Arcanum and Morrowind are still unsurpassed

[JarlFrank]

Loved it, in fact. One of the rare gems that try something new and explore a different direction. I hope it's gonna have some amount of influence on the genre, but considering the amount of work that went into it, I doubt most developers would bother copying its more memorable features.

feel free to try and be optimistic, but even if you liked disco there's no way in hell the industry at large is actually going to pick up the "right" lessons from it.

Nah, I'm fully aware that copycats will only take the surface level things without understanding what made the game work, and then they'll scratch their heads when their game fails.

Kinda like how Tides of Numenera tried to copy Planescape Torment, but completely fucking failed because it learned all the wrong lessons from PST. Too many words words words without saying much of interest. No thematic coherence. A plot that felt like a less interesting clone of PST's plot, with the same basic setup but way less personal investment.

Or how Pillars of Eternity tried to "fix" the Baldur's Gate formula but completely failed at every aspect.

It's gonna be exactly like that.

 

[Ehrenmann]

snip

cramming a gay character into something for the sole purpose of racking up woke points is fucking awful, yes. as much as i hate to admit it, i personally think the twitter crowd has the right to slap those labels onto vivec in this one instance because.. he's an androgynous intersexual godking that'll fuck anything that moves, he just.. is. kirkbride has gone on record several times stating that he just really wanted to put a hermaphrodite on the xbox for shits and giggles. obviously these aren't the core defining aspects of his personality and it just serves to reinforce vehk's nature of duality, and twitter drones/journos who project current year ideologies onto old pieces of media are fucking dumb, i just don't really think that's the case with vivec specifically.

also vivec is a pompous, egocentric psychopath that has his own muatra lodged up his ass 24/7, but i suppose that's par for the course when it comes to us gays

rytelier is known for being fairly.. thin-skinned, so i can't say i'm terribly surprised. then again the "lol furries are oversensitive" meme is several decades old by now

I admit I initially overestimated the competence of Morrowind writers to write a serious lore, however, it doesn't change the fact that nobody in 2002 would think of things like genderfluidity, pansexualism, intersexualism etc. those topics were pretty esoteric back then.

Rytelier, the Soule of TR as he pompously called himself, is an utter retard. He took a cropped screenshot of a joke conversation I had with a PT dev and used it to claim I want to genocide americans. He did this because he didn't like the political opinions I expressed so he started to search through other discord for "wrong think". He is no longer a member of TR anymore though. He got butthurt and left but I don't remember why.

Anumaril's banishment from TR dev team and subsequent ban was a turning point for TR / PT. Mind you that he was banned for political opinions he expressed on another discord server, not TR. It established that it isn't a neutral grounds for making a Morrowind mod. That is why the dev team is now full of the typical social justice front. It is expressly forbidden to jokingly refer to argonians as "things" on TR discord.

 

[prengle]

morrowind is an incredibly unconventional game which naturally attracts weird people, i've seen she/her programmer-sock-wearing discord lefties releasing mods along with incredibly vocal autistic edgelord nationalists. i'd say it's a fucking miracle there aren't more inane slapfights in the community, but morrowind is wrinkly and old so that probably helps

 

[wwsd]

How did you solve cliff-racers and wiki dialogue and combat?

Playing a mage/archer kind of character lately, I realised MW throws you a lot of curveballs, but also offers a solution to every one of them.

Cliff racers? Marksmanship or Destruction Magic.
Can't pick locks? Alteration (Open).
Getting tired of jumping up mountains for shortcuts? Alteration (Levitate).
Slaughterfish? Alteration (Water Walking).
Didn't invest in Personality/Speechcraft? Use Illusion magic, Telvanni bug musk, or create your own Fortify Personality potions or enchantments.

In the past I found it very tempting to just bash everything that moved, since being a pure caster is a bit too cumbersome. Many players will probably gravitate towards a Warrior/Rogue mix with one or two magical schools as support at most. But this also creates its own problems: in the beginning, being unable to hit targets a lot. And later on, no matter how powerful you get, you still have to engage every fucking cliff racer and whack it over the head with your vastly overpowered longsword. Is this really fun?

People treat this as an inevitable weakness of the game, but in fact the game offers several avenues to avoiding this, whether you snipe all animals in the area with your longbow before they even see you (even better with critical damage) or you just use spells/potions/enchantments to fly past them while invisible. Although it's not possible to complete the main quest without combat, in some cases the main quest does explicitly offer you invisibility potions to go around problems.

Dialogue is what it is of course. Quests will point you towards the characters with relevant unique dialogue, otherwise it's safe to assume that most NPCs will be useless to you, as is usually the case in real life.

 

[Valdetiosi]

Dialogue is what it is of course. Quests will point you towards the characters with relevant unique dialogue, otherwise it's safe to assume that most NPCs will be useless to you, as is usually the case in real life.

Adding to this, what improvement did Oblivion and Skyrim give to this? NPCs spout few fixated lines and that's about it for them. In Morrowind asking from various topics is nice bit of trivia, to fill you with more information, even if it's written like animal documentary film. Oblivion has rumours that tries to do that, but voice acting limitations can do only so much, and for Skyrim, I feel like nobody was filling me up with info or backstory, unless it was part of a quest.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Codex should put effort into making Arcanum modules. I looked into it some time ago and this thread makes me want to return to it.

I'm doing exactly this, at the moment. I've taken into account most of the criticism of the game I've seen on these boards, so it's going to be focused on reducing trash mobs, providing alternative routes to combat heavy areas and rehabilitating some underwhelming aspects, like Firearms and Traps. It's about 80% done, so a release is likely soon.

Unfortunately I can't change stuff that is hardcoded, apart from some variables in hex. You'll still have shitty combat, but it'll be slightly less shitty for some builds and there'll be less of it.

 

[Ehrenmann]

Codex should put effort into making Arcanum modules. I looked into it some time ago and this thread makes me want to return to it.

I'm doing exactly this, at the moment. I've taken into account most of the criticism of the game I've seen on these boards, so it's going to be focused on reducing trash mobs, providing alternative routes to combat heavy areas and rehabilitating some underwhelming aspects, like Firearms and Traps. It's about 80% done, so a release is likely soon.

Unfortunately I can't change stuff that is hardcoded, apart from some variables in hex. You'll still have shitty combat, but it'll be slightly less shitty for some builds and there'll be less of it.

That's great! I honestly did not expect anyone to actually do it. I've been thinking about making a module past few days, but I would have to replay the game with a technology focused character. I only played a pure mage so I have no clue what it entails. It's the reason I ultimately did not pursue module making some years ago. I just didn't know what items I'd need to put in, how to balance progression with schematics etc.

 

[Bliblablubb]

Took me so long to read the OP, I got a "you need to be logged in to do that" error when I tried to fist it.

 

[JamesDixon]

Daggerfall is better than Morrowind in every aspect. I'm only saying this because I hate Todd Howard.

 

[Bliblablubb]

And Black Mountain Clan is a badly designed dungeon, that isn't with enjoyable anything but melee characters.

Wait, wasn't that the dungeon full of golems that made my party wipe by punching themselves to death on them after their weapons broke 2 rounds in, while was to busy cursing my uneffective firearm? The reason I decided to say "FUCK YOU TECH" and restarted as a mage? We sure do have different memories of fun it seems.

Unpatched game tho to be fair.

 

[Bliblablubb]

I mean, don't get wrong, I still idolize Arcanum probably far more than it deserves, from the time little past-me played it. Childhood memories and all that.
But the combat was crap.

I was so hyped for steampunk and so utterly let down how bad tech was for all the hassle it required. Pre patch I couldn't even carry loot, since all my slaves were overencumbered with all the ammo I had them lug around. For guns dealing the dmg of a dagger.
Compared to magic warriors with enchanted items dropping left and right... yeah.

But looking back I think I actually misunderstood the premise. Tech wasn't meant to be superior individually, but easy accessable for everyone. The numerous masses. A single mage could still wipe out a army, but they were few and a dying breed.
But, being a young boy playing as such a demigod, I could not grasp it yet...

OMG I played it wronk!
Man, this like a therapy session.

I also remember being upset because Raven was a racist who only liked pureblood dicks. Being a human-elf-prosper-hybrid ruled me out, without even knowing I missed something. IIRC it was actually a bug?

Probably should play it again. Or watch somefag play it.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Guess this is the general purpose Arcanum thread?

Don't know if anyone pointed this out before, but the name for Tarant possibly comes from the author's previous work

Also it appears he has a wife(? relative?) named Diane. Interesting.
Incredibly detailed work, btw.

[edit]
found this in another one of his works

[edit2]
I believe Edward R. G. Mortimer is the fellow in the middle? So we finally have a face to put on that name.

And thus ended(?) his contributions to Judges guild in 1982.

 

[Alan]

Is JarlFrank dying or something?

 

[JarlFrank]

Is JarlFrank dying or something?

Not that I know of.

 

[Inland Empire]

Has anyone posted this before? From an interview with Chad Moore:

GB: An individual by the name of Edward R. G. Mortimer is credited as the game’s main writer. From what I can tell, he was an editor and contributor to Judges Guild, a pen and paper RPG publisher from way back in the day, but very little is known about him. Can you shed some light on who Mr. Mortimer really was and what he did for Arcanum?

CM: My memory on this was pretty fuzzy, so I had to go straight to the source: Tim Cain. Tim told me that Edward G. Mortimer was a designer from the Judges Guild - a company that made modules for D&D and AD&D back in the 70’s and early 80’s. Mortimer wrote some really good modules for them, so Tim contracted him to do some additional writing for Arcanum. Back then it was much more difficult to coordinate with employees remotely, so most of what he wrote was additional material for our generated dialog system. Although he didn’t end up being a major contributor over the long term, Tim was happy to have worked with (and hired, in fact!) one of his favorite JG designers.

For my part, the one thing I remember about Edward R. G. Mortimer was that he had the snazziest pair of rainbow suspenders I have ever seen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/arcanum/comments/ou31ve/was_researching_the_writer_credited_for_arcanum/

 

[Häyhä]

Guess this is the general purpose Arcanum thread?

Don't know if anyone pointed this out before, but the name for Tarant possibly comes from the author's previous work

Also it appears he has a wife(? relative?) named Diane. Interesting.
Incredibly detailed work, btw.

[edit]
found this in another one of his works

[edit2]
I believe Edward R. G. Mortimer is the fellow in the middle? So we finally have a face to put on that name.

And thus ended(?) his contributions to Judges guild in 1982.

"Tarantia" is also the name of the capital city of Aquilonia, the major western Kingdom in Conan the Barbarian stories.

 

[luj1]

JarlFrank was just thinking today how both games have dwarves that disappeared, coincidence?

 

[Shadenuat]

yea mortimer wrote for fantasy magazines, i believe he is supposed to be the mind behind most of cool writing in game.
fitting with name of the game and nature of lot of its companions and NPCs, he is kinda a mystary.

 

[JarlFrank]

JarlFrank was just thinking today how both games have dwarves that disappeared, coincidence?

Good mysteries are the best plot/lore element for RPGs as they're very conducive towards exploration.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Is JarlFrank dying or something?

Not that I know of.

"Vulnerant omnes, ultima necat."

That's the thing, you never know until it's too late...

 

[skaraher]

I felt that even in Morrowind there was a divorce between Kirkbride shennaningan and what the characters were like in person. Like for exemple Vivec, his dialogues were written by a different guy (Ken Rolston or Ted Peterson ?) and while it retained some of his mystique, it heavily toned down all the "omnisexual shiftyfaced trickster god" schtick to tell a more down-to-earth story of a Lawful-Good self-made god losing touch with the reality of his people, ending up forming a police state, fighting a losing war against an ever-growing evil, that kind of stuff. Morrowind's strength was bridging the gap between the weird and the mundane, it sure wasn't a lolrandom bizarrofest.

"I remember. I do not feel it. I can, if I choose, remember the feeling. But I do not choose. It is very, very sad being mortal. There is happiness, yes. But mostly sadness. As I have said, "Count only the happy hours." For mortals, they are all too few. But for gods -- for me -- there is no more feeling. Only knowing. [Pause] Not quite no more feeling. I still want to win. I want to defeat Dagoth Ur. Perhaps I have lost the feeling for the people, for their suffering. I don't want that feeling. It is no use to me. That is no longer what matters to me. I only want not to lose. To lose would be very, very bitter."

"Why did I cause others to suffer? I respect that question, and you for it. The most I can say is: I did the best I could, as I saw things. Can you, mortal, presume to judge the actions and motives of a god? But, because I need you, and you need me, I will make an accounting for my sins, to you. But not now. Destroy Dagoth Ur, and then we will discuss my sins. Then, perhaps, you will have earned the right to judge me."

"Why did I try to kill you? Because you threatened the faith of my followers, and I needed their faith to hold back the darkness. And I thought you were my enemy -- a pawn of the subtle Daedra Lord Azura, or a pawn of Emperor Uriel Septim, or a simple fraud -- perhaps a Hero -- but not much of one if my faithful could destroy you. Now circumstances are altered. I need you, and you need me."

Vivec's quotes in the actual game.

Come to think of it, while Morrowind storyline remained strong up until this confrontation with Vivec (The Hortator and Nerevarine questline makes up for an outstanding third act and interacts nicely with all the relevant factions' storylines), the very final dungeons fell rather short (especially compared to Daggerfall's Mantella Crux) which contributed to set up this trend of lackluster final dungeon/boss in latter Elder Scrolls.

But on the contrary I think Arcanum suffered very much from an unfinished and empty third act. The elf city, magetown and the island of thanatos were blatlanty void of any interesting content.

 

[Demo.Graph]

Come to think of it, while Morrowind storyline remained strong up until this confrontation with Vivec (The Hortator and Nerevarine questline makes up for an outstanding third act and interacts nicely with all the relevant factions' storylines), the very final dungeons fell rather short (especially compared to Daggerfall's Mantella Crux) which contributed to set up this trend of lackluster final dungeon/boss in latter Elder Scrolls.

But on the contrary I think Arcanum suffered very much from an unfinished and empty third act. The elf city, magetown and the island of thanatos were blatlanty void of any interesting content.

Morrowind was unfinished.

The problems with balance are too numerous to mention. Out of the top of my mind:
- random loot drops are OP (you can get very expensive items really fast),
- a single spell that makes a whole skill irrelevant (Open, lockpicking),
- NPC spells aren't dangerous,
- levitation and teleportation turn Red Mountain into a triviality (I had finished it without them once - it's a completely different experience, Red Mountain becomes a hard and protracted final act that requires preparation),
- alchemy is OP,
- illnesses are very dangerous from a plot point of view but are completely irrelevant from gameplay standpoint.
(The fact that all these weren't fixed in addons is a sure sign that Bethesda stopped caring about the quality of the game.)

If balance issues aren't enough, there's also an almost empty eastern area of the map and the fact that questlines are really uneven in their power level and quality of quests.

 

[Shadenuat]

none of those are real problems, the main problems is lack of life in the world with static NPCs - that punches out most possibilites for good quests, and horrible animations of combat system that doesn't really exist, something modders never were able to fix.

Morrowind fails at things that made Gothic a good game.

and i don't think size is such a problem. Morrowind is mostly populated at its southern area, so having some nice reactive quests and life at that small area, and leaving a big part of the world a deadly wasteland full of ash, overrun fortresses and dungeons, would have been fine.

 

[Hag]

I felt that even in Morrowind there was a divorce between Kirkbride shennaningan and what the characters were like in person. Like for exemple Vivec, his dialogues were written by a different guy (Ken Rolston or Ted Peterson ?) and while it retained some of his mystique, it heavily toned down all the "omnisexual shiftyfaced trickster god" schtick to tell a more down-to-earth story of a Lawful-Good self-made god losing touch with the reality of his people, ending up forming a police state, fighting a losing war against an ever-growing evil, that kind of stuff. Morrowind's strength was bridging the gap between the weird and the mundane, it sure wasn't a lolrandom bizarrofest.

That's actually a good thing since it makes the character more complex. If Vivec talked to you like a madman you could dismiss his books and legends as crazy ramblings, however since he looks articulate and down-to-earth it gives more weight to his backstory and power. Also reminds you how much of a mortal he is still and that despite accessing to godhood and unveiling the secrets of the universe he ends up weak and isolated. And that fits really well in the backstory of the Tribunal ego tripping and leading the dunmers astray from the daedras.

Of course, it is all good but probably tangential to the point that having him talk clearly to the player was needed gameplay-wise, since he gives instructions and lore and his dialogue entries are long enough to not have them obfuscated by crazy talk and weird hints at some books most players never read.

 

[luj1]

in Morrowind there was a divorce between Kirkbride shennaningan and what the characters were like in person

thats the whole point doofus

it shows he is a mortal (and false god) who cheated his way into godhood