Archmage Rises - the play-how-you-want mage simulator - now available on Early Access

[LordYabo]

Time for some creative criticism savagery!
The climb,swim skill checks are too spammy, similar problem with barter. You should find ways to cut down on repetition and make it not braindead.
Does the trap investigation spell can change the area investigated with less stamina as it wasn't shown in the video? Also again its too repetitive and braindead.
You also need something to give tension and meaning to the dungeon. OSR Dungeon movement maybe has some ideas as its a similar concept focusing on loot.

Now for the conversation. Once you find all the traits your responses become automatic. Again braindead. Maybe if the traits had some other functions it could be interesting but then they are too easy to get and to easy to manipulate.
I think you are better of making traits be completely hidden and just affect behavior, maybe give some hints in conversations but don't make it a sure thing and have twists and red herrings as well as a bit of dynamism.

You are right!
This is the problem with a "tip of the iceberg" pre-alpha. Some of the systems just aren't fleshed out enough. We're working hard. The next major build will introduce a massive new feature: Stronghold/Tower building. It is much closer to the final version than many of our other systems.

 

[LordYabo]

Here's an exclusive peek at something we're working on this group may enjoy.


Feature will be optional, you can choose to play RNG or Physics based d20.

 

[Storyfag]

Quick one: is any form of necromancy in? Will I be able to become a liche?

 

[LordYabo]

Quick one: is any form of necromancy in? Will I be able to become a liche?

Sorry, no necromancy in the base game. It has come up enough that i'm considering it for DLC.
We've made an allotment where you can build your mage tower out of bone. Maybe bodies.

 

[adrix89]

Here's an exclusive peek at something we're working on this group may enjoy.


Feature will be optional, you can choose to play RNG or Physics based d20.

This reminds me of a good way to do skill checks. Instead of magic being an automatic win button make it magic cheat abilities that affect a puzzle game.
Littlewitch Romanesque had the perfect system for this (porn games ahoy!) as well as games like Haro and Way2.

Thea The Awakening also was great by making skills into cards in game. Spells can be used instead and behave differently for challenges.

Cheating in a d20 game should be some natural fun and a perfect fit for mages who are cheating bastards.

 

[Jack Dandy]

Here's an exclusive peek at something we're working on this group may enjoy.


Feature will be optional, you can choose to play RNG or Physics based d20.

Neato. Can you show more dungeon parts?

 

[V_K]

Here's an exclusive peek at something we're working on this group may enjoy.


Feature will be optional, you can choose to play RNG or Physics based d20.

Funny how youtube chose a screen with a math bug for thumbnail (7+12 = 19, not 18).
After watching the video, I think what happens is that skill increases after that roll, but the UI window shows the already increased value.

 

[mutonizer]

Initial pitch/concept was interesting but then I saw the early access demo and that's that...

How you can transform interestingly good ideas (NPC system, dialogs, focus on magic, etc) into nothing but retarded whack'a'mole minigames is amazing to me.

Our vision is to bring the essence of the pen & paper role playing experience to the modern computer role playing game[..] (from website)

And this is what you consider the "essence" or P&P Rpging? NPCs screaming their traits at you X times a week? Clicking on shaking boxes for 20 gold? Infinite retarded rinse & repeat skill checks for stupid tasks?


Ah well, it takes all kinds I guess. Best of luck anyway...

 

[anus_pounder]

Quick one: is any form of necromancy in? Will I be able to become a liche?

Sorry, no necromancy in the base game. It has come up enough that i'm considering it for DLC.
We've made an allotment where you can build your mage tower out of bone. Maybe bodies.

Necromancy DLC is an absolute must. And not in a 'token evil mage' type as well. I fail to see anything remotely evil about Necromancy in any fantasy universe ever made. It's just as valid as fireballs and ice spikes.

 

[vonAchdorf]

There's a new post on Steam regarding the economy:

Economy Design (For those who like Railroad Tycoon, Anno, TradeWars, The Guild 2, Caesar games)
Hello, I'm the lead designer on the game and I'm now focused on beefing up the economy and trading aspect of the game.

I need your help ensuring we make something everyone can enjoy.

Quick Intro
There are three pillars to the player's gain in power in Archmage Rises: Combat power, Economic power, and Political power. Right now I'm solely focusing on economic power. I want it to be strong enough that you can ignore the other aspects if you wish.

A lot of people have played Railroad Tycoon so i'll be using it as examples.

Ironically I already had the economy and trading working, it was one of the first features working in Unity, but it severely broke through rewrites and expansions in the spring so now i need to revisit it entirely.

We promised it for build 9 release but I don't think it will make it in in time and i don't want to hold up that build any longer. So it will be in build 10.

What I have So Far
This is the base of the economy, without getting into how magic impacts it.
The Basics

1. The player can buy or sell items/resources/goods at towns in the world.
2. The player can only move so much product, limited by the carts he/she own. There are a variety of cart upgrades possible. Let's face it, a cart drawn by Death Dogs is cooler than a Draft Horse, because it can improve defense if attacked by raiders.
3. Buildings are the fundamental building block of the economy. They represent an abstraction of the whole guild and interconnected system that supports that kind of building. So a "Blacksmith" isn't just a solitary blacksmith, it's a guild of them in a higher than average number of higher than usual quality, therefore their product would be valuable elsewhere.
4. Buildings either produce (a mine produces iron), consume (an inn consumes wine & beer), or consume & produce a resource (a tailor consumes cloth and produces clothing).
5. The number of buildings possible in a town is population based. I don't know what the number is, so let's just say it is one building per 1,000.
6. When a resource is produced and there is excess of it, it is cheap. Where a resource is required but not internally produced by the town, it is expensive.
7. Buildings which have supply of required resources and consumption of produced resources are profitable. If one of those two things aren't there, they lose.
8. Some buildings enhance other buildings. So if a town has an Outfitter that sells weapons, and there is a Mage Shop, some of the Outfitter's weapons will be enchanted.

What the Player Does

1. The player travels the world discovering which locations have low prices on resources and which have high
2. The player can build a building (significant investment), it now operates as normal and any profit/loss is on the player. (ability to partner with an existing business comes later, need more relationship code to be completed)
3. The player can create some goods through rooms in their mage tower. If the player has a potion workshop, they can make potions to sell.
4. The lands the player owns can have workers on them. So if a player has a mine on their personal property, and they have workers, they have ore to sell.
5. Every trade is remembered by the NPC and affects relationship.
6. The player, based on a Bartering skill, gets a certain number of negotiating rounds. If you suck a batering, you get 0. If you are ok, you get 1, etc. This allows you to improve the price but has a push-your-luck mechanism. The more you ask for each round the more likely you are to blow up the negotiation and not be able to do any deal. Relationship between you and the NPC mitigates this. This makes loyalty in trade important.

Other Notes
At first i expect finding trade routes and making deals will be fun. Over time it will become tedious. The player can automate the trading through the assignment of apprentices.

What do you like in Economic Play?
So what are cool/fun things you enjoy doing in economic sim games?
Do you have a story of a time when...?

I need your help ensuring there is something for everyone in this feature.

 

[LordYabo]

Initial pitch/concept was interesting but then I saw the early access demo and that's that...

How you can transform interestingly good ideas (NPC system, dialogs, focus on magic, etc) into nothing but retarded whack'a'mole minigames is amazing to me.

Our vision is to bring the essence of the pen & paper role playing experience to the modern computer role playing game[..] (from website)

And this is what you consider the "essence" or P&P Rpging? NPCs screaming their traits at you X times a week? Clicking on shaking boxes for 20 gold? Infinite retarded rinse & repeat skill checks for stupid tasks?

Ah well, it takes all kinds I guess. Best of luck anyway...

Thanks for the feedback. I actually agree with you, which maybe you didn't expect.

I've learned that game dev is about time. It's "how good can I make this in X time". When a AAA game ships and there are some wonky story parts, or the ending sucks, or some VO is terrible, it's not like they didn't know. It's because they ran out of time.
Sometimes time is limited by budget, sometimes time is limited just by the will to go on. A friend indie is releasing to Early Access because he's tired of working on the game. I and another friend tried to tell him his game isn't ready, but he's emotionally done.

In my case time was limited by GenCon. With so much to learn and build in the months leading up to it, I put in the skill checks in a rough form so people could get an idea of what was coming. Maybe that was a poor decision, but i cannot undo it now.
It is helpful to know that decision is turning away people who were interested and may now not be.

I would like to make the challenges of swimming or stuck doors interesting. How would you like it to be?

 

[Infinitron]

Your co-developer has already responded to similar accusations:

Time for some creative criticism savagery!
The climb,swim skill checks are too spammy, similar problem with barter. You should find ways to cut down on repetition and make it not braindead.
Does the trap investigation spell can change the area investigated with less stamina as it wasn't shown in the video? Also again its too repetitive and braindead.
You also need something to give tension and meaning to the dungeon. OSR Dungeon movement maybe has some ideas as its a similar concept focusing on loot.

Now for the conversation. Once you find all the traits your responses become automatic. Again braindead. Maybe if the traits had some other functions it could be interesting but then they are too easy to get and to easy to manipulate.
I think you are better of making traits be completely hidden and just affect behavior, maybe give some hints in conversations but don't make it a sure thing and have twists and red herrings as well as a bit of dynamism.

And yes! Some very good points. Playing through the demo myself, there's not a lot there to make me want to play through dungeons over and over- the systems are bare-bones and I completely agree that once you figure out the simple way they work, it's mindless. That's something that's currently being fleshed out. Creative ideas are always welcome and other game systems are a huge way of finding things that work.

Conversations are in the same boat, though more-so. Time is crucial to getting those to go from a single-time mini-game to get what you want to something you have to come back to and work a little at over the years. The demo doesn't really implement time yet as a true mechanic so the conversations can feel empty. This was our starting-point with relationships/conversations and we are addressing them after this next build.

 

[LordYabo]

Becoming a lich (or for that matter, a vampire) goes against your game principle of lifespan as the limiting factor though. It might be like Dwarf Fortress: the most powerful creatures in the game world will inevitably be vampires and necromancers and they will end up filling all the highest offices.

Yes, i have to limit lifespan somehow. Maybe you could theoretically live forever, but the resource (blood, whatever) is scarce. I don't know, that is why it is DLC. I have to think long and hard about how to do it. How to "break" the game to make that path viable and interesting choice. Maybe by the time I'm done the base game the answer will be clear.

 

[LordYabo]

Neato. Can you show more dungeon parts?

Not sure what you mean. The episode #1 above at the 10 min mark shows what we currently have for the dungeon. It's just a taste. Thursday of this week I had a design session with the artist and programmer to now take the system we roughed in and flesh it out. It needs to feel like a dungeon crawl, right now it doesn't yet. Rooms and items are too repeaty. Skill checks and searching are too mindless.

 

[LordYabo]

This reminds me of a good way to do skill checks. Instead of magic being an automatic win button make it magic cheat abilities that affect a puzzle game.
Littlewitch Romanesque had the perfect system for this (porn games ahoy!) as well as games like Haro and Way2.

Thea The Awakening also was great by making skills into cards in game. Spells can be used instead and behave differently for challenges.

Cheating in a d20 game should be some natural fun and a perfect fit for mages who are cheating bastards.

Thanks, i'll check those out.

 

[PirateScum]

Don't know if it has been mentioned before, but what's with the Skyrim font?

 

[Tao]

I'm looking forward to that vampirism expansion. You could set as a possible end game objetive to gain inmortality, being vampirism one of the solutions.

Anyways, great work man, i have the game listed to buy it the moment it get release.

 

[Noddy]

M8 i just want you to know i have the hardest hardon for this game.

If you fuck this up, i'm inserting into you.

 

[adrix89]

Combat power, Economic power, and Political power

It think it is wrong to think them as separate, especially with your event system you have an opportunity. You could intentionally leave the threats going to drive of the prices and sell snake oil as solution. Besides it really is about political power as a proper trade economy should have contracts with other towns that supply what they need. Manipulate the relationship between the actors that affect supply and demand and the player get in on the pie.The player should not be the only trader in the world. The player should be in competition with the AI, maybe even do some piracy. A mage should trade like a mage. Use all the cheats in the book. Including flying and teleport spells for trading items he can carry on his person instead of the cart. Also get a damn backpack, or a bag of storage +1, or a dimensional box. Also have more varied item weight and size. Don't just cripple non-caravan trading.

Buildings either produce (a mine produces iron), consume (an inn consumes wine & beer), or consume & produce a resource (a tailor consumes cloth and produces clothing).

One thing that gets wrong often in economy games is the improper simulation of consumers. Every town should have a population that consumes and have a happiness as more luxuries are available that increase the population growth and eventually the new level of the city, I think Annon does something like this? But I can't remember. On the other hand when things get tough and wealth gets taxed like through the threat events I talked above demand and growth plummets and everyone is unhappy and grumpy, and if they find out you are responsible hate your guts. This way you have a great counterbalance.

Buildings are the fundamental building block of the economy.

I think you should have multiple tier of buildings just like in The Guild 2 based on the city level. They would demand more varied resources but produce higher quality goods. In rough times they can just operate on a lower level.
Think in terms of a Capital City. A capital has everything in the world for a price. A capital has also great wealth and power. Its in the low level towns that have special resources used for luxury where the profits are made.

When a resource is produced and there is excess of it, it is cheap. Where a resource is required but not internally produced by the town, it is expensive.

This is wrong since it doesn't take into account trading. Especially you should have contracts with other cities to supply what they need. Contracted supplies should not be considered surplus. And events should not be overblown in its impact, they have caravan guards and patrols to keep things safe even without you.
What you should focus on is the resources themselves. Every region should have special resources that they van extract and when the road of a resource is far away to reach that is where the player makes his money.
It think the starting condition you set up is blinding your vision with how the system should work properly. If 100 gold isn't enough for the player to trade find other ways. Maybe initially the world is generate with a event threat that he can use to disrupt the market and profit or solve for some cash. After all if caravans hire more guards the prices go up so you have an opportunity to get in.

Some buildings enhance other buildings. So if a town has an Outfitter that sells weapons, and there is a Mage Shop, some of the Outfitter's weapons will be enchanted.

This is excellent and should be focused and expanded upon. More unique resources.

The player travels the world discovering which locations have low prices on resources and which have high.

This needs to happen based on a logic. And events should always change the situation somehow to give rise to opportunity. Information is at the heart of trade, Ancient Greece had spies everywhere around the world. Creating your own network of relationships is what it means to have influence, what it means to have political power.
A lot of trading games give you too much information so this is an opportunity for your game.

The player can create some goods through rooms in their mage tower. If the player has a potion workshop, they can make potions to sell.

I think the player should have jobs for some money and increase in skill. If your mage tower has parity with what the city can produce it could be interesting.

The player, based on a Bartering skill, gets a certain number of negotiating rounds. If you suck a batering, you get 0. If you are ok, you get 1, etc. This allows you to improve the price but has a push-your-luck mechanism. The more you ask for each round the more likely you are to blow up the negotiation and not be able to do any deal. Relationship between you and the NPC mitigates this. This makes loyalty in trade important.

Still boring. At least have something like Recettear where characters have a "right price" that gives a bonus in reputation. But I still don't like it.

Overall I think you need to think in terms of more resources. Have reagents and ingredients to drive the higher level industry as well as be used as a resource for your own spells in you dungeons and exploration campaigns. If stamina can be a resource so can be gold and reputation. Its all about opportunity and efficiency.

Also I think mages should have an opportunity to get filthy rich in which case they can be hammered with high gold requirements. A archmage can be like a dreadnought in a space game, super powerful but you need an entire economy to sustain it. You need to eat a King's Ransom ever time you shit a nuke.

 

[ArchAngel]

Quick one: is any form of necromancy in? Will I be able to become a liche?

Sorry, no necromancy in the base game. It has come up enough that i'm considering it for DLC.
We've made an allotment where you can build your mage tower out of bone. Maybe bodies.

Necromancy DLC is an absolute must. And not in a 'token evil mage' type as well. I fail to see anything remotely evil about Necromancy in any fantasy universe ever made. It's just as valid as fireballs and ice spikes.

Are you on drugs? Tell people you found a new weapon to kill their enemies which blows up enemies without need of big cannons and then tell you got another even more revolutionary method that will send dead people vs your enemies but you need to raid graves of their beloved ones first... lets see how long before you are hung from a nearest tree.

 

[V_K]

graves of their beloved ones first

This implies a rather western-(post)christian view of the dead. There's little reason it couldn't be completely different in a fantasy universe.

 

[ArchAngel]

graves of their beloved ones first

This implies a rather western-(post)christian view of the dead. There's little reason it couldn't be completely different in a fantasy universe.

Well this is a western fantasy as well and the previous ones he probably meant were based on western fantasy.

 

[laclongquan]

iT is a general feeling among humans. We dislike seeing the corpses of our deads walk the earth once more. I can tell you that necromancers dont have good rep among buddists or taoists~

 

[adrix89]

Capitalists love them zombies. Maybe you can "hire" them to work at the mage tower.

 

[Haba]

Maybe a powerful cabal of mages is regulating the magic related trade? Gives an angle where player as an outsider can break the regulations (and thus do all the schemes that make sense). Provides in universe reason why everyone isn't doing the same, plus a powerful end game foe as well.