Bethesda General Discussion Thread

[Poseidon00]

Were dungeons ever any good in The Elder Scrolls

The non-MQ dungeons in Daggerfall.

Some of the main quest dungeons are pretty good for their time and aren't a headache to explore. Shedungent and the Direnni Tower come to mind. The castle dungeons aren't bad either, probably one of the only places that feel coherent.

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

There is no way in hell Oblivion is better than Skyrim. That's how bad Oblivion is.

I can see WHY people hate Oblivion. And I also understand WHY it's very bad.

But, despite being mostly gutted, Oblivion has at least a hint of RPG systems still left over from Morrowind. The skills mean something, the quests often have multiple endings or non-combat solutions, and it's possible to build different characters of different styles.

Skyrim doing away with everything and boiling it all down to Perks was a horrible decision. And most of Skyrims quests are basically just "go here and kill this thing". Skyrim offers nothing but relatively lackluster dungeon crawling through the same 7 Draugr Ruins. Oblivion suffers the same problem with it's locations but I would at least argue there's something resembling a game despite that.

Everyone complains about Oblivions horrid levelling system, which is an absolutely fair complaint, but Combat is also far less important in Oblivion than it is in Skyrim. I wouldn't exactly say Oblivion is mature and adult, but it's at least interested in doing some more mature things with it's writing, like giving you troll quests designed to kill you, having some things like the thieves guild be semi-hidden, etc. Some minor things an intelligent player might actually get something enjoyable out of. Skyrim offers nothing outside of it's lackluster combat system. All the quests are rote and boring, and there's no thought required at any point while playing.

Don't get me wrong, Oblivion is a fucking AWFUL videogame. But it's at least possible to have fun in Oblivion because there's at least things to do outside of visiting the same 5 dungeons over and over again.

I genuinely can't see how anyone can see Oblivion as being worse than Skyrim. I understand if it's more disappointing, because it was hyped quite a bit and was a very bad follow up to Morrowind, but when it comes to actual quality, I would describe Oblivion as a role-playing videogame (even if it is a bad one), Skyrim not so much. I guess Skyrim is more of an autobattler where you press mouse 1 occasionally.

What are the worst parts of each game in the series and spin-off? Anyone have a detailed list and maybe explanation? And I mean vanilla but maybe patched. Hell, original release then current or best patch. Just no mods.

The quick version is:

- Arena/Daggerfall: Can't comment as I haven't played them.
- Morrowind: Some mechanics/systems are extremely badly designed - poor race/class/starsign balance, front-loaded endurance health multiplier, exploitable NPC bartering, enchanted item auto recharging, etc (I should shill the Comprehensive Rebalance mod, which fixes a lot of these issues) - but it's biggest issues are technical. The world is puny and many NPCs have exactly the same text blurb, which can take you out of the experience. I know people decry "voiced" dialog ruining everything, but Morrowind has the opposite problem, to the point where NPCs feel like dialogue vending machines or wikipedia pages sometimes. You can go to the big "trading hub" in Vivek and it's like 4 people standing around some tables, a lot of areas of the world just feel tiny and pathetic if you actually look at them too closely, mostly due to technical limitations of the time. The best way to enjoy Morrowind's world is to let it all wash over you without looking at it too closely, it certainly feels grand when you're doing pilgrimages and adventuring or reading books about ancient beings or hunting down ancient necromancers for a guild, it only really falls apart when you look at the details and notice just how small and pathetic most settlements are. Despite it's issues, Morrowind is still the best game in the series by far, as the rest are all FAR more broken.
- Oblivion: Horrendous NPC scaling. Was extremely overhyped and a very poor follow up to Morrowind. Most of the writing, graphics, UI, etc reek of the mid 2000s Xbox era. Everything is big, janky, and dumb.
- Skyrim: Definitely the smoothest, most accessible game in the series. But it's completely braindead. You can play through the entire game without activating a single neuron. Not only is it pathetically easy, it basically makes every character good at everything, and most of the good perks are no brainers. TES has always had bad RPG mechanics, but this barely even qualifies. Skyrim is the epitome of game sludge. A boring, non-toxic, grey mixture of goo with perfect consistency and no excitement to be had.

The worst part is, Skyrim is still orders of magnitude better than Fallout 4, which is orders of magnitude better than Fallout 76 and Starfield. Bethesda keeps getting worse, and they keep getting rewarded every time they get worse.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Doesn't that happen a fair bit in game dev; the first part is usually done pretty well but later due to rushed time by their overseers, the games take a nosedive or end in a putter or are ultra unfinished?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

The world is puny and many NPCs have exactly the same text blurb, which can take you out of the experience.

Lol. Well, that never seems to change in this series.

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

The world is puny and many NPCs have exactly the same text blurb, which can take you out of the experience.

Lol. Well, that never seems to change in this series.

I would argue Morrowind is actually worse than the others in this particular part.

Oblivion et al might have horrible writing and only 5 voice actors, but there's some effort to make each NPC at least slightly unique, even if they only say a few lines. In Morrowind you will literally be surrounded by a croud of people and they all have the same canned wall of text.

 

[Yosharian]

There is no way in hell Oblivion is better than Skyrim. That's how bad Oblivion is.

I can see WHY people hate Oblivion. And I also understand WHY it's very bad.

But, despite being mostly gutted, Oblivion has at least a hint of RPG systems still left over from Morrowind. The skills mean something, the quests often have multiple endings or non-combat solutions, and it's possible to build different characters of different styles.

Skyrim doing away with everything and boiling it all down to Perks was a horrible decision. And most of Skyrims quests are basically just "go here and kill this thing". Skyrim offers nothing but relatively lackluster dungeon crawling through the same 7 Draugr Ruins. Oblivion suffers the same problem with it's locations but I would at least argue there's something resembling a game despite that.

Everyone complains about Oblivions horrid levelling system, which is an absolutely fair complaint, but Combat is also far less important in Oblivion than it is in Skyrim. I wouldn't exactly say Oblivion is mature and adult, but it's at least interested in doing some more mature things with it's writing, like giving you troll quests designed to kill you, having some things like the thieves guild be semi-hidden, etc. Some minor things an intelligent player might actually get something enjoyable out of. Skyrim offers nothing outside of it's lackluster combat system. All the quests are rote and boring, and there's no thought required at any point while playing.

Don't get me wrong, Oblivion is a fucking AWFUL videogame. But it's at least possible to have fun in Oblivion because there's at least things to do outside of visiting the same 5 dungeons over and over again.

I genuinely can't see how anyone can see Oblivion as being worse than Skyrim.

Yeah I pretty much agree with this.

I guess I would explain it as, Skyrim is a better game. It's more polished, it plays better due to the more advanced engine, it has better combat, with mods it actually has potential to become a decent RPG, etc.

Oblivion has better credentials in the actual old school RPG sense, like Morrowind, yes. But it's actually a shit game. I despise playing it now. It feels fucking shit.

And I don't feel this way about Morrowind, I regularly play that still, and love it to bits despite its flaws and dated gameplay.

I am looking forward to Skyblivion because Skyrim's gameplay + the good bits from Oblivion actually has potential. Unlike Skywind which is just removing all the charm from Morrowind.

Oblivion has no charm.

 

[Yosharian]

The world is puny and many NPCs have exactly the same text blurb, which can take you out of the experience.

Lol. Well, that never seems to change in this series.

I would argue Morrowind is actually worse than the others in this particular part.

Oblivion et al might have horrible writing and only 5 voice actors, but there's some effort to make each NPC at least slightly unique, even if they only say a few lines. In Morrowind you will literally be surrounded by a croud of people and they all have the same canned wall of text.

I think you really underestimate how fucking annoying it is to have the same 5 people voice every fucking NPC.

With Morrowind now we have fully voiced NPCs via AI btw. Much better than anything in Oblivion.

 

[markec]

There is no way in hell Oblivion is better than Skyrim. That's how bad Oblivion is.

I can see WHY people hate Oblivion. And I also understand WHY it's very bad.

But, despite being mostly gutted, Oblivion has at least a hint of RPG systems still left over from Morrowind. The skills mean something, the quests often have multiple endings or non-combat solutions, and it's possible to build different characters of different styles.

Yes Oblivion has more complex RPG system them Skyrim but that means nothing if you have few ways to utilize them. There are quite of few Skyrim quests that have multiple endings and non combat solutions. In Skyrim you can also build different character archetypes.

Skyrim doing away with everything and boiling it all down to Perks was a horrible decision.

Agreed.

And most of Skyrims quests are basically just "go here and kill this thing".

Not true, there are quite a few quests that centers about stealing, persuasion or intrigue.

Skyrim offers nothing but relatively lackluster dungeon crawling through the same 7 Draugr Ruins. Oblivion suffers the same problem with it's locations but I would at least argue there's something resembling a game despite that.

Not true, Skyrim has far superior dungeon design then Oblivion as they have elements of environmental storytelling, scripted events, some creative encounter and level design. Unlike in Oblivion where every single dungeon looks and plays the same.

Everyone complains about Oblivions horrid levelling system, which is an absolutely fair complaint, but Combat is also far less important in Oblivion than it is in Skyrim.

In both games you spend 90% of the time exploring the world and dungeons and fighting enemies. Level scaling makes 90% of the gameplay completely pointless in Oblivion.

I wouldn't exactly say Oblivion is mature and adult, but it's at least interested in doing some more mature things with it's writing, like giving you troll quests designed to kill you, having some things like the thieves guild be semi-hidden, etc. Some minor things an intelligent player might actually get something enjoyable out of. Skyrim offers nothing outside of it's lackluster combat system. All the quests are rote and boring, and there's no thought required at any point while playing.

You obviously havent played much of Skyrim or rushed trough the game because as mentioned Skyrim offers quite a few side quests that offer multiple solutions/non combat situations and dark/mature themes.

Don't get me wrong, Oblivion is a fucking AWFUL videogame. But it's at least possible to have fun in Oblivion because there's at least things to do outside of visiting the same 5 dungeons over and over again.

You can have fun in Oblivion if you actively avoid 90% of the content and focus on few side quests. Also maybe you should have tried playing Skyrim without only visiting same 5 dungeons over and over again.

I genuinely can't see how anyone can see Oblivion as being worse than Skyrim. I understand if it's more disappointing, because it was hyped quite a bit and was a very bad follow up to Morrowind, but when it comes to actual quality, I would describe Oblivion as a role-playing videogame (even if it is a bad one), Skyrim not so much. I guess Skyrim is more of an autobattler where you press mouse 1 occasionally.

To repeat myself, in both games you spend 90% of the time exploring the world and dungeons. Oblivion has easily the worst world design of any Bethesda games, worst dungeon design of all Bethesda games and a cherry on top horrible leveling scaling system making 90% of the game completely irredeemably horrible. And its not like that few interesting side quests are some peak writing that makes the game worth playing for. Instead they are just fine or ok quests, not something that I would suffer through 90% of garbage playtime to reach for.

 

[Orange Clock]

But, despite being mostly gutted, Oblivion has at least a hint of RPG systems still left over from Morrowind. The skills mean something, the quests often have multiple endings or non-combat solutions, and it's possible to build different characters of different styles.

Maybe we played different games or something, but of what multiple endings or non-combat solutions in Oblivion quest are you talking about? Are you referring to using sneak or illusion to complete quests? Well, same could be done in Skyrim too, but I won’t call it a “solution”, rather a way you achieve said solution/ending, and I can’t recall multiple endings or even choices in Oblivion quests/questlines (maybe some minor ones like failing Thieves guild initiation or fighter’s guild protection quests, maybe final fight in Arena; but all of them boil down to same conclusion). While in Skyrim you have mutually exclusive branching paths with some C&C. (Legion/Stormcloaks, Greybeards/Blades, Dark Brotherhood/Penitus Oculatus, daedric quests, redguard’s quest etc).
It’s possible to build different characters in Skyrim too, sure you can easily switch between them, cause that’s the direction they went with: one long and continuous playthrough compared to Oblivion’s lack of any direction, except auto-level everything and call it a day.

 

[Butter]

Not true, Skyrim has far superior dungeon design then Oblivion as they have elements of environmental storytelling, scripted events, some creative encounter and level design. Unlike in Oblivion where every single dungeon looks and plays the same.

Dude there's no game on earth with worse dungeon design than Skyrim. They're straight corridors occasionally broken up by """puzzles""" or copy-pasted encounters against a single enemy type.

It's peak comedy that Skyrim gives you a local map when you're in a dungeon.

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

Not true, Skyrim has far superior dungeon design then Oblivion as they have elements of environmental storytelling, scripted events, some creative encounter and level design. Unlike in Oblivion where every single dungeon looks and plays the same.

Dude there's no game on earth with worse dungeon design than Skyrim. They're straight corridors occasionally broken up by """puzzles""" or copy-pasted encounters against a single enemy type.

It's peak comedy that Skyrim gives you a local map when you're in a dungeon.

What are you even talking about? "Spin the pillars to match the icons" and "put the hand in the slot" are the most intelligent puzzles ever designed, and you need to be a high-IQ gamer to solve them!

But, despite being mostly gutted, Oblivion has at least a hint of RPG systems still left over from Morrowind. The skills mean something, the quests often have multiple endings or non-combat solutions, and it's possible to build different characters of different styles.

Maybe we played different games or something, but of what multiple endings or non-combat solutions in Oblivion quest are you talking about? Are you referring to using sneak or illusion to complete quests? Well, same could be done in Skyrim too, but I won’t call it a “solution”, rather a way you achieve said solution/ending, and I can’t recall multiple endings or even choices in Oblivion quests/questlines (maybe some minor ones like failing Thieves guild initiation or fighter’s guild protection quests, maybe final fight in Arena; but all of them boil down to same conclusion). While in Skyrim you have mutually exclusive branching paths with some C&C. (Legion/Stormcloaks, Greybeards/Blades, Dark Brotherhood/Penitus Oculatus, daedric quests, redguard’s quest etc).
It’s possible to build different characters in Skyrim too, sure you can easily switch between them, cause that’s the direction they went with: one long and continuous playthrough compared to Oblivion’s lack of any direction, except auto-level everything and call it a day.

Well for instance, there's one quest that involves finding who stole a painting from a castle, which is essentially open-ended. It doesn't hold your hand (I mean it kind of does, but it does it through requiring you to comprehend and understand unreliable dialogue rather than a big fat quest marker saying "search this room for a clue!!!"), and at the end you can essentially blame whoever you want, which will remove them from the game permanently.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Canvas_the_Castle

There are several quests like this, and I don't remember anything equivalent existing in Skyrim. When Skyrim DOES offer open-ended quests, it's always "Follow quest marker to option A, OR follow quest marker to option B". Even though it's a choice, it never requires any thought, reasoning or intelligence whatsoever.

The quest that made me completely uninstall Skyrim was the "discover why the house you bought is haunted" quest (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_House_of_Horrors). When it was first given to me, it was presented in such a way that I thought it would maybe be an investigation, and allow me to think about something. It uses wording like "investigate the abandoned house", which I thought meant I would be able to use my deductive reasoning skills to investigate the abandoned house. What I ended up getting was a completely linear quest that essentially amounted to following a quest marker to pre-determined points in the house, and not make a single worthwhile decision or observation. It was designed as a theme park ride, nothing else. This is par for the course for all quests in Skyrim and it makes the game a miserable experience to try and actually play.

Oblivion is definitely not the smartest or most well written game out there, and it's FAR from perfect, but in comparison to Oblivion, Skyrim is literally a game for retards

 

[NecroLord]

Moreover, there are people who got into Skyrim because of marketing, then tried Oblivion or Morrowind and found them better. Many won't even try though, because a lot of people often assume old means worse, but some do not and give them a try to enjoy them even more than the newer game they got first.

True.

Oblivion is orders of magnitude better than Skyrim, and I fucking hate Oblivion.

Oblivion is easily the worst Bethesda game ever made and its not even close. People who deny this truth are delusional.

Oblivion was the most disappointing Bethesda game, but every game released by Beth after it was even worse.

Every single game after Oblivion is better then Oblivion and I dont consider any Beth game after Morrowind to be good. The level scaling alone makes Oblivion unplayable, and that is just one of many games problems.

Only thing it does better then Skyrim is some minor gameplay elements like being able to make spells and some side quests being more memorable.

Hate level scaling.
It's just dumb.

 

[NecroLord]

Were dungeons ever any good in The Elder Scrolls

The non-MQ dungeons in Daggerfall.

The unique main story dungeons might take you hours to fully explore.
There are also the randomly generated big ones you find throughout the game world.

 

[Cross]

I guess I would explain it as, Skyrim is a better game. It's more polished, it plays better due to the more advanced engine, it has better combat, with mods it actually has potential to become a decent RPG, etc.

The combat "improvements" in Skyrim are just smoke and mirrors. It's ultimately the same combat system as Oblivion, with the same stiff animations and the same lack of hit reactions. It just feels bad to play.

Oblivion at least keeps enough aspects of its predecessors so you can look forward to creating your own spells or improving your acrobatics skill to jump higher or whatever.

Skyrim removes all of that so all you have left is an action game and the combat in Skyrim, even when judged against the most mediocre action-RPGs, is absolute garbage. There's a reason why everyone playing it defaults to a stealth archer playstyle, which essentially lets you avoid engaging with the combat.

Skyrim is even clunkier than Oblivion in some respects. I forgot about this, but apparently you can't do a running jump in Skyrim, so people had to mod it in.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/489830/discussions/0/312265473877374242/

We can't jump while sprinting? Was it always like that?

 

[Losus4]

Not true, Skyrim has far superior dungeon design then Oblivion as they have elements of environmental storytelling, scripted events, some creative encounter and level design. Unlike in Oblivion where every single dungeon looks and plays the same.

Dude there's no game on earth with worse dungeon design than Skyrim. They're straight corridors occasionally broken up by """puzzles""" or copy-pasted encounters against a single enemy type.

It's peak comedy that Skyrim gives you a local map when you're in a dungeon.

Skyrim's dungeons are generally thought to be an improvement over its predecessors, which imo, is not entirely true.

Firstly, they're way too linear, which turns any open-ended exploration into a corridor walking simulator.
Skyrim's dungeons are more or less straight lines, which destroys any sense of intrigue. You don't so much explore Skyrim dungeons as much as follow them, wacking any moles along the way. Previous games were not so restricted, the moment you enter a dungeon in Oblivion for example, you're often presented with various direction in which you could go, which rewards exploration and makes any discoveries feel earned.

Secondly, they're far too bright, which destroys any atmosphere, again look at the gloomy dungeons of Oblivion, which often require a torch. Dungeons work by playing on that primal fear we have of darkness, so lighting them up like christmas trees is not good.

Third, the tacked-on narratives hurt replayability. By that I mean, the fact that most dungeons come with mini-storylines diminishes the appeal of revisiting them. It's like, "oh here's that mine where the miners dug too deep and uncovered a vampire. Yeah I remember this one."
Replayability is diminished with this approach to dungeon design. Conversely, the lack of narratives of Oblivion dungeons allowed the players imagination to fill in the rest. Admittedly, this made them all a bit generic, but their lighting and non-linear design made up it.
Whenever I find a journal in a Skyrim dungeon telling me about the awful thing that happened there... I'm always left with a feeling of...meh

Fourth, the fact that each dungeon loops around to the start feels far too contrived, and only serves to remind the player they're playing a videogame, rather than immersing them in a believable world, which Morrowind did in spades.
Take the Kwama mines for example... most egg-mines in Morrowind served no function whatsoever, but that's the point... the egg-mines weren't there for the players amusement, they weren't there to reward you with a big pile of loot once you'd wacked enough moles, they were there so the people of Vvardenfell had a food source. That was their purpose and it made Morrowind feel like a real place.

 

[Yosharian]

I guess I would explain it as, Skyrim is a better game. It's more polished, it plays better due to the more advanced engine, it has better combat, with mods it actually has potential to become a decent RPG, etc.

The combat "improvements" in Skyrim are just smoke and mirrors. It's ultimately the same combat system as Oblivion, with the same stiff animations and the same lack of hit reactions. It just feels bad to play.

Oblivion at least keeps enough aspects of its predecessors so you can look forward to creating your own spells or improving your acrobatics skill to jump higher or whatever.

Skyrim removes all of that so all you have left is an action game and the combat in Skyrim, even when judged against the most mediocre action-RPGs, is absolute garbage. There's a reason why everyone playing it defaults to a stealth archer playstyle, which essentially lets you avoid engaging with the combat.

Um. No. Oblivion's combat is much, much worse.

 

[Drakortha]

What is more shit? A dogshit or a catshit?

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

I guess I would explain it as, Skyrim is a better game. It's more polished, it plays better due to the more advanced engine, it has better combat, with mods it actually has potential to become a decent RPG, etc.

The combat "improvements" in Skyrim are just smoke and mirrors. It's ultimately the same combat system as Oblivion, with the same stiff animations and the same lack of hit reactions. It just feels bad to play.

Oblivion at least keeps enough aspects of its predecessors so you can look forward to creating your own spells or improving your acrobatics skill to jump higher or whatever.

Skyrim removes all of that so all you have left is an action game and the combat in Skyrim, even when judged against the most mediocre action-RPGs, is absolute garbage. There's a reason why everyone playing it defaults to a stealth archer playstyle, which essentially lets you avoid engaging with the combat.

Um. No. Oblivion's combat is much, much worse.

Yes and no.

The moment-to-moment combat in Oblivion is definitely way worse. The animations especially are absolutely atrocious.

Skyrim offers much nicer animations during fights, a more "visceral" fighting experience, horse combat, and some nice other things.

The area where Oblivion has it beat is with the skill system. As you reached Journeyman, Master, etc, with various skills, you got some nice combat moves, like sideways disarming attacks, and other things.

Skyrim does offer many of these too, but they are basically just perks. On paper this seems to be mostly the same thing, but combined with the very shallow, easy, lackluster skill system, it no longer feels special getting to a higher rank in a skill and unlocking a cool new ability. I used to get excited getting those cool bonuses in Oblivion, in Skyrim the whole thing is just completely unemotional because it's just another perk in a tree of perks (most of which are boring, like "+5% damage with swords" or whatever).

Not to mention Oblivion also had spellmaking, which is entirely absent from Skyrim, and is one of the most interesting parts of the game for spellcasters.

Skyrim also reduced all the different weapon types and their nuances into a basic "one-handed", "two-handed" and "archery" structure, because it's a game for babies. Morrowind's polearms, long/swort blade, axes, hand to hand, etc are long gone by this point.

The only genuine innovation made by Skyrim was putting spells into the hand slots, but they didn't really do anything worthwhile with it. It's always better to double-up on the same spell rather than using 2 different ones because the bonus you get is huge, switching spells mid combat is super easy anyway, and non-spellcasters will always use a sword/shield or two handed weapon instead of having a spell in one hand. Without mods, "spellsword" builds aren't really viable, and there's very little depth to the spell handedness system.

Skyrim's combat is essentially flashier and more polished, but also more retarded and dumbed down compared to Oblivion and especially compared to Morrowind.

The best combat in TES unironically goes to Morrowind, which I know is a controversial statement that people are going to call me retarded for, but I think there's good evidence to support Morrowind offering the most depth here, once you can get past the annoying "miss" mechanics (which are actually still superior to making everything a sponge, which they did in Oblivion and Skyrim. In Morrowind weapons are deadly, you'll just miss a lot at low skills).

Morrowind combat offers:
- A huge amount of weapon types which are all different, as well as hand to hand and unarmoured skills for monk type characters. This was reduced somewhat in Oblivion and gutted entirely for Skyrim
- Fatigue that actually matters and actually does something in combat rather than being completely useless.
- Weapons that don't feel like you're hitting your enemies with a pool noodle in terms of damage.
- Combat while flying
- The best spellmaking in the entire series, including combining interesting effects in interesting ways for cool/gamebreaking combinations. Oblivion partially had this but it was far more restricted.

 

[markec]

Not true, Skyrim has far superior dungeon design then Oblivion as they have elements of environmental storytelling, scripted events, some creative encounter and level design. Unlike in Oblivion where every single dungeon looks and plays the same.

Dude there's no game on earth with worse dungeon design than Skyrim. They're straight corridors occasionally broken up by """puzzles""" or copy-pasted encounters against a single enemy type.

It's peak comedy that Skyrim gives you a local map when you're in a dungeon.

What are you even talking about? Skyrim's dungeons are extremely high-IQ and require the most intelligent gamers to think for hours.

For instance: You see 3 panels, one has a bird, one a snake, and the other a taurus. Then, you see three pillars which spin. What possible combination could the 3 pillars represent? It's literally IMPOSSIBLE to figure this puzzle out because it requires a team of scientists to really uncover!

Oblivion dungeons caves, forts, mines and Ayleid ruins are all the same, empty rooms and naked walks with different skin, while also being short, they are non linear in a meaning there is two corridors that lead to same room with a treasure chest, with zero creativity or encounter design with everyone just standing waiting for you to arrive and no environmental storytelling.

The first dungeon you find in Skyrim is a small mine featuring bandits talking about current events, mining ore, patrolling, guarding treasure room, sleeping and working on anvil. Both entrances are trapped, there is a draw bridge when lowered triggers a group of bandits to investigate it, it feels like a real place where someone would live. Also it has a hidden loot in few places and a bit of environmental storytelling with a half buried skeleton and his diary.

First fort dungeon in Skyrim you will probably encounter is Fort Greymoor. When coming close you see soldiers in Imperial uniforms on the walls but instead they are dummies in armor and populated by bandits, giving impression that its bandits use it a a ploy to make travelers drop their guard before coming close. Its divided in main building and prison that are connected. In prison you find dead merchants and travelers and lots of looted goods. The main building can be entered via prison, main gate, the roof and sewers. The fort itself like most fort dungeons in Skyrim is completely nonlinear in your way to explore it.

First Draugr ruin you will probably enter is Bleak Falls Barrow. Unlike fort ruins which are mostly completely nonlinear, Draugr ruins are completely linear with minor side paths that lead to treasures. But they often compensate it with environmental storytelling, combat encounters and scripted events. In Bleak Falls Barrow you will find bandits camping and talking about the dungeon, lair of a giant spider, Draugr rising from tombs and ambushing the player leading to several interesting combat encounters.

This is just a beginning of the game, and while there is a lot of boring dungeons in Skyrim there is a quite few interesting ones like huge Blackreach or Nchuand-Zel a dwemer ruins with multiple hubs. Meanwhile as said, every dungeon in Oblivion looks and plays the same with zero creativity involved.

If you like the mechanics of Oblivion more then the one from Skyrim that is fine. If you like side quests of Oblivion then Skyrim that too is fine. But to argue that Oblivion dungeons are better is nothing short of delusional. Because while Skyrim dungeons arent too great the one in Oblivion are just horrible.

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

This is just a beginning of the game, and while there is a lot of boring dungeons in Skyrim there is a quite few interesting ones. Meanwhile as said, every dungeon in Oblivion looks and plays the same with zero creativity involved.

I hope you realize that you said this immediately after describing a dungeon in Oblivion that had a non-linear path, environmental storytelling, and feels "lived in" by the way they set up dummies to trick travellers. I think it's fair to say the Fort Greymoor and Bleak Falls Barrow are largely equivalent when it comes to environmental storytelling and overall design as part of the game world.

But if you want to compare dungeons, you're comparing birdshit and dogshit. They both suck. Who cares. The point is that outside of the dungeons, Oblivion actually has something to offer, while Skyrim has basically nothing. Butter was the one saying Skyrim has the worst dungeon design on earth (and with how many stupid linear, easy, boring horseshoe ones there are, I tend to agree for the most part), I simply made fun of the mindless Skyrim ""puzzles""

On that note, "Environmental Storytelling" has been used as a crutch by Bethestards for years now, as a flimsy justification for why Bethesda games are actually really smart and deep, to the point where I no longer take it seriously as an argument. Fallout fans are the absolute worst for this. When Fallout 76 first came out, youtube videos were defending the absolutely soulless world by saying things like "look, there's some skeletons here, this hints to a bigger, more important story!" followed by 40 minutes of Oxhorn-tier fanfiction and wild speculation. People can do that if they want, but they're stupid if they then use that to justify why the games have good writing or worldbuilding. You can't judge the quality of a game based on headcanon. Morrowind was the last Bethesda game that actually bothered to flesh out it's world - and it did it using a lot of lore, writing, characterisation, factions, and basically making everything in the world fit into a coherent story. For example, everything from the enemy designs to the dialogue to the weather made the Ashlands feel dangerous, they didn't just plop down some skeletons and a book or two and call it a day. To Skyrim fans (and Oblivion and Fallout fans, for that matter) please, for the love of God, develop some standards and recognize lazy work when you see it.

 

[markec]

This is just a beginning of the game, and while there is a lot of boring dungeons in Skyrim there is a quite few interesting ones. Meanwhile as said, every dungeon in Oblivion looks and plays the same with zero creativity involved.

I hope you realize that you said this immediately after describing a dungeon in Oblivion that had a non-linear path, environmental storytelling, and feels "lived in" by the way they set up dummies to trick travellers.

But if you want to compare dungeons, you're comparing birdshit and dogshit. They both suck. Who cares. The point is that outside of the dungeons, Oblivion actually has something to offer, while Skyrim has basically nothing. Butter was the one saying Skyrim has the worst dungeon design on earth (and with how many stupid linear, easy, boring horseshoe ones there are, I tend to agree for the most part), I simply made fun of the mindless Skyrim ""puzzles""

As said 90% of gameplay is exploration of world and dungeons, so dungeon and world design do actually matter in a game where you will spend a lot of time actually exploring dungeons and world. Oblivion is horrible in that department and offers far less then Skyrim, so only thing you are left is with few decent quests and more complex RPG system which I guess lets people larp more efficiently. Beside that it does nothing better then Skyrim, maybe also the music is better.

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

Is 90% of the game actually exploring world and dungeons?

My own experience (and that of a lot of Lets plays, from what I can see) tells me that the majority of the time in the game is spent doing sidequests. Granted, often those sidequests will involve going into dungeons and "engaging" with the game's combat system, but it's hardly 90% of the gameplay.

If anything, I would say 90% of the typical gameplay experience of both Skyrim and Oblivion (and Morrowind as well) is spent in some kind of settlement/town doing quest-related things.

I know plenty of people who literally play these games to do the guild quests, then the miscellaneous town sidequests, the main quest (maybe), and then stop. Some dungeoneering will be required as part of that, but more often than not they are doing some dumb shenanigans around town.

I think for the most part we agree on things. Plenty of the dungeons across both games absolutely suck complete ass, and for every mindless Skyrim horseshoe I throw at you, you can probably throw back a generic Oblivion ruin with 4 big empty rooms. What really matters is taking each game as a whole.

 

[markec]

Is 90% of the game actually exploring world and dungeons?

My own experience (and that of a lot of Lets plays, from what I can see) tells me that the majority of the time in the game is spent doing sidequests. Granted, often those sidequests will involve going into dungeons and "engaging" with the game's combat system, but it's hardly 90% of the gameplay.

If anything, I would say 90% of the typical gameplay experience of both Skyrim and Oblivion (and Morrowind as well) is spent in some kind of settlement/town doing quest-related things.

I know plenty of people who literally play these games to do the guild quests, then the miscellaneous town sidequests, the main quest (maybe), and then stop. Some dungeoneering will be required as part of that, but more often than not they are doing some dumb shenanigans around town.

Im talking about first time players who dont know anything about the game. Time in cities is usually concentrated, when you arrive there you spend a lot of time exploring and doing quests in town, when you finish with them you leave and go exploring. But usually many quests will force you leave to explore the world and dungeons.

The thing with Oblivion is that when you play it for the first time you realize that there in nothing of value to find in world and dungeons that are not related by quests. So there is zero incentive to go and explore the world or dungeons. Thats why people when replay Oblivion just do quests and quests related dungeons.

Skyrim doesnt have many interesting side quests so you are forced to go and explore the world like it or not.

Morrowind world on the other hand is the jewel of the game, its fun to explore and most quests just take you outside the cities like it or not.

 

[Yosharian]

Spell crafting is fun and all but let's be honest it's pretty broken. I miss the mechanic but not Bethesda's fucking incompetent balancing

 

[Losus4]

I gu

Um. No. Oblivion's combat is much, much worse.

Oblivion doesn't have forced animated kill cams, that by definition not only makes combat better, but the game itself.

Killcams have been my chief complaint since the game released. Having to sit through canned animations every few enemies is one of the dumbest design decisions Bethesda made.

Firstly, they happen way too often, and only serve to take control away from the player.

Second, animations by their nature quickly grow stale, whearas the ragdoll physics of non-killcam deaths never grow old.

Thirdly, the fact that they very often glitch, such as archery cams making your arrow miss. It's like, if you just let me take the shot I would've hit.

Fourth and worst of all, the animations occur on the player, forcing them into a death animation, that they could've easily avoided if the game hadn't got in the way.

Also, they tend to happen on the last enemy in a pack... which informs the player combat has ended, which is just one of those little hand-holdy niggles that plague the game. The uncertainty of not knowing if there's another enemy nearby is a good thing and makes for more engaging combat.
For something this intrusive, an option to disable them really should've been in the game without having to use mods.