Any game that does spell-casters right?

[flabbyjack]

Make spells need regents which are not abundant.

That feature is annoying as *#$(. Almost as bad as requiring food/water.

 

[Jaesun]

Worked awesome in the Ultima series (until you were overflowing with gold).

 

[Mastermind]

Make spells need regents which are not abundant.

Give warriors quasi-mystical abilities at higher levels. Like in anime.



http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php ... nts&ref=mf


Problem realismfags?

 

[laclongquan]

Warriors: close combat variants: Fight up close, mostly personal one on one.

Warriors, ranged combat variants: Fight from afar, mostly personal one on one.

Obviously, in term of combat variants, spellcasters should go the way of "Attack multiple targets". Since that would be overpowered, stacked it with "Long delay spell attack", "Very weak damage at low level", "Low armor rating at all level", "Better damage at high level".

You could open up multiple build:

1. better defense rating at levelups: Better Barriers spells, for example, so that casters can withstand some more hits while they chant Battle Magic of Destruction. This obviously for ones like to mix his casters with frontline troops

2. better damage at level up: Lower level spells yield measly damage mostly as mop up action after warriors deal most of damage. With levelups the magic damage get better. Obviously this suit casters surrounded by bodyguards.

3. Status affecting components of spell: you can add some Status affecting components into spell, learn at levelup. It has a low chance, or precise requirement, of activating while damage is dealt. suit all positions.

As for magica users role in non-combat portions, that entirely depended on storydesigners.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Dark Heart of Uukrul does the whole spellcasting thing quite nicely, I think. All spellcasters (i.e., magicians and priests) lose spell points very quickly, making you use more costly spells really sparingly, especially given the scarcity of healing items and other consumables. Priests' prayers are more powerful than magicians' spells but tend to fail more often than not (the gods tend to not answer the priest's prayers or even strike him down for outreaching his station, making him lose quite a lot of HP). Both magicians and priests are physically pretty frail and the battle areas aren't exactly large, so quicker enemies can surround the spellcasters, which means certain trouble. Also there are enemies that can silence your magician and/or priest, making them worthless for at least several turns.
Plus the magic system itself is unique in Uukrul and, I think, well-balanced vis-a-vis the melee combat aspect. The developers certainly put much effort in that.

 

[Storyfag]

Of course adding interesting spellcasting system could change this, if magic was dangerous perhaps players wouldnt simply cast cast cast. But I dont really remember a single game like that.

Mage: The Ascension did that right with the paradox rules.

Also Warhammer Fantasy Role Play 2nd edition (after finally importing the miscast concept from Warhammer Battle after it existed there 20 years). Basically, every time a spellcaster casts a spell, he has a chance to accidentaly summon a very, very angry daemon in the process. Plus a chance for a host of lesser problems like making the party's food supplies rot or attracting

 

[SCO]

Since you didn't pay attention to research: in Aleshar using magic is powerful. However it comes with a semi-hidden cooldown, random type. If you do it too much your heart explodes and you die.

Best part of a horribly simple rpg.

Edit: well, second best. Best was getting lost in a storm and dying of hunger because you didn't have a map or a compass.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Make spells need regents which are not abundant.

 

[laclongquan]

Make spells need regents which are not abundant.

until players found a loophole that allow unlimited supply of regents, either by buying or grinding or whatever. Tell me one game use that feature to that effect and I can tell you the loophole of that.

 

[Mastermind]

Make spells need regents which are not abundant.

until players found a loophole that allow unlimited supply of regents, either by buying or grinding or whatever. Tell me one game use that feature to that effect and I can tell you the loophole of that.

Dungeon Lords.
The spells were so shitty it didn't matter how many regents you had, they still weren't worth casting.

 

[TNO]

I think spell components or other resource limits could work (didn't a cast of stoneskin cost like 250gp once?) However, most RPGs suffer from massive loot gloat to leave your player swimming in resources after a while. Fix that too and you'll be in business.

This 'hidden, randomized cooldown' idea strikes me as really good. You could even keep the currently imba powers of most magic systems so long as you made the cooldown steep enough. Mages could blast away and be generally demigodlike, but with the nagging fear that doing so too much risks doom and bad things. It also forces more canny play if you simply do not know how many spells you 'get'. In short, magic becomes a weapon used only if you're in real trouble. It also makes it more scaleable - instead of 'well I get three magic missiles a day', it is more 'I would rather not use any spells, but if I am really in trouble I can shoot off as many as I need - albeit with increasing risk of catastrophic failure.

A related idea is having some general measure of how many spells you have ever cast, with some set of adverse or otherwise effects at certain thresholds (bit like the MOTB mechanic). Lots of settings have elderly mages going crazy or evil or whatever, and adding this worry to the player acts to further balance them.

Of course, you could combo all three. Keep magic at its usual imba self, but make it very expensive, with hidden cooldowns tied to adverse effects to discourage too big a gorge of spell slinging, as well as a general counter of magic use, also tied to adverse effects, to again encourage magic to be used sparingly. If I ever play D&D again, I'll definitely use that.

More direct feedback (e.g. adverse consequences like perils of the warp etc.) are not such a good idea, as in computer games you'll just reload.

Maybe there is a general principle here. Players tend to be uncertainty-adverse. Thus forcing uncertainty can balance options that would, in principle, be OP.

 

[laclongquan]

But let me say this upfront:

As of this moment There is no indie storywriters make magic works in a game setting. You guys just dont have the imagination for that. Keep yourself to SF and you will be fine. Magic, it require a precise calculated and order mind to set it up properly for a game.

Leave magic out of your game. You could disguise science as magic and it could work, if you really want magic in your game.

 

[Gord]

Certainly Realms of Arcania series. Wizards are a must for the success but they will never become omnipotent artilery platform. They have plenty of utility spells, can heal wounds and will assist in combat but they can't do everything. Actually, having one wizard and another wizard/warrior class (eg. an elf) is enough. That reminds me, I really must finish Shadow over Rive one day.

This. Even in the more action-oriented Drakensang games they still scale somewhat reasonable.
The PnP system those games are based on is set in a (mostly) relatively low-magic world and there are very few spells that do high AoE damage or affect groups of enemies. Still, especially against single enemies, mages can be very dangerous. Also you have to watch your mana (but Drakensang switched to auto-regen).

 

[szoreny]

Make magic subtler and the stakes of combat higher. Would work best in a TB system where martial types do the killing and the health system is not HP based. Warriors would be distinguished by how long they could defend themselves against a fatal blow.

Morale, skills, position and equipment would determine combat outcomes and mages could be lurking in the bushes using fucking magic to demoralize and distract the enemy, maybe just enough for your guy to put him on his ass or move an ally into position for a disabling/killing blow.

Yes mages would be support only, but since combat would be so vicious, support effects could really turn the tide.

Sussing out enemy magicians and putting arrows in them would be a good idea....preferably pre-battle with a daring scout getting him in the neck while he's lolling around the enemy camp.

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Or maybe in a different system with more outrageous spell effects you could limit your spell-casters not by raegant counts necessarily but by some other rare resource. Like a living enemy to draw hexes through -
with the catch that only a warrior or strongman could provide such a thing and an enemy might only live through a few minor spells or one major effect.

As for games that put real balanced ideas into practice....

I've always been satisfied with cast-per-day systems, you could really make that an effective limitation with inn/campsite-only resting and timed quests that made you think twice about wasting hours sleeping with your companions.

 

[oneself]

Mask of Betrayer
Impose potentially huge penalties on resting.

 

[Volourn]

Components are awesome. Anyone who hates on components are pieces of fukkin' shit.

 

[GarfunkeL]

During the closed beta of Age of Conan, Funcom had a really clever system, where casters spamming spells ran a risk of having their souls dragged into Abyss, from where they then had to fight their way out. Of course they ditched it when people complained that they lost their caster during an instance-run or mid-raid, fucking crybabies. Could be great for a party-based single-player CPRG, though.

In essence, casters had to ration their spell-casting, you couldn't exploit the system and you didn't need to grind or anything.

 

[Daemongar]

Make spells need regents which are not abundant.

until players found a loophole that allow unlimited supply of regents, either by buying or grinding or whatever. Tell me one game use that feature to that effect and I can tell you the loophole of that.

Isle of the Xenkian Monks, U7SI, the search for mandrake: Players can only find mandrake when the salt tides are in. Mandrake is limited, and only found at certain intervals. (Ok, this was for the player spellbook, but could work to ration strongest components.)

Fens of the Dead, U4, Nightshade: Players can only find Nightshade by searching on a moonless night on the area east of Britain (this kept the number of uber spells down, and Nightshade wasn't for sale anywhere.)

It is possible to keep players from getting too powerful. Low and mid-level spells are usable with mana and components, mega spells are only usable here and there.

 

[Daemongar]

I do have a problem with the OP's original premise, though. It's very hard to balance all the primary, typical D&D classes. Mages, Warriors, Rogues, Clerics all serve a part and can be handy in their own way, but balance doesn't mean a 10th level mage vs. 10th level rogue should be an even fight.

D&D had an XP system in 1st and 2nd edition which balanced classes not by level, but by xps. A high level mage would be a lot lower level than a rogue with similar xps. They added feats and other things in 3rd ed to try to balance all the classes, and added more 1st level mage spells.

So saying that mages will always be powered on a level vs. other level basis, but mages were the most expensive. However, my rogue with a cheap cap with a permanant silence 15' radious on it dares any mage to step up.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Fantasy RPGs should either be entirely about mages being demigods or about barbarians being huge, oiled and muscular manly men with mages being demigod boss fights.

Personally, I prefer my tabletop DnD as relatively high level all arcane spellcasters campaigns.

 

[Sergiu64]

Betrayal at Krondor - wizards are extrmely powerful but have three major obstacles barring them from gaining the ultimate power. 1). They can't cast spells in battle when there's an enemy on adjacent square (there is a very expensive item that remedies that) 2). Wizards use up hp to cast each spell - the more spells they cast the more vulnerable they become. Also, the fact in BaK the lower your hp is the lower your your abilities become (including spellcasting, as well as defence) does make magician's life more difficult. 3)You need to find/buy spells yourself. No "learning as you level-up" nonsense. In order to become arcane master you must explore the world around, prove your skill, finish complex quests etc. How I miss this element in modern day magic-systems.

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This

Made fights against casters fun too, do you scramble towards the enemy spellcasters and leave yours undefended, or protect yours and hope he can disable enemy casters before he gets locked down. It was made a little broken by a couple OP spells like Skin of the Dragon, but all in all it was the best system I've seen.

 

[Raapys]

Not really a fan of games trying to do the whole 'balance' thing with mages. It either seems to make them incredibly boring to play, or it encourages cheesy playing and exploiting game mechanics, often in a very tedious way.

Nah, I prefer my mages as they are in BG2.

 

[Yeesh]

Dominions III.

Eventually, just about all mages will start casting crazy shit and either pass out from exertion or blow themselves up.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

People always seem to neglect that 3rd ed scales poorly across the board, for every class. Even the developers insinuated when developing 4th ed that one of the glaring issues with 3rd edition was that the 5-12 range was way more satisfying and balanced than the rest of the game.

 

[oscar]

Part of the problem is that in most rpg's a fight against a powerful enemy spellcaster is quite rare. Sure you fight tons of trolls and giants who rape at melee but it's very rare you fight someone who clearly outclasses you in magic (from what I hear Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale did this quite well).

This is accentuated by enemy spellcaster AI usually sucking balls (using bad spells and using them unimaginatively, not being guarded by "tanks", lacking the wide repertoire of magical cloaks and potions the PC's have).

Better enemy spellcasters would open up more use for fighters. If your just fighting endless hordes of kobolds, of course fireball spam is going to be more useful then swords and bows. This is accentuated when the "rest" function is easily available or mana regenerates.