Incline Battle Brothers + Beasts & Exploration, Warriors of the North and Blazing Deserts DLC Thread

[Jimmious]

Thx for the long reply. I don't disagree with everything but:

Apart from the white/blue/purple item progression, you also have enchantments, and there's a fuckton of them. You also have a lot bigger variety within weapon types. In BB, many of them follow a linear progression that is not unlike the white/blue/purple one, with small damage/normal damage/big damage - bows, crossbows (sans spiked impaler) and all 1h weapons that I can think of are guilty of it, p sure the only ones that offer variety are the 2h weapons (axes, polearms, swords). Now compare to Mordheim ranged options for humans for instance - hunting rifle, blunderbuss, crossbow, bow, handgun, pistols. And then enchantments on top.

You might have more options for ranged weapons (for example) but their practical use is not really different. Crossbows and bows and thrown weapons are vastly different in usage and tactics in BB. Same applies for melee weapons, every category has special abilities that make it differ and even more when talking about 2H, you got proper game changers as you said. Add to that the whole fatigue/armor balancing of armors etc and you get my point.

I've often found myself thinking very hard in BB which perk to take, and not because all of them looked like must-have very important and useful picks, but because I had to decide which one looked the least useless.

Man that is exactly what was happening to me in Mordheim.

I completely agree with the level design and variety that's for sure. The worst part is that you made me want to play Mordheim again, god damn

 

[Whisper]

For starters, many of the perks in BB are very obvious trap options.

Can you list trap options?

 

[Darth Roxor]

The worst part is that you made me want to play Mordheim again, god damn

Good. Now you will keep asking yourself "why am I playing this instead of mordheim/xenonauts/ja2/x-com mods", just like I am all the time.

Your conversion to the cult of Roxor is at hand

 

[Serus]

I'll just leave it here to annoy Darth Roxor:

BB > Mordheim.

 

[agris]

Xenonauts is v. good

 

[Skittles]

For starters, many of the perks in BB are very obvious trap options.

Can you list trap options?

My List of Perks in Battle Bros

My list of traps differs a bit from general consensus, so I'll divide it into obvious traps and what I feel are traps or have very limited usefulness. I'm also mostly approaching this from the perspective of how good they are when they unlock--I'll make a note of perks that become nicer high level options and why.

Tier One Obvious:

• Fast Adaption: Tiny bonus and the perk gets more useless the better your bro is.
• Bags and Belts: Base bros have enough slots for almost every useful build, especially if you're smart enough to change equipment out before battle. Besides, things in your pockets count vs. max. fatigue and should be as limited as possible.

Tier One Controversial/Marginal

• Colossus: The lower your bro's health, the less this will benefit him. Some people like slapping it on tanks/sacrificial bros or to reduce chances of taking injuries, but you can manage injuries on the strategic layer and IMO health past a very achievable 70 offers quickly diminishing returns.
• Nine Lives: Some people will slap this on sacrificial bros to keep them around as long as possible, but on ordinary bros, you've fucked up if it's popped and you're going to lose that bro anyway 80% of the time.
• Adrenaline: It's not awful, but it's expensive and cases where it offers any substantial advantage are very few.
• Recover: The lower your bro's fatigue, the less useful this will be. That said, as a late game perk during an undead crisis, I'd consider it an option.

Tier Two Obvious:

• Hold Out: Morale should be managed by a morale bot. You might not have a good one when this perk becomes available, but once you do, half of the perk's use will vanish. The other half isn't useless, but this is just a weak, weak perk compared with other options at this level.
• Steel Brow: The better your armour, defence, and health, the worse this is. It gets worse the better your bro is.

Tier Two Controversial/Marginal

• Executioner: When this unlocks, it's not useful. You're probably still relying on swarming enemies and delivering low damage attacks, so smaller benefit and injured enemies are 9/10 going to be dead in a round with or without this perk. Later, 20% becomes respectable for 2H guys and there's nice synergy with Berserk and with a load of good archers using Crippling Strikes.
• Fortified Mind: Take it on your morale bot(s). For anyone else, it has the Colossus problem.

At Tier Three and beyond, I think there are fewer obvious traps when compared with the first two. I'll highlight a couple that I think are weak and point out where a new player might go wrong:

• Shield Expert: Just don't automatically slap this on every bro. You'll be using 2H weapons or duelist builds to dish out damage at higher levels, so you need to know who's going to switch and who's going to stay S&B. This is important because there are actually decent options to contend with at Tier Three.
• Taunt: Some people use it. The only real advantage seems to be convincing certain shield or sword using enemies from shieldwalling and/or riposting every turn. Riposters are easily dealt with using polearms and ranged attacks. Dangerous shieldwallers are usually helping you by choosing to spend AP and fatigue on shieldwall instead of attacking. Besides, decent axemen will take care of most every shield short of the metal orc shields in a round or two and flailbros can just laugh at them.
• [Weapon] Mastery: All of these are pretty solid options, just choose wisely. More than two on a single bro is usually a waste. Vary selection a bit so that you can make the most of different weapons.
• Lone Wolf: Although I like this on paper, I find that my tactical preferences means it rarely procs. It's debatable whether the bonuses outweigh the benefits of having multiple bros acting in concert who can win you the AP advantage and offer weapon synergies.

 

[Dr Skeleton]

Adrenaline is great on dedicated pikemen because you have fatigue to spend(and nothing else at t1 is that important for them), also works well on 2h frontliners with reach advantage and enough fatigue. I like picking colossus on beefy shieldwall frontliners (like farmhands with high hp and fatigue but low melee skill) but it's never great because increasing hp is not great in general, yeah.

I'd add Head Hunter (especially at tier 6 now, wut). If you want to hit the head use flails, random bonuses can actually work against you when you destroy the body armor with regular attacks THEN get the crit hit from the perk and it gets absorbed by the helmet.

 

[Skittles]

Adrenaline is great on dedicated pikemen because you have fatigue to spend(and nothing else at t1 is that important for them), also works well on 2h frontliners with reach advantage and enough fatigue. I like picking colossus on beefy shieldwall frontliners (like farmhands with high hp and fatigue but low melee skill) but it's never great because increasing hp is not great in general, yeah.

I'd add Head Hunter (especially at tier 6 now, wut). If you want to hit the head use flails, random bonuses can actually work against you when you destroy the body armor with regular attacks THEN get the crit hit from the perk and it gets absorbed by the helmet.

I think Pathfinder and Student are solid T1 abilities that edge out Adrenaline. Student's importance is more a strategic concern--it lets you keep a deeper reserve of leveled guys so injury management and bro replacement is less of a pain.

I'm on the fence about Head Hunter, too, yeah. I tend to slap it on archers/crossbowmen to increase their damage output. A good archer will be able to use it to nudge the odds of proccing Berserk during the opening round or two of combat with it. It's always seemed kind of a waste on melee guys, though.

 

[Darth Roxor]

NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE

YUP YUP YUP

well, that's gonna leave a mark

31 terrorists, 34 bodybags, mission accomplished

(although permanent broken elbow joint on excidium the third is basically a death sentence too, lucked out a lot on brain damage on max lvl archer tho)

and now all i get for this magnificent victory is a setback that will cost me 10k dollars on cloning vat bills to get new idiots, while the archer replacement I get obviously has 0 stars in ranged combat (ALL THE ONES ON THE ENTIRE MAP HAD THAT)

 

[Dr Skeleton]

I think Pathfinder and Student are solid T1 abilities that edge out Adrenaline. Student's importance is more a strategic concern--it lets you keep a deeper reserve of leveled guys so injury management and bro replacement is less of a pain.

I'm on the fence about Head Hunter, too, yeah. I tend to slap it on archers/crossbowmen to increase their damage output. A good archer will be able to use it to nudge the odds of proccing Berserk during the opening round or two of combat with it. It's always seemed kind of a waste on melee guys, though.

Pathfinder is my default choice for most bros, just good all around AP and fatigue saving and can be a life saver in a swamp. I only take student on late game replacement recruits that need to catch up with the veterans. Head hunter I guess could work for archers but you still need to hit normally for a better chance at a crit and at level 7+ you have so many perks to choose from that I don't think I could ever find room for it.

 

[Tigranes]

I've struggled to find good perks - and my working assumption is that most perks are not particularly powerful, and so things like Hold Out and Nine Lives can be situationally worth taking.

Honestly, I have to resist just giving Quick Hands and Student to nearly everybody. But I feel like because the battle system is so tight in the first place, plus very limited map/encounter variety, the ways in which your Bros differ is basically things like "dude has 3 stars on ranged attack, put on bow".

I do accept that I may not have seen the light yet with regards to the system, though.

 

[golgo21]

Name one of your replacements golgo plox Mr roxor!

 

[Darth Roxor]

Name one of your replacements golgo plox Mr roxor!

nope

you are not part of the seckrit elite club

 

[golgo21]

Your altfag circle jerk you mean.

 

[Skittles]

I've struggled to find good perks - and my working assumption is that most perks are not particularly powerful, and so things like Hold Out and Nine Lives can be situationally worth taking.

Honestly, I have to resist just giving Quick Hands and Student to nearly everybody. But I feel like because the battle system is so tight in the first place, plus very limited map/encounter variety, the ways in which your Bros differ is basically things like "dude has 3 stars on ranged attack, put on bow".

I do accept that I may not have seen the light yet with regards to the system, though.

I assume you mean at early levels.
Pathfinder is strong, especially on guys destined to be 2H troopers or duelists.
Crippling Strikes is a nice archer perk, although taking it can be delayed.
Gifted was nerfed, but it's still a nice power boost to round out weaknesses and toughen replacements up.
Backstabber is okay--it's best on archers who'll switch to polearms, since it relieves some pressure to buff their melee skill and you can count on a surround bonus in most cases.
Brawny is great for any build that's not using Dodge.

But Student is an almost insta-buy for me, too. Strategic value is too strong. All the people asking in this thread how to replace high level bros aren't taking Student enough and training replacements as they go along, I'd wager.

 

[Tigranes]

Yes, my first band of bros to get some sustainability are now only approaching levels 5-6. Those are good tips to think about.

 

[Jimmious]

Skittles it's actually impressive - I've never gotten Bags and Belts - ever. I rarely swap stuff out during combat, apart from the back-liners. You gave me food for thought.
Also about Backstabber : The skill mentions that it works in "melee". Are we sure it includes 2-ranged weapons? I always assumed so but I'm constantly doubting myself about this..

 

[Kayerts]

In my game it just doesn't work. In three turns they start mass breaking,and since there are 30 of them it is just not enough time. Although I dont have a 2nd sergeant,which seems like a mistake when I think about it.
Undead are too strong in this game. Never mind the necrosavants and necromancers who make a zombie attack 3 times with some crazy bonus.

You might have the wrong build. Geists are problems unless you have ~45 resolve on all bros, ideally 50, with a sergeant+standard bearer with 100+. (It's a major skill tax.) If you don't have that, these battles are unlikely to be worth it.

You can do that on the caravan contracts (where you ride in the caravan)?

I just tested, you can

You can retreat, but the caravan dies. Might be worth it; the zero hazard pay you get probably isn't worth losing bros.

Other stuff:

There isn't really a best weapon.
On high-level bros, axes are indeed pretty good at everything, though not exceptional at anything. Their two-handed options only situationally good.
Two-handed swords are also good in part because they're flexible weapons, though there their flexibility means you have reliable multitarget damage and an answer to polearm formations. They'd be my pick for best weapon, but the requirements to use them (bros with good melee and fatigue skills, heavy armor) are tough.

 

[Kayerts]

My List of Perks in Battle Bros

Mostly agree; disagreements listed below.

• Fast Adaption: Tiny bonus and the perk gets more useless the better your bro is.

It's useful on bros with return attacks, i.e. spearmasters and riposte specialists. Otherwise, yeah, the math does not support this.

• Colossus: The lower your bro's health, the less this will benefit him. Some people like slapping it on tanks/sacrificial bros or to reduce chances of taking injuries, but you can manage injuries on the strategic layer and IMO health past a very achievable 70 offers quickly diminishing returns.
• Adrenaline: It's not awful, but it's expensive and cases where it offers any substantial advantage are very few.
• Recover: The lower your bro's fatigue, the less useful this will be. That said, as a late game perk during an undead crisis, I'd consider it an option.

Colossus: If you're targeting 70 HP, this is worth 14 stat points (56 + perk = 70), which is on the high side of average for a perk.
Adrenaline's got a lot of corner case uses, enough so that I'm convinced it has some general case utility. I think there are better uses of points, but that guy on the Steam forums with 700+ hours seems to like this one.
Recover: It's good not just against undead but in every late game fight, because they tend to be long slugfests. Agree that it sucks early, but not having it on expert really hurts late.

Tier Two Controversial/Marginal

• Fortified Mind: Take it on your morale bot(s). For anyone else, it has the Colossus problem.

I guess it depends what resolve you're targeting. If you're aiming for 50ish, the perk is worth 10 stat points. (40 + perk = 50.) This is a pretty average value.

 

[Skittles]

Skittles it's actually impressive - I've never gotten Bags and Belts - ever. I rarely swap stuff out during combat, apart from the back-liners. You gave me food for thought.
Also about Backstabber : The skill mentions that it works in "melee". Are we sure it includes 2-ranged weapons? I always assumed so but I'm constantly doubting myself about this..

Unless one of the updates since last week changed it, I see an improvement from Backstabber with polearms.

I think we also got our wires crossed about Bags and Belts. I think it's a trap, even with a Quick-Hands build. I'll usually use load-outs like this:
Archer/xbox: Bow, quiver, spare quiver, polearm
2H: 2H weapon axe/hammer/sword, backup 1H weapon like a mace or flail, and only rarely a spare shield
S&B: flail/spear, shield, damaging 1H weapon, and maybe javelins (I don't find them all that effective unless you dip for Throwing Weapon Mastery, but others have reported success opening combat with a javelin volley from all frontliners)

Bags and Belts was interesting in beta builds where the contents didn't give a fatigue penalty, so you could always have the ideal weapon for the job. Now, the weight is rarely worth it just to have an Inspector Gadget bro. The exception would be for players who like to use fodder to spam nets in combat. But it's not a mainstay perk and I think you'll regret having it on a level 6+ specialized bro.

 

[Jimmious]

I like your builds but consider also this: I equip an extra net on my backliners/archers instead of a second quiver because it gives them an extra option if someone manages to engage them in melee (or tries to).
And actually in most battles the 10 arrows are enough until it becomes a hand-to-hand matter where the polearms/longaxes(which I find also awesome for backliners, an extra shield break from the backline is always nice) become essential.

You don't use swords or cleavers at all? Cleavers especially can be crazily brutal in unarmored opponents!

 

[Skittles]

Colossus: If you're targeting 70 HP, this is worth 14 stat points (56 + perk = 70), which is on the high side of average for a perk.
Adrenaline's got a lot of corner case uses, enough so that I'm convinced it has some general case utility. I think there are better uses of points, but that guy on the Steam forums with 700+ hours seems to like this one.
Recover: It's good not just against undead but in every late game fight, because they tend to be long slugfests. Agree that it sucks early, but not having it on expert really hurts late.
[...]

I guess it depends what resolve you're targeting. If you're aiming for 50ish, the perk is worth 10 stat points. (40 + perk = 50.) This is a pretty average value.

Part of my disdain for Colossus and Fortified Mind come from how I level guys, I think. I only shoot for 60 HP and 40 Resolve around level five, but will drop the odd levelup in them if they're high rolls and the core stats are low. Using those perks to reach my goals mean that more than ~two boosts in the stat puts you in diminishing returns values (>70 or >50 respectively). You start to "waste" level boosts if you level as I do and use these perks.

Recover... I hear you. I'm enough of a fatigue fanatic that usually anything but the undead is hurting for fatigue more than my bros over the course of a long fight (or dead).

I'm interested to hear more about how you use/would use Adrenaline. I never found myself using it more than once in five fights or less when experimenting with it.

I like your builds but consider also this: I equip an extra net on my backliners/archers instead of a second quiver because it gives them an extra option if someone manages to engage them in melee (or tries to).
And actually in most battles the 10 arrows are enough until it becomes a hand-to-hand matter where the polearms/longaxes(which I find also awesome for backliners, an extra shield break from the backline is always nice) become essential.

You don't use swords or cleavers at all? Cleavers especially can be crazily brutal in unarmored opponents!

I do start to run out of ammo after I have Berserk up and running, especially since the skill gap between melee and ranged grows to make it reasonable to continue firing even at enemies you could engage with polearms. Nets aren't a bad idea--I'm just leery of it since swapping to and throwing a net will mean forgoing an attack. I usually just try to make it so my archers can take a few blows, which is a good policy anyway for the you-know-whats.

I don't completely avoid them.

Cleavers are nice as step two of the good old shuck n' fuck manoeuvre but I don't tend to favour them unless I'm sure I'm facing unarmoured or low armour enemies to begin with. The top tier human cleaver only has a slight damage bonus on the fighting axe, which is mitigated by their worse penetration and armour damage. Besides that, cleavers don't have a great special attack and bleed's hard to rely on--nicest when it's least likely to proc. They're not shit by any means, though, just suboptimal in my book.

1H swords are a little underwhelming to me. Riposte is really nice for its potential attack/point of fatigue efficiency, but I move away from defensive builds towards offense that flails and the debuffs that maces, axes, and hammers can provide on my 1H weapon users as my guys level and the difficulty increases.

 

[Zetor]

Speaking of specialties -- what's the general consensus on 2h weapons when you toss specializations into the mix?

I ended up going axe specialization on 3 of my dudes simply because it gives the most versatility even if the bonus (shield splitting) isn't that useful: -fatigue on longaxes giving 2-tile reach + good damage + shieldbreak ability when a tight frontline is needed, greataxes when it's time to murder heavily-armored shit and/or a bunch of shieldless mooks, and 1h axe+shield is really good in turtle vs turtle setups. Sword specialization isn't that good for 1h (I got a named noble sword that was decent), but 2h swords are good, esp against squishier enemy melee (pikes). I never had a hammer specialist, but 2h / 1h hammer both seem pretty legit if your goal is to fuck enemy armor (orcs). Polearms... maybe, I never had good enough initiative to build for overwhelm and similar abilities that'd make the stagger effect useful.

 

[Jimmious]

I'm interested to hear more about how you use/would use Adrenaline. I never found myself using it more than once in five fights or less when experimenting with it.

Adrenaline is highly situational of course but it works wonders in a two hander bro, for me at least. Assuming that they are usually built to land hits and deal a lot of damage, to be able to hit again before the engaged enemies can do anything can make a great difference. Especially since 2h bros can't defend well -> a good attack is the best defense etc
A couple of dead enemies more and potentially quite some morale destroyed on the ones around is a good deal for me

 

[golgo21]

Berserk is golden for pure archers,you will be able to fire 3 times on a kill per turn and if you combine it with fearsome you will route alive mobs before they reach your line.
Nimble is also good for your archers,generally they will get the lightest armor possible so everything that will avert one shots from enemy archers is good.