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Don't worry, the third Kickstarter will get them the funding to finish Massive Chalice.
 

Mrowak

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Sep 26, 2008
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Project: Eternity
Don't worry, the third Kickstarter will get them the funding to finish Massive Chalice.

Frankly, the moment they started their second Kickstarter while being in difficult financial situation was a dead giveaway they were going to shit. Now I'm kinda worried about inXile and Torment. Suppose they mismanage the founds to support Wasteland 2?
 

tuluse

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Still trying to understand why it takes $400,000 to make a fairly simple documentary that covers the work of... maybe two dozen people?
5 guys shooting the documentary for 2 years, sounds about right honestly.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Don't worry, the third Kickstarter will get them the funding to finish Massive Chalice.

Frankly, the moment they started their second Kickstarter while being in difficult financial situation was a dead giveaway they were going to shit. Now I'm kinda worried about inXile and Torment. Suppose they mismanage the founds to support Wasteland 2?
I'm begging to all Gods that it isn't the case.
Some people's comments on the Kickstarter:

To the upset backers, take a step back and put things into perspective. This kickstarter was always about the journey, that was clearly stated up front and where we are on the road has been communicated regularly.

I, for one, am willing to wait as long as it takes. As Miyamoto once said: "A delayed game is eventually good. A rushed game is bad forever."

I'm still waiting for J_C and company to come here and defend his beloved Double Fine.
What do you expect me to do? To bash DF to hell and laugh on their problems like many other ITT? Sorry, I can't laugh at the misery of people who made brought us good games in the past and are creative, talented people.

Have they mismanaged their KS? Yes, no doubt about it. What else can I say? They wanted to make a very very good, long p 'n c adventure, which costs more then they expected. And now they are in damage control mode, can't fault them for that. They should have sticked to a simpler looking and simpler game, like other said (Gemini Rue for example) in the vein of the older games. As someone above mentioned, they probably wanted to make a AAA adventure game, which was a mistake.

That said, it's good that they are trying to control the problem, and making the game episodic is not necesserily a bad thing. And If they release the game by April 2014, they will finish the game in 2 years, which is acceptable for any full fledged videogame. I just hope they really can finish it by then.

This of course doesn't bode well for Massive Chalice. I would advise them bring their heads back from the clouds, and make it a simple looking, very oldschool tactical game.
 

keppj0nes

Educated
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May 4, 2008
Messages
77
One thing I think international people miss out on is that this company has had an absurd number of employees for the U.S. economic situation of the last few years. Their office is in very expensive space and wages there are higher. It blows me away how many people show up in the videos, and theres probably more you don't see. My company has half the number of people it had a few years ago because of cut-backs, but Doublefine seems like the kind of place that is "too nice" to fire anyone. It's too bad the kickstarter money seems like it goes into the company instead of going into just the project. Regardless of what game sales they're receiving, They've used that money to sustain themselves through inappropriate side projects like amnesia fortnight and massive chalice pre-development.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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Jul 11, 2004
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Oh dear.

Don't worry, the third Kickstarter will get them the funding to finish Massive Chalice.
Frankly, the moment they started their second Kickstarter while being in difficult financial situation was a dead giveaway they were going to shit. Now I'm kinda worried about inXile and Torment. Suppose they mismanage the founds to support Wasteland 2?
I'm begging to all Gods that it isn't the case.
It isn't the case.
 
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Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
All I know is, honestly, I could have made AT LEAST 10 games in the next five years for all that bread!


Bt

Well, when they did gathered so much money, at first I thought "Cool, they can make two games instead of one". Oh, the irony.

Suddenly 18 million dollars for Psychonauts 2 seems a little bit small amount with this managing skills of DF.
 

J_C

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Oh dear.

Don't worry, the third Kickstarter will get them the funding to finish Massive Chalice.
Frankly, the moment they started their second Kickstarter while being in difficult financial situation was a dead giveaway they were going to shit. Now I'm kinda worried about inXile and Torment. Suppose they mismanage the founds to support Wasteland 2?
I'm begging to all Gods that it isn't the case.
It isn't the case.
What's you opinion on DF's problem by the way? Do you think that they mismanaged their project, or making an adventure game really costs this much. If the latter, how does inXile manages WAsteland 2, when a CRPG needs more work, and you have gathered somewhat similar funds.
 

DalekFlay

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Suddenly 18 million dollars for Psychonauts 2 seems a little bit small amount with this managing skills of DF.


I'm reminded that Notch quicky backed away from funding that, perhaps with good reason.
 

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