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Age of Wonders 3

  • Thread starter Multi-headed Cow
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MrBuzzKill

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Aug 31, 2013
Messages
695
The big downer of Aow I/II/SM's tactical combat was the fact that you could play out the same encounter twice in the exact same way and come out with two completely different results. I hate games that do that, it was especially infuriating with the ranged units, I had a good number of ragequits when a lone low tier ai melee unit killed like 3-4 of my archers that couldn't hit him from point blank range. Is III still like that?
I'd say the random factor plays a sizable role but not to the point where it's annoying like you said. IIRC units don't miss in AoW, they can just hit for more or less damage. Sometimes the target's armor is so high the damage is effectively negated, making it look like a miss.
I was misled by the fact that they have multiple figures for squads now, unlike in AoW1 and like in MoM. I was actually really happy they did that when I first saw the screens, it never occurred to me that they weren't about to change a core game mechanic just to make more similar to MoM
 

adddeed

Arcane
Possibly Retarded
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May 27, 2012
Messages
1,528
I personally like the fact that unlike HoMM for example, there is no loss in damage from units with low health. Makes the battles more tactical.

when did "shoot at one unit until it's dead" became tactical?

granted, AoW3 still has the best tactical battles out of all 4X games right now, but it's in spite of, not because of this mechanic.
.
You shoot at one until it dead regardless. I dont get what you're trying to say here. But making enemies weaker as they lose HP will just make the battles worse.
 

hoverdog

dog that is hovering, Wastelands Interactive
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I personally like the fact that unlike HoMM for example, there is no loss in damage from units with low health. Makes the battles more tactical.

when did "shoot at one unit until it's dead" became tactical?

granted, AoW3 still has the best tactical battles out of all 4X games right now, but it's in spite of, not because of this mechanic.
.
You shoot at one until it dead regardless. I dont get what you're trying to say here. But making enemies weaker as they lose HP will just make the battles worse.
possibly_retarded.png
or rather even
dumbfuck.gif
 

Snozgobler

Educated
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Feb 7, 2014
Messages
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If units get weaker when they take damage, it makes positioning for the first engagement even more important because you can cripple the opposing force in one fell swoop if you can get all their units low. For example, if each of your unit's attacks take 3/4 of your opponent's units health, after one engagement you have them all at 1/4 health and their effectiveness is severely compromised.

The biggest impact I see of the system however would be in siege situations without flying/wall climbing. The introduction of a system where effectiveness diminished with damage would mean attackers would be at much more significant disadvantage unless they brought along long range siege weapons/spells to take out ranged enemies harassing their troops attacking the gates or extremely sturdy battering rams.

It might make the game a bit slower, but I think I'd enjoy a slightly more thoughtful game where it's not as simple to just rush five enemy cities/forts in one turn.
 

Eyeball

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Sep 3, 2010
Messages
2,541
After playing both this and Endless Legend, I have to conclude that EL is a much better fantasy 4X. AOW3 seems strangely soulless by comparison.
 

Norfleet

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Jun 3, 2005
Messages
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After playing both this and Endless Legend, I have to conclude that EL is a much better fantasy 4X. AOW3 seems strangely soulless by comparison.
I wasn't aware EL was actually a thing. I thought it was still in the unfinished vaporware stage.
 
Self-Ejected

ZodoZ

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Messages
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Released about a week ago. Short review: fucking great, bad AI.
Bad as in Fallen Enchantress bad or what?

AOW 3 AI seems not too bright either considering first moves by enemy seems to be either charging out of their stone fortress or splitting off in small groups or individually to charge my units. Which now that I realize a unit with 1 health is just as strong offensively (albeit briefly) as a full health unit is not very clever. 1. Send in cannon fodder like hell hounds. 2. Focus fire from safe distance. 3. Win.

One thing very nice atm is using the Cannon. The blow through on that is a nice mechanic I haven't seen before. Like the engineer's blunderbuss spray too :) I'm early in the human campaign so not sure what other units have in store. I do feel kind of cheap flying the recon unit around and picking up city upgrades, etc. Ah well, games all have their own personalities. Either like 'em or don't.

The units not losing attack power despite losses "is" putting me off this game now I have tried Eador: MotBW. Just doesn't feel right.

I recall I enjoyed AoW 2 but that has been a while.
 

Zeriel

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Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,972
Endless Legends AI makes AoW 3 look like a goddamn Deep Blue tier genius.
 

Absinthe

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Jan 6, 2012
Messages
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Been playing it. The empire quests change things up slightly.

A lot of them are small bonuses, but a few of them are decent enough to consider going a bit out of your way for. Being the first person to construct a Grand Palace gives you an extra 10 casting points. And the two bonus secret spells from being the first to research a 6th level (or higher) spell (Sage quest) are a bit hit or miss. If your luck is sour, you might get garbage bonus spells, but there are solid odds of getting strong spells out of it. All-Knowing typically comes too late to be relevant, but obviously it has its benefits if you reach that stage. When they say 2 random specializations, that means you can randomly get masteries without their prerequisites.

Wild Magic and Partisan are nice specializations. Partisan does seem to overlap too much with the Rogue class. Some of the stuff stacks well enough with playing a Rogue but you still feel like it's overkill. They have an empire upgrade that gives all lone (ie. stack of 1) units Wetlands, Forest, and Mountain Concealment. Then again you could always get a Sorcerer hero and store up 15 skill points for Master Illusionist at level 7 to get a completely invisible stack (yes, the sorcerer hero provides much better concealment than the rogue hero). The War Anthem morale debuff spell is solid (all enemies take -500 morale if they fail the resist) when it hits and the cheaper mercenary rates naturally makes hiring mercs a better option.

Wild Magic is an interesting contribution. I like Wild Magic Adept as it gives you a bunch of good spells (one is a massive AoE debuff, another gives an enemy +60% all weaknesses, another summons a random lesser elemental which is fairly strong, has a ranged attack, and a unique ability, which can also evolve into a regular elemental, and the last spell switches one unit's position with another random unit of the same tier from another player, very nasty if you use it for hero swaps - can't do leader swaps). That's what a specialization should look like imo, a basket of good options. Mastery has some useful stuff I guess (not too sold on it tbh), and it has two 6th level spells unlike every other mastery which has a 5th and a 7th, so it helps with rushing Sage bonus.

Haven't really tried out halfling race yet. Seems to be the only race with actual evasion (including spell evasion), which can be powerful. Their evasion depends on their morale though. If a Partisan lands a War Anthem on them, halflings are distinctly less impressive. If you ever have halflings on a clover buff though, their evasion gets pretty damn strong. Halfling units seem more unique than the other races, but as I said, I haven't tried them yet. I notice Halfling Apprentices (Sorcerer class unit) get Minor Bard Skills (+200 morale to army) as an extra.

New Seal victory condition creates a decent change of pace from the usual win condition of killing all your enemies.

The new mystic buildings are fairly potent, if you can build them and if you are actually using the shit they upgrade.

I'd say the DLC is decent, all told. You're better off getting it.
 
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Absinthe

Arcane
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Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
It took them way too fucking long to admit they fucked AoW 3 by homogenizing all the fucking units though. The Golden Realms expansion was at least decent enough to recognize that Halflings need to be actually distinct but there's still entirely too much "race as a collection of stat modifiers" shit.

Also, I've tried rushing Sage Empire quest now and with the AI being a cheating bastard they usually beat you to the punch. So it's worthwhile in multiplayer, but not so much in single player. I think it's doable if I rush even harder for Sage bonus but right now it doesn't seem to work too well. By the way, for people trying to research shit in AoW 3 to get specific spells/upgrades, I've discovered a pattern in researching crap in AoW 3. Research is divided as follows:
  • Seafaring/Casting Points/Class Unit Tiers
  • Empire Upgrades
  • Overland Spells
  • Combat Spells
For Empire Upgrades, Overland Spells, and Combat Spells, their slots are further divided into Class upgrades and Specialization upgrades. Avatar abilities (like Dispel, Disjunction, Terraform, Resurrect Hero) count as Specialization for slot competition. So if you triple stack Explorer/Expander/Partisan all your specialization empire upgrades are going to compete with each other for the same precious research option slots, making it hard as fuck to get the abilities you actually want. Similarly if you have one magic specialization with spells you actually want and two others that you're only grabbing for a single spell you might be interested in, those two others will compete the shit out of the spells you really want to get.

So far the two empire quests that are doable and worthwhile to rush are the Grand Palace rush for an extra 10 casting points and Arcane Item Forge for a free magic item (which is often enough a mount).
 
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Absinthe

Arcane
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Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
I mean unlike previous Age of Wonders, in AoW 3 not only are there less racial units (bye Tier 4) but all the units are stupidly similar and equivalent to each other across races. Part of what made AoW 3's reception so goddamn lukewarm was its goddamn blandness. Other shit that hurt it is the removal of overland unit enchantments, removal of overland area spells, and the fact that land units can walk on all terrain now (which also completely fucked the appeal of naval units which are still water-bound). Instead of Cosmos magic in AoW2:SM we have new magic specializations with lousy offerings and the old specializations (a bunch of bonuses your hero/empire started with) were removed and now Explorer/Expander are new-type specializations so you can research some shoddy empire upgrades.

Basically AoW 3 on launch was Class Uber Alles and everything else got shafted to remind you how fucking important the class gimmick was because you should focus only on Class Units and Class Spells and shit. The end result is that we looked at AoW 3 and decided we wanted AoW 2: Shadow Magic again. That was how fucking bad it got. Also they removed LAN multiplay and want everyone to use their Triumph online login system for multiplayer, the faggots. If you don't get it through GOG.com, it will be Steam DRM too, which is why I didn't get a physical copy of the game.
 
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Multi-headed Cow

Guest
If you don't get it through GOG.com, it will be Steam DRM too, which is why I didn't get a physical copy of the game.
Actually the Steam copy's DRM free too. You still get the Triumph login prompt like always but I just ran it without Steam running and it was fine.

Edit: May have spoken too soon. Looks like they check the DLC using Steam 'cause it's saying I should buy Golden Realms when I own it. What a stupid way to handle it. "Hey bros let's make our game on Steam DRM free but validate the DLC with Steam because ???"

Edit 2: Even weirder. Still doesn't recognize the DLC if you sign in to Triumph's dumb thing. Even though it says "Yeah you've Golden Realms on this account".
 
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Snozgobler

Educated
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
97
Unfortunately Steam have some uber retardery in their protectionism. Many of the issues consumers have when dealing with companies that use their own distribution platforms outside of Steam stem for Steam integration, and for smaller game developers, not being on Steam is often more detrimental than losing out on the sales Steam can bring.

All hail the DRM free nature of GOG.com
 

Norfleet

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Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
The "everyone walks on water" thing seems to be one of those things designed to simplify life for the AI, which has traditionally failed at the entire process of producing an invasion force, producing necessary transports, producing the necessary escorts, loading the invasion force into the transports, escorting the transports to the destination, and unloading the transports. It's a complicated process that even humans traditionally have struggled with, and AIs pretty much fail miserably at.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
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Jun 3, 2005
Messages
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I personally hate "we're simplificating this cuz our AI is dumb", its such a lame excuse.
It is, but it's also easy to understand why. A complex game the AI can't play isn't really a satisfying experience, either.

AoW1 AI seemed to pull it just fine, but then again thanks to AI cheating it pretty much owned the seas, best thing you could do was find a alternate route or do some clever Galleon navigation.
Only the lizardmen! The rest of the AI nations were hopeless unless they had massive numbers to work with, and even then they tended to lose boats in great numbers. Also, I remember seeing a gigantic navy constructed in a tiny puddle lake to nowhere.
 

Phage

Arcane
Manlet
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Jan 10, 2010
Messages
4,696
Want to add a disclaimer that I'm pretty new to strategy compared some of the posters here. Mostly just played a shitton of Civ 4/5, some Alpha Centurai, and some random RTS/tactics games. Never touched HOMM or anything like it, so this was a first for me.

I've finally gotten into the game and put in a dozen hours. I completed a few campaigns, but I feel like those force you to simply rush the AI as quickly as possible, and as a whole seem very linear and somewhat lackluster. Played a random map - Large, Land, 8 players. shit dragged on forever (should have played it on normal size I guess?) and the AI for the most part was a pushover (played on Knight, I figured Knight would be like Normal in campaign, but the campaign was much higher difficulty).

Am I missing something here? Game feels somewhat... shallow? Yes, the manual combat can be somewhat deep, but I found myself auto resolving every match that I was certain I wouldn't use any important units in just to save time. The units you build in the game feel fairly samey regardless of race/class. The real variety seems to stem from spell choice. Exploring the map is neat at first, but I have a sinking feeling there really isn't that high a variety of things to discover. On that note, is there even really a point of clearing out Legendary and Ancient level dungeons? Risk seems to outweigh the reward, but what do I know.

Is there a certain map type, difficulty or scenario I should play to better experience this title?

Otherwise, I do own the other age of wonders games. Which one of those is the best?
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
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Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Shadow magic but they all should be played in order. They tell a story. And don't skip AoW 1 either, it's a very good game in its own right, possibly better then 2. The campaign rpg system it has was abandoned later on in the name of 'balance' for only keeping heroes for 3 levels, beh...
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,778
Yep, the game's pretty shallow and they've really screwed it with making units class-dependant. Also devoid of charm and soul, like most games today. Previous games in the series are better, you didn't mention playing Master of Magic, being a fan of MoM makes you appreciate them much more. I still think they're a bit overrated and not really in the top tier though, the combat can be ridiculously random at times and you basically rush most scenarios with uberheroes only using normal units for guarding stuff.
 
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Shadow magic but they all should be played in order. They tell a story. And don't skip AoW 1 either, it's a very good game in its own right, possibly better then 2. The campaign rpg system it has was abandoned later on in the name of 'balance' for only keeping heroes for 3 levels, beh...

1 is better than 2. 2 is as bland as 3 was initially on release. Yeah the 2-Shadow Magic campaign system is boring, loved the classic one, because not only you could carry heroes across maps, but units as well, and it was less linear and more epic. The original's main problem was the ridiculous super-heroes, just pump defense early on and you can pwn pretty much anything weaker than level 3, especially if you get first strike and a lightning or cold attack (cold was best) attack for stuns. Your army pretty much existed to fill spaces around your leader, kill and distract the stuff that could kill even your high-level heroes stone-cold dead - Ballistas, Reapers, other heroes, cannons, multiple level 1 stacks, dragons, karaghs, air galleys, giants, yetis and everyone's favorite hero killer - Nature Elementals with their entangle strike. In 2 they were at least nerfed by the limited retaliation attacks so you could't get a entire army killed in a turn just by bum-rushing a hero.

Also, I hate that 2 took player numbers down from 12 to 8. I loved having 11 CPU players of every race in a big-ass XL map, it was just fucking epic.
 

Phage

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Manlet
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Jan 10, 2010
Messages
4,696
Decided for the time being I'm going to try to get a little more out of AoW3 before writing it off.

Latest set of quirks:

- My prior game (the Large map, Knight difficulty that I mentioned in my last post) ended with the AI allying with me, forming a group of 4. Kind of strange that the devs allowed the game to end via hugbox like that given its emphasis on war.
- Going against what I said last post, I realize how easy it is to steamroll Legendary dungeons with T3/4 units, so I can totally understand plundering them now.
- AI doesn't seem to understand how to expand its empire correct, at least on knight. I might be mistaken, but it looks like it prioritizes slamming cities next to dungeons - except they were unconquered, so I'm pretty sure they weren't getting any resources from them......
- On that note, the AI didn't seem to clear out the nodes near its cities of neutral monsters - which I'm again, pretty sure, prevents them from getting the resources off those.

- Playing a new match. This time standard map on the difficulty above knight - prince I think? This time going as a halfling sorcerer. I do have to admit that the battles are playing out differently since I have to avoid melee combat where possible. Turned off city settling since leaving it on will likely lead to me leveraging the ability to settle resource-rich cities and amassing an advantage.
- First AI I met DoW'd me. I marched my second hero+units to his closest city and had a really intense manual battle. Had to admit that was a great highlight. After beating up his leader+hero+4 unit stack and taking the city, he immediately surrenders to me. Upon accepting I found out that you obtain all of the AI's cities/units if they surrender... :lol: This gave me another well developed city, and a 6 unit stack with 2 heroes in it. Not too sure if it's possible for me to lose the match now.


I get the feeling that people here will just tell me to stop playing and try out a different game, but I figured I'd share some of my stranger experiences. Does this kind of shit happen in the older games too?
 

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