Baldur's Gate 1/2 gameplay is total shit.

[DraQ]

By the way, why everyone hates on Firewine so much? It's really a small dungeon that can be explored without reloads in like ten minutes. Well, pathfinding works like shit, but it doesn't break the entire game experience, does it?
I can understand people being disillusioned with it after so much build-up the first time they play BG - after all it's getting constantly hyped in the in-game lore as some type of infinite super-spooky uber-dungeon. It's just not interesting enough.
But declaring it a gameplay nightmare? Wtf?

1. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It's just a random jumble of corridors and needlessly twisted dead ends, lacking any sense of place or purpose. This place tells no story.

2. It's nondescript, banal and boring. There is no detail of any kind, no diversity, just a maze of same'y rectangular corridors. I find it hard to believe it was designed by a human being, as even machine generated dungeons of Daggerfall had far more personality and sense (in addition to being huge, actually allowing player to get lost and providing meaningful obstacles).

3. It's the kind of place that is easy to plot on graph paper and would probably be fairly conductive to blob FPP combat. Unfortunately it happens to be the exact same kind of place that fails horribly, in the worst way imaginable when it comes to cooperating with IE - standard width corridors make navigation PHYSICAL PAIN, with party members treating each other as obstructions, wandering off in odd directions and walking into traps or kobold filled rooms, or simply clinching each other - the horror! the horror!
In addition, this kind of narrow corridors displays badly in 2d iso, with walls obscuring most of the play area, while the layout, that might have facilitated some dastardly, but legitimate meta purpose, like helping people get lost and commit mapping errors, becomes pointless, when you see the entire area from above.

4. It's filled with respawning kobolds and kobolds with a bunch of kobolds thrown in for variety. This means you have to micromanage your entire way through the dungeon, baby step after baby step, battling hordes of nuisance enemies you would defeat with little need for manual guidance, was it not for the retarded party members running away in random directions all the time.

tl;dr version:
It's boring, makes no sense and seems designed with sole purpose of making IE hate you in mind.

All in all I'm starting to see BG1 as 1998's Oblivion - banal, shallow, with little regard to making sense (someone explain to me why there are traps in Ulcaster?), a lot of failed humour and trying to accommodate fashionable ideas from that time (omg RT).

Also, since I somehow skimmed over Serus' post, I shall rectify this:

Forgetten Realms make as little sense as Wizardry series* in terms of consistency and logic (= doesnt make any at all). Perhaps even less.
The main difference is that banal quasi-medieval fantasy with elves and dwarves was made and remade in CRPGs litterally hundreds of times. In much more interesting ways than Baldur games (and Forgotten Realms in general) too.
Cheesy fantasy/science-fiction mix setting is obviously not unique to Wizardry but is less overused. What is more important Wizardry (7 and 8) has at least some original thought put by authors in it. I cant say the same thing about BG games.

Also, Wizardry, at least Wizardry 8, seems to have this self-conscious, tongue-in-cheek vibe BG lacks. It's zany nerd stuff recognizing and embracing that it's zany nerd stuff, with ninja robots (ok, monk androids), swords, blasters and dragons flying spaceships.

It would be pretty retarded to treat settings of games that don't take themselves seriously - like Wizardry, MDK, Anachronox, or Divinity 2 just as rigorously as the settings of those that do.

Apart from that, I mostly agree.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Also, word "GURPS" appears only in 34 of my posts, which is far from 90%.

From some time, you post the same thing in almost every Fallout 1 related topic.

What's so weird about it? From what I've seen, people tend to repeatedly post the same things about other games here. Somehow, almost every thread about Arcanum/PST has mentions of bad combat, almost every thread about FINO3/Oblivion will mention that these games are shit, every thread about ME2/AP has criticism of popamole, etc.

Anyway, my point was that Fallout had a few cool gimmicks in combat that made gameplay more interesting (despite annoying the hell out of me) which gave me some false hope for the future.

All in all I'm starting to see BG1 as 1998's Oblivion - banal, shallow, with little regard to making sense (someone explain to me why there are traps in Ulcaster?), a lot of failed humour and trying to accommodate fashionable ideas from that time (omg RT).

That's exactly what it was. I really hated BG1 when I was in high school.

 

[Turjan]

All in all I'm starting to see BG1 as 1998's Oblivion - banal, shallow, with little regard to making sense (someone explain to me why there are traps in Ulcaster?), a lot of failed humour and trying to accommodate fashionable ideas from that time (omg RT).

Oh, come on. Even if the story wasn't exactly exciting, it at least made halfway sense, unlike in Oblivion. Yes, the game had several dungeons that were somewhat nerve-wrecking. All enemies with magic arrows were overpowered (well, archery was overpowered), and that's why the upper parts of the Nashkell mines, the Firewine dungeon, or also those two maps full of bandits with ice arrows were such a pain in the ass. At least for the latter two examples, I can see the only reason for their existence in the need to supply the player with these arrows. That's not a good reason for their existence, but fortunately, they are only a small part of the game.

I also hated the Firewine dungeon every time I went there. It's a short detour, and there are enough good encounters in the game to make up for it.

 

[Xor]

BG1 also has enough dungeons that you can only do 2 or 3 and still hit the level cap.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Oh, come on. Even if the story wasn't exactly exciting, it at least made halfway sense, unlike in Oblivion.

So, Oblivion is even worse than BG1?

 

[PorkaMorka]

I don't really know much about the setting. I think the last time I really took any notice of it was in the early 90's or so. However, if it wasn't better than many 'home brew' settings, after all the people that have worked on it, not to mention it being a commercial enterprise, it would be pretty bloody surprising wouldn't it?

You could even say it would be a complete flop otherwise, couldn't you?
[

By home brew I mean settings designed by video game developers strictly for video games.

They are almost invariably incredibly bad, and they make FR look good, despite the fact that FR is highly generic, cliched and uninspired.

So despite FR being a pretty bad setting, it's still often a positive for a game to be set in FR, rather than the developer's made up world with characters that look like this:

And things just get worse the farther away from the generic they try to get. Video game developers are just not very good at writing, in general, if you hadn't noticed.

EDIT: btw all comments are pre 4th edition, I dont follow that shit.

 

[cutterjohn]

I'll stop playing BG 1/2 if you can find me something better.

And don't say Arcanum.

Wizardry 8

 

[mister_matt]

I'll stop playing BG 1/2 if you can find me something better.

And don't say Arcanum.

Wizardry 8

I've seen a lot of people harp about that game on these forums. I'll have to give it a spot on my to do list.

 

[sportforredneck]

rather than the developer's made up world with characters that look like this:

Fuck you. Wizardry rules, assclown.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

I don't really know much about the setting. I think the last time I really took any notice of it was in the early 90's or so. However, if it wasn't better than many 'home brew' settings, after all the people that have worked on it, not to mention it being a commercial enterprise, it would be pretty bloody surprising wouldn't it?

You could even say it would be a complete flop otherwise, couldn't you?
[

By home brew I mean settings designed by video game developers strictly for video games.

They are almost invariably incredibly bad, and they make FR look good, despite the fact that FR is highly generic, cliched and uninspired.

So despite FR being a pretty bad setting, it's still often a positive for a game to be set in FR, rather than the developer's made up world with characters that look like this:

And things just get worse the farther away from the generic they try to get. Video game developers are just not very good at writing, in general, if you hadn't noticed.

EDIT: btw all comments are pre 4th edition, I dont follow that shit.

Do you have any other examples of good and bad? You tended to pick two very shabby settings as your examples. Wizardry setting is merely a slight motivator, and not meant to give a giant tour de force backstory.

Wizardry (so long as you like the gameplay type) = all about the game.

Torment (so long as you actually like the story) = all about the story.

If you go into either of these games without enjoying the element, or catch, of each game, you might as well not bother. ie: Don't play Wizardry for the story/setting. Don't play Torment for the gameplay.

Hang on, FR has Kobolds, Gnolls, Werewolves, etc. Were you having a go at Dog People a moment ago?....why yes, you were! Care to elaborate?

 

[mister_matt]

I never got very annoyed playing BG2, a little bit with BG1 at times, but never really with 2. I think what I enjoyed about the Baldur's Games was that they did a fairly decent job of telling a story, while giving you a little bit of freedom to explore the Forgotten Realms through side quests. There was a lot of micromanaging to take care of during battles, but I found that to be not much of an issue, personally, on my playthroughs. That might be the nostalgia goggles talking though, as I do remember a few instances where combat/development really annoyed me while I'm writing this post,but I would probably chalk most of my frustration with BG2 to the rule set, and my frustrations with BG1 to being a teenager with a short attention span.

I can overlook almost anything for great storytelling though; I found the Forgotten Realms pretty easy to get into. I think seeing your party become a bunch of bad mother fuckers through the progression of events was pretty cool; I think someone mentioned that earlier in the thread. I know that I exported and imported quite a few times.

I owe them both another playthrough, that's for sure.

 

[DraQ]

Wizardry (so long as you like the gameplay type) = all about the game.

Torment (so long as you actually like the story) = all about the story.

Morrowind = all about the setting.

Couldn't resist.

Hang on, FR has Kobolds, Gnolls, Werewolves, etc. Were you having a go at Dog People a moment ago?....why yes, you were! Care to elaborate?

In FR they are pretty much always chaotic evil (TM) so he can go fap while he kills himself some furry.

 

[Darth Roxor]

In FR they are pretty much always chaotic evil (TM) so he can go fap while he kills himself some furry.

This is the key to understanding DraQ's hatred of FR.

 

[DraQ]

In FR they are pretty much always chaotic evil (TM) so he can go fap while he kills himself some furry.

This is the key to understanding DraQ's hatred of FR.

Nah, it's just shit, but I do hate D&D moronic alignment system and the concept of 'HURF DURF HAOTIC EBIL!!1' races. The latter is very uncodexian about me, I know.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Why... WHY can't I engage in Kobold diplomacy, and then, possibly develope romances and push them all up their, sweet, sweet furry poopers

 

[DraQ]

Why... WHY can't I engage in Kobold diplomacy, and then, possibly develope romances and push them all up their, sweet, sweet furry poopers

No homo, man, no homo!

 

[Serious_Business]

People ASKING on Codex what is wrong with Forgotten Realms setting are just.... i dont know... sorry i have to say it - "decline" ?

Could you please not say Forgotten Realms when it is apparent you are speaking only about the Sword Coast and its surroundings.

(Places like Chult, the great Glacier or Rashemen are far less gneric fantasy then the Sword Coast)

This is just like that time Volo said darkspawn weren't orcs

Care to backup your well thought out post with some arguments?

Fuck no, this is the Codex, fuck your well thought out shit. I just wanted to offend you because I think the FR is shit, and it worked. Unfortunately I don't need arguments to think that the FR is shit, so your query is impertinent. Also I don't argue about fantasy worlds, because I am too elite, and this is too pedestrian, and I feel every of my typed word is probably making you rage right now, which is swell, but really son this is like therapy for you, you need to take your distances

 

[Sceptic]

It would be pretty retarded to treat settings of games that don't take themselves seriously - like Wizardry, MDK, Anachronox

Hey, Anachronox setting is AWESOME even if you do take it seriously. The slums atmosphere of Anachronox itself is awesome.

 

[Satori (original)]

Personally I was reallty disappointed with Anachronox in that it didn't carry the cyberpunk theme all the way through the game since it handled it so well, in fact the best since the Blade Runner game.

 

[DraQ]

It would be pretty retarded to treat settings of games that don't take themselves seriously - like Wizardry, MDK, Anachronox

Hey, Anachronox setting is AWESOME even if you do take it seriously.

I never tried, TBH.

I think it would be insulting towards the game - like taking The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy dead seriously.

Of course, it didn't overflow with forced lulz, like lesser interactive comedy wannabes often do (see MDK2), but allowed the humour to keep trickling slowly, deliberately in small, but accumulating quantities, making me all .

 

[Sceptic]

I think it would be insulting towards the game - like taking The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy dead seriously.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Adams is all about not being serious, and he does it better than most. His comedy is great comedy. Anachronox's comedy is on that level, and I don't know what better praise I can give it. But the game's not all about the comedy. Sure, even the main plot plays up the ridiculous as much as it can (and the party members take great joy in pointing out the silly in it) but there is nothing remotely approaching comedy in the whole ark with Detta and with the Boots/Fatima/Stiletto triangle. The whole thread is played straight, as serious as it can be, and it works.

 

[SuicideBunny]

the miniaturized planet party member is pretty retarded from a serious angle.

 

[DraQ]

I think it would be insulting towards the game - like taking The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy dead seriously.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Adams is all about not being serious, and he does it better than most. His comedy is great comedy. Anachronox's comedy is on that level, and I don't know what better praise I can give it. But the game's not all about the comedy. Sure, even the main plot plays up the ridiculous as much as it can (and the party members take great joy in pointing out the silly in it) but there is nothing remotely approaching comedy in the whole ark with Detta and with the Boots/Fatima/Stiletto triangle. The whole thread is played straight, as serious as it can be, and it works.

Yes. Because the game doesn't ram your face full of lulz, but lets the serious and humorous parts coexist peacefully and augment each other.

 

[oldrpgmaster]

BG2 have great graphics and interesting story line.

But...

Shit core rules.

Old AD&D rules pure shit:

Jahera - Attack Roll 2 + 0 : miss
Imoen - Attack Roll 12 + 0 : miss
Minsc - Attack Roll 8 + 0 : miss
Yoshimo - Attack Roll 15 + 0 : miss

I had more fun playing Final Fantasy 5, 6, 7 and 8. It was really difficult miss the attacks.

In the appropriate context, the best made RPG game for PC is Ultima 7.

Why?

Because after Ultima 7, no RPG game of dark age fantasy had:

- To collect the ingredients to cast spells, which made complete sense.

- Feed your character to keep then health. No food, no good in battle.

- Use of different items outside the traditional "only to comabt" items. A good example was make bread with the appropriate tools, either to feed the group or to sell for few coins.

- You just sleep in the wild if you have the bedroll and the weather is good.

- No light, no sight. Have a some source of light or you cannot see very well in dungeons.

- The NPC goes to sleep during the night and move to different locations during the day.

Still waiting a RPG game be like that. BG2 is far away to be a good game as was Ultima 7.

 

[racofer]

Sup Drog.