Arcanum and Morrowind are still unsurpassed

[Bigg Boss]

And I'm keeping this in a separate post because I'm sure it will trigger a bunch of people, but...

Nope I disagree.

To me Morrowind is full of vivid memories and interesting interactions.

A woman I meet in the wilderness asks me to find her ring in a pond. As I dive into the pond to find the ring I suddenly get pelted with arrows. I come out of the pond confused, can't spot who is shooting at me. It was a trap. A near invisible archer wearing a ring of "chameleon" was waiting near the pond.

This is your idea of memorable?
To me, memorable was finding myself betrayed in the Dark Brotherhood questline in Skyrim, and racing on horse (skipping fast travel) back to the hideout only to find nearly all members had been massacred. The image of the old man nailed to nearby tree by Legion arrows beats nearly everything I've seen in Morrowind.

I almost agreed with you until you listed Skyrim as a good example.

 

[Funposter]

Haven't played Tamriel Rebuilt / Project Tamriel mods but they seem to be quite good mods. Unfortunately, the typical "Sjws" infest these projects. My friend was a developer and got kicked for having "wrong" political opinions.

Really? Damn. I thought these oldschool mod projects were safe from that disease.

I get the feeling that the team composition changed in between the Scared East (2012) and Old Ebonheart (2018) releases, just due to the amount of time that passed and the evident shift in developmental priorities and willingness to throw out old work, like the preview version of Almalexia. If true, it at least hasn't seemed to show up in the mod's content itself. In fact, I'd argue that the content actually seems to have improved. So even if the development team is full of faggots, weirdos, trannies, etc. the reverence for the original game and its tone seems to overwrite whatever dumb political opinions they have.

 

[Ehrenmann]

Haven't played Tamriel Rebuilt / Project Tamriel mods but they seem to be quite good mods. Unfortunately, the typical "Sjws" infest these projects. My friend was a developer and got kicked for having "wrong" political opinions.

Really? Damn. I thought these oldschool mod projects were safe from that disease.

I get the feeling that the team composition changed in between the Scared East (2012) and Old Ebonheart (2018) releases, just due to the amount of time that passed and the evident shift in developmental priorities and willingness to throw out old work, like the preview version of Almalexia. If true, it at least hasn't seemed to show up in the mod's content itself. In fact, I'd argue that the content actually seems to have improved. So even if the development team is full of faggots, weirdos, trannies, etc. the reverence for the original game and its tone seems to overwrite whatever dumb political opinions they have.

It is true that the mods stay true to the essence of Morrowind and the old TES lore. In this regard they are more competent than Bethesda and it really shows. Bethesda didn't want to bother making jungles for Oblivion so they literally retconned the old lore by saying that Tiber Septim magic turned it into a temperate forest. In Province Cyrodil mod there are actually jungles (although don't expect Amazon).

They do add some lgbtq characters in the mod though. Also, their interpretation of the lore is somewhat tainted by modern isms. Sane literate codexer will interpret Vivec as an androgynous and as such a divine being that is whole. They will just say he is genderfluid and shit. Same applies for interpretattion of Vivec's sermons. They often take them literally and are therefore convinced Molag Bal and Vivec sucked each other's dicks. My aforementioned friend was accussed of inserting racist agenda into the lore because he wrote about altmer having racialist ideas.

You can search up Anumaril on TR / PT discord and you will see people talking about him being a nazi, racist etc. I am not making this shit up.

Another former dev called R0 told me he may create a mod to remove lgbt characters so do not worry fellow
codexers.

 

[Funposter]

Haven't played Tamriel Rebuilt / Project Tamriel mods but they seem to be quite good mods. Unfortunately, the typical "Sjws" infest these projects. My friend was a developer and got kicked for having "wrong" political opinions.

Really? Damn. I thought these oldschool mod projects were safe from that disease.

I get the feeling that the team composition changed in between the Scared East (2012) and Old Ebonheart (2018) releases, just due to the amount of time that passed and the evident shift in developmental priorities and willingness to throw out old work, like the preview version of Almalexia. If true, it at least hasn't seemed to show up in the mod's content itself. In fact, I'd argue that the content actually seems to have improved. So even if the development team is full of faggots, weirdos, trannies, etc. the reverence for the original game and its tone seems to overwrite whatever dumb political opinions they have.

It is true that the mods stay true to the essence of Morrowind and the old TES lore. In this regard they are more competent than Bethesda and it really shows. Bethesda didn't want to bother making jungles for Oblivion so they literally retconned the old lore by saying that Tiber Septim magic turned it into a temperate forest. In Province Cyrodil mod there are actually jungles (although don't expect Amazon).

They do add some lgbtq characters in the mod though. Also, their interpretation of the lore is somewhat tainted by modern isms. Sane literate codexer will interpret Vivec as an androgynous and as such a divine being that is whole. They will just say he is genderfluid and shit. Same applies for interpretattion of Vivec's sermons. They often take them literally and are therefore convinced Molag Bal and Vivec sucked each other's dicks. My aforementioned friend was accussed of inserting racist agenda into the lore because he wrote about altmer having racialist ideas.

You can search up Anumaril on TR / PT discord and you will see people talking about him being a nazi, racist etc. I am not making this shit up.

Another former dev called R0 told me he may create a mod to remove lgbt characters so do not worry fellow
codexers.

This doesn't surprise me all that much after my brief experience in the Morrowind modding discord. They wanted to create a mod to supersede LGNPC (since it's shit) and they couldn't help themselves from inserting gay characters into the very first draft of the very first town. A few people, myself included, questioned whether or not this was particularly helpful or relevant and a minor chimpout followed. I couldn't be bothered arguing all that much and they don't seem to have actually released anything, anyway.

 

[Bad Sector]

Same applies for interpretattion of Vivec's sermons. They often take them literally and are therefore convinced Molag Bal and Vivec sucked each other's dicks.

Assuming you refer to sermon 14, this is exactly what happened, as Kirkbride wrote in 2005:

Two immortals had huge amounts of divine sex and so did all the onlookers-- priests and monsters and advocates and proletariats-- around them.

And the ground broke and gave birth to monsters.

Vivec's gift of "my head for an hour" wasn't an innuendo. It was literal: Vivec's damn head took off and flew away; it had stuff to do, yo. His body, however, full of divine grace, was more than able to accomodate the hellish appetites of a dark prince of the deep.

Also in a more recent article about Morrowind's development:

I do remember going, “Hey, does that mean Sermon Fourteen went through?” And Ken’s like, “Yeah, why?” I’m like, “OK, never mind.” He says, “No. Why?” I’m like, “You’ve read it.” And he goes, “Yeah, but should I read it closer?” Because it was like a holy treatise on blowjobs, heavily veiled in this made-up holy language. So it makes me laugh that, you know, 11-year-old Timmy’s like, “Hey, Mom. Check out this Xbox game!”

So yeah, this is about Bal and Vivec sucking each other's dicks (as did everyone else present too).

 

[Ehrenmann]

I do remember going, “Hey, does that mean Sermon Fourteen went through?” And Ken’s like, “Yeah, why?” I’m like, “OK, never mind.” He says, “No. Why?” I’m like, “You’ve read it.” And he goes, “Yeah, but should I read it closer?” Because it was like a holy treatise on blowjobs, heavily veiled in this made-up holy language. So it makes me laugh that, you know, 11-year-old Timmy’s like, “Hey, Mom. Check out this Xbox game!”

So yeah, this is about Bal and Vivec sucking each other's dicks (as did everyone else present too).

Nevermind, I took it symbolically and as such regarded sex as a symbol of a union of the two divine essences. Guess I expected too much.

 

[Cat Dude]

Haven't played Tamriel Rebuilt / Project Tamriel mods but they seem to be quite good mods. Unfortunately, the typical "Sjws" infest these projects. My friend was a developer and got kicked for having "wrong" political opinions.

Really? Damn. I thought these oldschool mod projects were safe from that disease.

Blame spineless white men for being afraid to stand up to this sjw crap.

 

[Funposter]

I do remember going, “Hey, does that mean Sermon Fourteen went through?” And Ken’s like, “Yeah, why?” I’m like, “OK, never mind.” He says, “No. Why?” I’m like, “You’ve read it.” And he goes, “Yeah, but should I read it closer?” Because it was like a holy treatise on blowjobs, heavily veiled in this made-up holy language. So it makes me laugh that, you know, 11-year-old Timmy’s like, “Hey, Mom. Check out this Xbox game!”

So yeah, this is about Bal and Vivec sucking each other's dicks (as did everyone else present too).

Nevermind, I took it symbolically and as such regarded sex as a symbol of a union of the two divine essences. Guess I expected too much.

Is it really that surprising that MK is/was actually just a weird sex pervert? Also a petulant child judging by his treatment of Douglas Goodall.

 

[Drunken Irishman]

Arcanum and Morrowind were the best RPGs of my early teens.

Will there ever be something to surpass them? Or are we doomed to live in a world where such greatness will never be seen again?

I'm going to try to engage with your thesis with all the solemnity and seriousness it deserves.

I played Arcanum this winter. I've played and finished it several times before, but this winter I got really annoyed with the game. I made it as far as Stillwater, before giving up.

The fatal flaw of Arcanum is the forced sequence of order: you have to do the Black Mountain Clan dungeon, you have to do the Isle of Despair, you have to do the whatever dwarf clan (two forced dwarf dungeons is asking a bit much from the player), before you can unlock certain regions of the world. And Black Mountain Clan is a badly designed dungeon, that isn't with enjoyable anything but melee characters.

But you can cast charm animal or invent the distracting smell and just run through it, someone says... yeah, still bad.

It would be a better game if the world was open from the start, if you could go already to Caladon from the beginning. But no, you have to invest 15-20 hours before you get to do that. And this time, the fatal flaw killed the game for me.

I do love my intelligent half-orcs, whether magic users or technologists. Half-orcs have to be careful who they mouth off or who they approach. Their second class citizen status is constantly reminded to them. It gives a good character motivation to pursue power. On the other hand, the reactions are mostly related to appearance, and if you magically enhance your beauty, everyone will be polite. That means, that you can easily get around this negative reaction. Still, it's my favorite character archetype to play.

It is true that more games should learn that aspect of Arcanum, givings you rich character creation options and acknowledging them in in-game. Learn from it and make it better.

It would be nice if there was another game like Arcanum, it's setting, it's music, it's character creation and building options. Don't have to make it Arcanum 2. Make a smaller game in the Arcanum world, set in Tarant. Or make your own industrial London inspired setting.

Regarding Morrowind: I don't really buy into the Morrowind vs Oblivion/Skyrim dichotomy. As if one was made by design gods and the others by nincompoops. Many of the flaws of those games are in Morrowind, and some more. Skyrim delivers a more reactive and fun gameworld than Morrowind.

Better writing too (as in in-game characters). Morrowind dialogues are literally a wiki page information dump. The world is interesting, but there is no one interesting living in it. Even Vivec is more interesting as a concept, as the weird character from the lore, rather than an actual in-game character.

There is however something intellectual and literary in Morrowind, that the future Elder Scrolls games not possess. The worldbuilding and lore are obviously created by well-read intelligent people, but also the visual imagery, the set-up, the things you do in-game... the endgame content is literally a descent into the deepest circles of Hell. Never mind the lore, visually and metaphorically you are actually going to Hell. The game manages to create these evocative mythical moments that neither Oblivion or Skyrim managed too.

 

[JarlFrank]

Arcanum and Morrowind were the best RPGs of my early teens.

Will there ever be something to surpass them? Or are we doomed to live in a world where such greatness will never be seen again?

I'm going to try to engage with your thesis with all the solemnity and seriousness it deserves.

I played Arcanum this winter. I've played and finished it several times before, but this winter I got really annoyed with the game. I made it as far as Stillwater, before giving up.

The fatal flaw of Arcanum is the forced sequence of order: you have to do the Black Mountain Clan dungeon, you have to do the Isle of Despair, you have to do the whatever dwarf clan (two forced dwarf dungeons is asking a bit much from the player), before you can unlock certain regions of the world. And Black Mountain Clan is a badly designed dungeon, that isn't with enjoyable anything but melee characters.

But you can cast charm animal or invent the distracting smell and just run through it, someone says... yeah, still bad.

It would be a better game if the world was open from the start, if you could go already to Caladon from the beginning. But no, you have to invest 15-20 hours before you get to do that. And this time, the fatal flaw killed the game for me.

I do love my intelligent half-orcs, whether magic users or technologists. Half-orcs have to be careful who they mouth off or who they approach. Their second class citizen status is constantly reminded to them. It gives a good character motivation to pursue power. On the other hand, the reactions are mostly related to appearance, and if you magically enhance your beauty, everyone will be polite. That means, that you can easily get around this negative reaction. Still, it's my favorite character archetype to play.

It is true that more games should learn that aspect of Arcanum, givings you rich character creation options and acknowledging them in in-game. Learn from it and make it better.

It would be nice if there was another game like Arcanum, it's setting, it's music, it's character creation and building options. Don't have to make it Arcanum 2. Make a smaller game in the Arcanum world, set in Tarant. Or make your own industrial London inspired setting.

Regarding Morrowind: I don't really buy into the Morrowind vs Oblivion/Skyrim dichotomy. As if one was made by design gods and the others by nincompoops. Many of the flaws of those games are in Morrowind, and some more. Skyrim delivers a more reactive and fun gameworld than Morrowind.

Better writing too (as in in-game characters). Morrowind dialogues are literally a wiki page information dump. The world is interesting, but there is no one interesting living in it. Even Vivec is more interesting as a concept, as the weird character from the lore, rather than an actual in-game character.

There is however something intellectual and literary in Morrowind, that the future Elder Scrolls games not possess. The worldbuilding and lore are obviously created by well-read intelligent people, but also the visual imagery, the set-up, the things you do in-game... the endgame content is literally a descent into the deepest circles of Hell. Never mind the lore, visually and metaphorically you are actually going to Hell. The game manages to create these evocative mythical moments that neither Oblivion or Skyrim managed too.

We are not in disagreement.

Arcanum has some of the worst dungeon/encounter design ever and I recognize that in the original post. Yes, the overall linear structure of the main quest could be more open, more like Fallout where you can skip ahead and just fetch the water chip if you know where to get it, skipping all the steps in between, or just straight-up go and beat up the master within the first 5 minutes like a degenerate speedrunner.

Regarding Morrowind, yes its NPCs are pretty generic, the amount of memorable characters can be counted on one hand, everyone else is just a wiki dispenser. I acknowledge that too.

But you just proved my original point: in the aspects the two games do exceptionally well, they have not yet been surpassed.
Setting, atmosphere, character creation, character reactivity, visual imagery, worldbuilding. Those are their great strengths, and nothing else comes even remotely close in these aspects.

 

[Ehrenmann]

Codex should put effort into making Arcanum modules. I looked into it some time ago and this thread makes me want to return to it.

 

[Drunken Irishman]

Setting, atmosphere, character creation, character reactivity, visual imagery, worldbuilding. Those are their great strengths, and nothing else comes even remotely close in these aspects.

Remotely close is a harsh statement.

On it's own, Morrowind doesn't really have character reactivity, or even character reaction that remarkable. It's like you are combining the strengths of both into the idea of the ultimate greatest game.

If such a game existed that was the best parts of Arcanum and best parts of Morrowind, then yes, nothing compares. But individually taken, many games* surpass them in some or other of those aspects you listed.

What about the merits of not rpg's that are otherwise good examples of setting, atmosphere, worldbuilding and game design? Like Thief. Or Dishonored.

RPG's yes, have not been that remarkable in ambition and vision, but then again, not even real Arcanum or Morrowind match this platonic Arcanumorrowind.

*not that many though

 

[JarlFrank]

On it's own, Morrowind doesn't really have character reactivity, or even character reaction that remarkable. It's like you are combining the strengths of both into the idea of the ultimate greatest game.

Yes, my idea for the ultimate RPG would conflate the best elements of both games into one. As it stands, Morrowind is merely unsurpassed in its setting, worldbuilding, exploration. Arcanum is merely unsurpassed in its reactivity and worldbuilding. Both are still up there in top ranks when it comes to character development. Taken individually, either game is unsurpassed in the things it does well: there is nothing that reaches Arcanum in reactivity, nothing that reaches Morrowind in alien worldbuilding and exploration. Character creation and customization is very strong in both.

What about the merits of not rpg's that are otherwise good examples of setting, atmosphere, worldbuilding and game design? Like Thief. Or Dishonored.

This is a good point. RPGs have largely confined themselves to deliberate mediocrity these days, but some games outside of the genre still try. Mostly within the genre of "immersive sims", which has always been the home of highly ambitious, detailed and experimental titles. Maybe RPG developers should look outside their genre, too, and take the good developments from there. There's some god-tier level design and some interesting systems out there that would fit well into an RPG. Something like Hitman's disguise mechanic or Thief's light and shadow mechanic would fit extremely well to an RPG set in a large city, where stealth and subtlety would be a good approach in many cases.

The problem is that Morrowind and Arcanum had the ambition but lacked in execution. Nowadays, most RPGs don't even have the ambition. They don't even try. That's why these old classics still stand at the top.

 

[Harthwain]

It would be nice if there was another game like Arcanum, it's setting, it's music, it's character creation and building options. Don't have to make it Arcanum 2. Make a smaller game in the Arcanum world, set in Tarant. Or make your own industrial London inspired setting.

I'd settle for a remaster. The main problem I have with Arcanum is how criminally small the main gameplay window is.

 

[prengle]

i hereby propose that we put morrowind chads and gothic schwuchteln into a big pit and let them duke it out in a battle to the death. the winner gets to experience the soulcrushing realization that both beth and pb have been churning out shittier, more soulless versions of the same game for nearly two decades. and obviously piranha bytes did a much better job despite the fact that risen 2 and 3 exist

It is true that the mods stay true to the essence of Morrowind and the old TES lore. In this regard they are more competent than Bethesda and it really shows. Bethesda didn't want to bother making jungles for Oblivion so they literally retconned the old lore by saying that Tiber Septim magic turned it into a temperate forest. In Province Cyrodil mod there are actually jungles (although don't expect Amazon).

They do add some lgbtq characters in the mod though. Also, their interpretation of the lore is somewhat tainted by modern isms. Sane literate codexer will interpret Vivec as an androgynous and as such a divine being that is whole. They will just say he is genderfluid and shit. Same applies for interpretattion of Vivec's sermons. They often take them literally and are therefore convinced Molag Bal and Vivec sucked each other's dicks.

condemning tr for this specifically feels particularly tonedeaf considering that there are several examples of blatantly homoerotic shit popping up in tes going all the way back to daggerfall, alongside vivec's aforementioned intersexuality. (i hate linking to tumblr but ladynerevar is kirkbride's wife as well as a former tr lead, so) for fuck's sake this is the game that has crassius curio in it. granted most of this stuff was spearheaded by kirkbride but my point still stands. feel free to bitch about grueling culture war bullshit all day long, but complaining about MUH GAYZ existing in a setting where they've already been present for ages and then acting as if people are just construing the source incorrectly is fucking irritating

and someone please feel free to point me to these gay npcs in tr, if they're real then i had no fucking clue they existed

 

[Ehrenmann]

It is true that the mods stay true to the essence of Morrowind and the old TES lore. In this regard they are more competent than Bethesda and it really shows. Bethesda didn't want to bother making jungles for Oblivion so they literally retconned the old lore by saying that Tiber Septim magic turned it into a temperate forest. In Province Cyrodil mod there are actually jungles (although don't expect Amazon).

They do add some lgbtq characters in the mod though. Also, their interpretation of the lore is somewhat tainted by modern isms. Sane literate codexer will interpret Vivec as an androgynous and as such a divine being that is whole. They will just say he is genderfluid and shit. Same applies for interpretattion of Vivec's sermons. They often take them literally and are therefore convinced Molag Bal and Vivec sucked each other's dicks.

condemning tr for this specifically feels particularly tonedeaf considering that there are several examples of blatantly homoerotic shit popping up in tes going all the way back to daggerfall, alongside vivec's aforementioned intersexuality. (i hate linking to tumblr but ladynerevar is kirkbride's wife as well as a former tr lead, so) for fuck's sake this is the game that has crassius curio in it. granted most of this stuff was spearheaded by kirkbride but my point still stands. feel free to bitch about grueling culture war bullshit all day long, but complaining about MUH GAYZ existing in a setting where they've already been present for ages and then acting as if people are just construing the source incorrectly is fucking irritating

and someone please feel free to point me to these gay npcs in tr, if they're real then i had no fucking clue they existed

Sir, I couldnt care less about the mere presence of homosexuals in TES. There is a difference in putting a gay character in because such people simply exist in the world, and putting in trannies and what not because you consider it a big problem that there aren't enough lgbtq+ people in TES.

Also, I do not understand why Vivec is referred to as intersexual, since it describes a medical condition rather than an ontological state of being.

"This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite."

- The 36 Lessons: Sermon 35

Vivec is a hermaphrodite. An androgynous divine being that is ontologicaly wholy. Not a genderfluid intersexual pansexual, as Lady Nerevar says. That is just bending the old lore to suit present politics.

They are viewing TES lore through the lense of modernity and its "social issues". If you had read my posts carefully, you would know that I actually praised the mods for being good. I merely pointed out that they are also made by a bunch of egalitarians, who firmly believe in the cause of sexual liberation and they regard it as their sacred duty to make TES more "inclusive".

I would like to provide you with more details, but a TR dev Ryteiler, a socialist furry, framed me and got me banned from TR / PT discord.

 

[Funposter]

Crassius Curio is a depraved pervert and his camp personality is played for laughs. That's a bit different to consciously including homosexual NPCs to prove some sort of point about contemporary society, as Ehrenmann pointed out. I will, however, admit that I haven't encountered any of these NPCs or they were at least written subtly enough that I didn't manage to skim-read between the lines. Maybe one of the guys from the Temple questline where you're trying to prevent the house war between Hlaalu and Indoril? That's vaguely jogging my memory.

 

[Zlaja]

I am glad you asked.

Actually great games from the past: Fallout 1/2, Gothic 1/2, PST, Ultima Underworld, etc.

So, you criticize Arcanum for mainly having shit combat, and then you praize PST? The fuck!?

I played Might and Magic 6 when I was 12. You guys were still in your diapers or non-existant

My main memory of playing MM6 for the first time, was my aching index finger. The game is literally a genocide simulator.


And speaking of Morrowind, my favorite moment is when I first entered Vivec city, and heard those famous words:

"I'm watching you....scum!"

 

[Drunken Irishman]

This is a good point. RPGs have largely confined themselves to deliberate mediocrity these days, but some games outside of the genre still try.

The problem is that Morrowind and Arcanum had the ambition but lacked in execution. Nowadays, most RPGs don't even have the ambition. They don't even try. That's why these old classics still stand at the top.

Not a fan of Disco Elysium, then?

But yes, I agree.

The interesting games have been evolutionary dead ends and it's the boring ones that get copied.

I'm not that up to date on current games, but even I can see the incestuous relationship between Witcher 3 and Assassin Creed games. Witcher 3 made it's world more like an Assassin Creed world and Assassin Creed made it's gameplay more like Witcher 3. The result: big-budgeted games that look nice, but are boring to play... that is, if you are the person that has been actually exposed to real good game design.

Ignoring the storytelling merits of Witcher 3, it's so bland in quest design and world exploration. If a location doesn't have a cutscene, then it's a worthless location. Every quest eventually repeats a similar pattern: cutscene interrupted by boss fight, then chase sequence and another boss fight.

The rpg designers are probably looking at the wrong kind of games to emulate.

 

[JarlFrank]

Not a fan of Disco Elysium, then?

Loved it, in fact. One of the rare gems that try something new and explore a different direction. I hope it's gonna have some amount of influence on the genre, but considering the amount of work that went into it, I doubt most developers would bother copying its more memorable features.

Age of Decadence was also an interesting game. I don't entirely like what it did with its structure, but at least it tried something different, explored new avenues.

My most anticipated RPG is Space Wreck, which seems to take Arcanum's design philosophy and push it further - exactly what I've been waiting 20 fucking years for.

But all of these games have one thing in common: small teams of hobbyists making their dream game and accepting the risk of commercial failure/the fact that their game is a niche product for a specific audience. They're the only ones who dare experiment anymore.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

So, you criticize Arcanum for mainly having shit combat, and then you praize PST? The fuck!?

If you have to eat shit, it's much easier to eat a little shit than a TON of shit.

 

[Shadenuat]

things Morrowind has going on for itself, when CRPG standards are concerned, are atmosphere (the unique surrealism of the setting itself), the near absolute freedom of the character building system

yea RPG can never be legendary on just these 2 premises

lol

shit combat dungeons

truth is, they don't really matter in these kind of games (aka TRUE FUL SCALE RAPEGE TM), because these games are problem solving games, not tactical games. the whole thing is solving problems/challenges in the way you imagine your character would solve them. for interesting problems to arise you need interesting premise (setting) and to solve them, you need a sexy character building system.

you could probably remake fallout/arcanum into some text quest, it would lose some due to their grafix having a lot of cool factor but still probably be interesting to play

This is your idea of memorable?
To me, memorable was finding myself betrayed in the Dark Brotherhood questline in Skyrim.

morrowind pondoambush is a sensible presentation of dunmer ganking which can easily slay your character (Just Like Life); Skyhrim example u give is just linear plot device.
it's like playing under old ad&d DM "rolled bad? eh, make new char I guess" vs. "ohoh I made this long ass quest chain you can't interrupt which leads to totally not predictable wow moment"
sometimes, simple can be just as good.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

... because these games are problem solving games, not tactical games. the whole thing is solving problems/challenges in the way you imagine your character would solve them.

How did you solve cliff-racers and wiki dialogue and combat?

 

[Shadenuat]

How did you solve cliff-racers

I prefer to make permanent invisibility ring
you can have a surprisingly pacifist playthrough in mw

btw, you don't need animal scent or charm in Arcanum much; because with high AP you can just run through location to location, enemies wouldn't even react. Agility of Fire is enough to pass most of BMC
i kinda like turning rats into ash with tesla staff tho.

 

[prengle]

snip

cramming a gay character into something for the sole purpose of racking up woke points is fucking awful, yes. as much as i hate to admit it, i personally think the twitter crowd has the right to slap those labels onto vivec in this one instance because.. he's an androgynous intersexual godking that'll fuck anything that moves, he just.. is. kirkbride has gone on record several times stating that he just really wanted to put a hermaphrodite on the xbox for shits and giggles. obviously these aren't the core defining aspects of his personality and it just serves to reinforce vehk's nature of duality, and twitter drones/journos who project current year ideologies onto old pieces of media are fucking dumb, i just don't really think that's the case with vivec specifically.

also vivec is a pompous, egocentric psychopath that has his own muatra lodged up his ass 24/7, but i suppose that's par for the course when it comes to us gays

rytelier is known for being fairly.. thin-skinned, so i can't say i'm terribly surprised. then again the "lol furries are oversensitive" meme is several decades old by now

Loved it, in fact. One of the rare gems that try something new and explore a different direction. I hope it's gonna have some amount of influence on the genre, but considering the amount of work that went into it, I doubt most developers would bother copying its more memorable features.

feel free to try and be optimistic, but even if you liked disco there's no way in hell the industry at large is actually going to pick up the "right" lessons from it. mouthbreathers are going to read reddit threads and think "PEOPLE LIKE POLITICS IN GAME WE MUST ADD MOAR POLITICZ!1!!1" and we'll have a dozen half-baked indie rpgs by 2040 with surface level 500,000 word long discussions about the marvels of democratic socialism. the last decade has already proved we can't have nice things :/