Game News Brian Heins introduces Tyranny's Disfavored faction at Polygon

[Neanderthal]

Was it somebody here who brought up metalurgy, troop numbers, the Bronze Age, Hoplites or Peltasts?

 

[DeepOcean]

If you say:

Guys, I wanna do a Dragon Ball Z RPG where people use some bronze armor just to look cool and get the girls.

I say you are honest.

Now that is different from:

Guys, we totally don't want to make Dragon Ball Z, despite the animu super powers, we totally take history seriously but we don't know what an hoplite is. Trust us, okay?

That I call it PR bullshit.

 

[abnaxus]

Kyros

 

[Sannom]

That's Tunon, not Kyros.

 

[Illuvatard]

Well the hoplites were light compared to the Spartoi or however you spell it. They were probably pretty useless out of formation though.

They actually did know how to make 'good' bronze armor, they were a lot smarter then than most people today I am sure. The reason they used super heavy armor for their 'plate' armor which weighed huge amounts was because it was very very different in purpose than standard infantry.

These guys were like the airborn special forces today, the green berets. Not just in that they were elite troops but because they were a highly mobile force. They would be brought in by chariot in their nearly impenetrable armor (you can make bronze that is much stronger and harder than steel if it has enough tin) and leap off and put the hurt on the enemy. It would be like the terminator showing up and just mowing down dozens of infantrymen. Then when they got tired from fighting in very heavy armor another chariot with more guys would show up with fresh troops, and the tired troops would "tag out" as it were and retreat back to the reserve area to rest again.

Philip and Alexander also had basically mounted knights with very long spears. They didn't really use them as lances though, but this is another place that really heavy armor is useful.

For footmen they had a kind of cloth armor with many layers of cloth pressed together. This sounds lame, but in recent tests reconstructions were able to repel arrows much better than medieval armors.

 

[MRY]

Plus, I've already recklessly suggested he was lifted from Ronan the Accuser!

 

[hpstg]

The George Lucas level of naming things (The Dickbolt Shaggers), and not even following the popular archetype of the fucking hoplites, of all things, are slowly killing any goodwill I had towards this.

Even forgetting all the rest of the mess with iron etc, just the hoplites thing is helpless. I mean, the quintessential "ancient warrior" archetypes are more or less the hoplite, the "Viking" and the "samurai". For what kind of retard is this marketed towards, that even the "hoplites" from the 300 need to be changed into something else for the "audience" to get it?

Is this a sample of the depth we can expect from the supposed moral ambiguity and the rest?

What the actual fuck Obsidian.

 

[Illuvatard]

Well the hoplites were light compared to the Spartoi or however you spell it. They were probably pretty useless out of formation though.

They actually did know how to make 'good' bronze armor, they were a lot smarter then than most people today I am sure. The reason they used super heavy armor for their 'plate' armor which weighed huge amounts was because it was very very different in purpose than standard infantry.

These guys were like the airborn special forces today, the green berets. Not just in that they were elite troops but because they were a highly mobile force. They would be brought in by chariot in their nearly impenetrable armor (you can make bronze that is much stronger and harder than steel if it has enough tin) and leap off and put the hurt on the enemy. It would be like the terminator showing up and just mowing down dozens of infantrymen. Then when they got tired from fighting in very heavy armor another chariot with more guys would show up with fresh troops, and the tired troops would "tag out" as it were and retreat back to the reserve area to rest again.

Philip and Alexander also had basically mounted knights with very long spears. They didn't really use them as lances though, but this is another place that really heavy armor is useful.

For footmen they had a kind of cloth armor with many layers of cloth pressed together. This sounds lame, but in recent tests reconstructions were able to repel arrows much better than medieval armors.

 

[Illuvatard]

The George Lucas level of naming things (The Dickbolt Shaggers), and not even following the popular archetype of the fucking hoplites, of all things, are slowly killing any goodwill I had towards this.

Even forgetting all the rest of the mess with iron etc, just the hoplites thing is helpless. I mean, the quintessential "ancient warrior" archetypes are more or less the hoplite, the "Viking" and the "samurai". For what kind of retard is this marketed towards, that even the "hoplites" from the 300 need to be changed into something else for the "audience" to get it?

Is this a sample of the depth we can expect from the supposed moral ambiguity and the rest?

What the actual fuck Obsidian.

This has been a big issue for RPGs since the 90s.

Make game DnD nerds are gonna sperg over...cater to the most retarded segments of society and then wonder why you go out of business. Marketing 'logic' in a nutshell.

 

[hpstg]

It's not even the big segment. People with money to buy pseudo bronze age RPGs, have at least a vague idea of what an hoplite is. I'm starting to believe that whoever wrote/said that doesn't know.

 

[Illuvatard]

Yeah, it's kind of sad when their research doesn't even make it to "read wikipedia entry on bronze age" levels.

Well hopefully we can romance these iron walkers at least. They sound so butch.

 

[J_C]

They are not copying the bronze age of our history, neither the hoplites and shit. They take inspiration from that but that is as far as they go. Fucking ridiculous that everybody is riding on this for weeks now. Autism, autism never changes.

 

[Darth Roxor]

They are not copying the bronze age of our history, neither the hoplites and shit. They take inspiration from that but that is as far as they go. Fucking ridiculous that everybody is riding on this for weeks now. Autism, autism never changes.

Supporting them is a group called Crescent Runners. They’re the Greek hoplites. Much more like skirmishers, they’ll run ahead of the army and harass the enemy with javelins and other thrown attacks trying to provoke the enemy into the charge, at which point the crescent runners run back behind the phalanx

 

[J_C]

They are not copying the bronze age of our history, neither the hoplites and shit. They take inspiration from that but that is as far as they go. Fucking ridiculous that everybody is riding on this for weeks now. Autism, autism never changes.

Supporting them is a group called Crescent Runners. They’re the Greek hoplites. Much more like skirmishers, they’ll run ahead of the army and harass the enemy with javelins and other thrown attacks trying to provoke the enemy into the charge, at which point the crescent runners run back behind the phalanx

They are making a fantasy version of some of our history, they won't copy the greek hoplites 1:1, that is obvious the way they desing them.

 

[Darth Roxor]

They're the Greek hoplites. Except they are not.

makes u wonder why they even namedrop them

also, a sneak peek from my upcoming World War 1 inspired rpg

Supporting them is a group called Crescent Runners. They're the Waffen SS. Much more like skirmishers, they’ll run ahead of the army and harass the enemy with javelins and other thrown attacks trying to provoke the enemy into the charge, at which point the crescent runners run back behind the phalanx

 

[J_C]

They're the Greek hoplites. Except they are not.

makes u wonder why they even namedrop them

also, a sneak peek from my upcoming World War 1 inspired rpg

Supporting them is a group called Crescent Runners. They're the Waffen SS. Much more like skirmishers, they’ll run ahead of the army and harass the enemy with javelins and other thrown attacks trying to provoke the enemy into the charge, at which point the crescent runners run back behind the phalanx

Well it is indeed pretty stupid if you put it this way. :D

Maybe they just namedrop them because the unit will have a similar armament like the hoplites (bronze armor and shield, spear). Hm... it is falling apart quickly, isn't it? I don't fucking know what did they namedrop them. Maybe to gather some cool points from the unawashed masses.

But in the end, they are clearly not designing the game with real history and accurate historical armies in mind. They are namedropping them, get a few inspirations from them, but that is as far accuracy goes. And why should i care about these? If the game will be good, and they build an interesting worlds, the fuck I care if the Crescent Runners, which were inspired by the Greek Hoplites are not working exactly like the Greek Hoplites.

 

[Rev]

Shit J_C, I'm quite the Obsdian fanboy myself and I have some faith that Tyranny will be at least decent, even if many of the news about it were discouraging, but Heins' reference to Greek hoplites in that way just didn't make sense.
He fucked up, that's it. No one forced him to mention real historical war units or anything, so he should've at least checked Wikipedia before namedropping hoplites and phalanges.
You can't defend everything he say because you like Obsidian and want their games to be good. I want that too, but if their devs say dumb shit it should just be acknoledged.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Welcome to another episode of "Game Developer Inspired By A Subject He Thought He Knew Something About, But Really Doesn't".

Just when I was starting to convince myself that this could be playable without me getting annoyed by childish level of writing and worldbuilding.

 

[Zanzoken]

You must be a true optimist sir, because here's what I've seen so far:

- Popamole mechanics
- Derpy worldbuilding
- Cliche fantasy writing and characters
- Boring art style
- Cartoonish themes ("what if evil won...")

Meaning there has never been any evidence whatsoever to me that this would be playable. I've said it before and I'll say it again... Tyranny is the worst RPG pitch I have ever seen from a respected developer. Just complete shit from top to bottom.

 

[Illuvatard]

The only way they can save the game now is to have the player character faction be muslim and smash the EU once and for all. I mean the evil fauxgreek empire.

 

[DeepOcean]

Maybe they just namedrop them because the unit will have a similar armament like the hoplites (bronze armor and shield, spear). Hm... it is falling apart quickly, isn't it? I don't fucking know what did they namedrop them. Maybe to gather some cool points from the unawashed masses.

But in the end, they are clearly not designing the game with real history and accurate historical armies in mind. They are namedropping them, get a few inspirations from them, but that is as far accuracy goes. And why should i care about these? If the game will be good, and they build an interesting worlds, the fuck I care if the Crescent Runners, which were inspired by the Greek Hoplites are not working exactly like the Greek Hoplites.

It is a matter of respect, if your doctor claims he is a really good doctor then he says you are possessed by an evil spirit and that you need exorcism by him hitting you in the head with a rock, you will start worrying he is competent. Remember those imbeciles at Obsidian are being paid to make games, they aren't retards discussing on a forum, if I were paid to do something, I would fucking know the best about it, there are no fucking excuses. I demand a degree of professionalism from game developers, they aren't supposed to be fucking children and ignorant teenagers. When I do my job, people can sue me if I'm shitty at it and don't have a clue about what I'm talking about, why shouldn't they be treated as adults?

 

[MRY]

I would fucking know the best about it, there are no fucking excuses

FWIW, this turns out to be really hard to pull off. I think it's reasonable to ask for a certain degree of diligence, but expecting a game designer to be the best in Bronze Age lore is kind of silly. I've spent years* studying the sagas and eddas and Viking age and Old English for Fallen Gods, and there are dilettantes on this very forum who know more than I do. (* Granted, we're talking about like 30-45 minutes a day of study, but still.) The amount of subject matter in any given area, even a small area, is so great and there are so many smart, curious people out there playing games, it's basically impossible to "defend the borders" as it were. Someone will always be able to spot flaws in your (mis)understanding of the subject matter. That's why I don't think there's anything wrong with their getting bronze/iron wrong, it's mostly just a tone issue in how they're presenting this stuff.

The hoplite mishap is a bit different, but that could be a simple as his having misspoken during the interview.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

That's different though, nobody expects indies to spend a lifetime on research before making a game losely based on history. But this is Obsidian, AAA developer charging AAA prices, they can easily hire a PhD to consult if they're too lazy to do the work. We're willing to give them more money because they're established studio with decades of solid track record, but as Confucius said, with great power comes great responsibility.

 

[Israfael]

it's basically impossible to "defend the borders" as it were

Well, the borders are, in my opinion, your own limitations, and if people think themselves smarter than they really are, shit always happens. They could have hired a B.Sc in history or something like that to fix the inconsistencies before going public

 

[Irenaeus]

I hate to agree with IHHN (because he's an asshole), but he's right here. Either study yourself, get a historian or shut up about history.