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Game News Age of Decadence Released on Steam Early Access

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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Do you need to be told that a merchant should have trading, persuasion, streetwise, and etiquette?
"Dear developer, I wasted a lot of time creating my original character, Wolfus Belmont Sephiroth (there's a drawing of him on my deviantart if you want). He's half-demon and the last magi in the world, graduated when he was 8 as the first of his class at the Teron Academy of Merchants, and after single-handedly defeating 100 men (with his famous black sword "Tempestbringer") he became know as "The Merchant of Death". How should I spend my points to make him persuasive, a master trader, a good fighter and able to cast spells?"
 

hiver

Guest
Yeah, not rocket science, but something like a "This skill is mainly useful for merchants and thieves" note at the end of Streetwise's skill description is not that fucking offensive and should help people to not fall into the trap of neglecting it in favor of others that have more obvious uses, like Trading.
It is fucking offensive - and actually incorrect.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Vault Dweller I don't think people want "easy". They want "hard, but not TOO hard". Problem is, I think the way your game is designed, that's a balance that's very difficult to achieve. The line between "overwhelmingly difficult" and "cakewalk" may be very thin.
Here is how I see it.

We've been through it twice - combat demo and the first full demo. People try, people fail, people ask what the fuck is this unbalanced shit (we've lost Skyway this way :never forget: ), people bitch and move on. Some people keep on playing, learn the system, and discover - drum rolls, please - that the game is not TOO hard. Then they go and ironman it to make a point.

So, the issue, as it appears to me, is that some people want to succeed now! As the reviewer said, he doesn't want to master systems, he wants to play! Fucking adorable when you're 8. Not so adorable when you're a bit older.
Hey, if you're cool with the complaints, no prob. Heck, this reviewer just clicked the awesome button anyway. It just may be something you might want to add before the official release. That or really beef up your - prepare to die marketing. ;)
 
Joined
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Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Yeah, not rocket science, but something like a "This skill is mainly useful for merchants and thieves" note at the end of Streetwise's skill description is not that fucking offensive and should help people to not fall into the trap of neglecting it in favor of others that have more obvious uses, like Trading.
It is fucking offensive - and actually incorrect.

Explain.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
So, the issue, as it appears to me, is that some people want to succeed now! As the reviewer said, he doesn't want to master systems, he wants to play!

The "problem" is that playing a game is the same thing with succeeding now.
To actually have to put some effort into it is a bad thing.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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BTW VD, now that you're on early access, will we get stuff like Totalbiscuit doing a "WTF is AoD"? That could be fun.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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As far as I know he doesn't do RPGs. Anyway, we got like 20 requests from 'professional' LPers and Youtube personalities. While I doubt that it's the best way to present the game (watch me failing to kill the first guy for 4 hours), I sent them keys for the lulz.
 

hiver

Guest
Skills aren't that simple. Obviously a merchant should have persuasion, but every character has opportunity/need to persuade others now and then. Saying "persuade is for merchants" will just make people angry when a persuade check appears for a thief or loremaster.
Streetwise is the same. All builds have use for it - and how much use there is depends on how much skill points you invest into it. And how you really want to play.

There is actually no build where streetwise is not useful inherently, just because.

As for being offensive - noting such blatant things in CS itself does insult intelligence of players for whom this game is made.
Players dont need that shit.

What those who have no idea about games like this need is a very short guide with general directions.
Those who want more can read the more detailed official guides.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
As far as I know he doesn't do RPGs. Anyway, we got like 20 requests from 'professional' LPers and Youtube personalities. While I doubt that it's the best way to present the game (watch me failing to kill the first guy for 4 hours), I sent them keys for the lulz.
In other words, more comedy gold is on the way! :lol:
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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He did Shadowrun Returns and Divinity: OS, but didn't do Underrail, Blackguards, Conquistador or any of the others... I guess he did only because of the Kickstarter hype then...
 

Lhynn

Arcane
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Messages
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As far as I know he doesn't do RPGs. Anyway, we got like 20 requests from 'professional' LPers and Youtube personalities. While I doubt that it's the best way to present the game (watch me failing to kill the first guy for 4 hours), I sent them keys for the lulz.
He doesnt do RPGs because he feels he cant give a fair preview of the games in this genre (which is fair enough), more like hes too lazy to put in the time and learn the game to do it. When he does find a fun easy to get into RPG he will do a "wtf is" of it, either that or just wreck it with poor criticism most of the times.
 
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Skills aren't that simple. Obviously a merchant should have persuasion, but every character has opportunity/need to persuade others now and then. Saying "persuade is for merchants" will just make people angry when a persuade check appears for a thief or loremaster.

Streetwise is the same. All builds have use for it - and how much use there is depends on how much skill points you invest into it. And how you really want to play.

There is actually no build where streetwise is not useful inherently, just because.

Well obviously I didn't mean a definitive "Choose this if you're a merchant", but the descriptions during chargen giving me some idea of what, say, a loremaster is expected to be proficient in isn't the same as telling me how to play.


As for being offensive - noting such blatant things in CS itself does insult intelligence of players for whom this game is made.
Players dont need that shit.

What those who have no idea about games like this need is a very short guide with general directions.
Those who want more can read the more detailed official guides.

I don't get it, small notes during chargen are the equivalent to being called a retard but guides are okay? If people feel like they're being treated like a retard if they get a few tips before the game begins, reading a guide would feel like wearing a dunce cap.

Anyway, this sounds like it's about some sort of philosophical point of view on character creation and not a matter of practicality, so meh.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
He did Shadowrun Returns and Divinity: OS, but didn't do Underrail, Blackguards, Conquistador or any of the others... I guess he did only because of the Kickstarter hype then...

I don't know about Shadowrun, but I'm pretty sure he did Divinity: OS because the devs contacted him. D:OS probably owes a lot of its relative success to a huge outreach attempt towards the end of the campaign.
 

hiver

Guest
God... im not sure i could take that much of "iSSSSueSS". It would be maybe just interesting to see if the fat fuck can see anything good in the game, but if he doesnt - then its going to be based on totally stupid assumptions.

I don't get it, small notes during chargen are the equivalent to being called a retard but guides are okay? If people feel like they're being treated like a retard if they get a few tips before the game begins, reading a guide would feel like wearing a dunce cap.
Hopefully ill manage to write something easy to read. Then youll see.

An official game guide goes into a lot of details and is usually written for people who already know the basics of such games, or have enough knowledge to actually understand these specifics. A usual casual will only get confused by an official game manual.
Mine will just give short simple general pointers - without any specifics about which skills go where or any mechanics mathematics.
Thats the difference.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
263
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
It's not exactly rocket science.
You're certainly right about that, Mister Dweller, but I unfortunately think that it's you that's out of touch with all things RPG.

You see, the entire point of role-playing is not to suffer from the chains of some arbitrary limitation like a character sheet, but instead to be provided the freedom to achieve things in an alternate, often fantastical world. Your sense of progression and the actual audience's is entirely out of balance. To you, a character should not be able to progress if they haven't refined the skills for whatever task is needed, and it somehow makes sense that said character - who I might remind you is -our- personal fantasy - can't do something that we decide they should be able to do just because of skill sheets. To provide a scene that would, say, allow our character to bake a cake stuffed with poison to assassinate a target, but then fail us simply because our baking skill is -37? So what if my character has no sense of taste or smell in their traits? You provide us the option, I expect us to be able to pass this option regardless. Otherwise, what's the point? It's a fake option. It's there to simply make the game look 'hardcore', when in fact, it's just bad role-play. You're preventing content for my character based on an arbitrary skill check.

You see, Mister Dweller, it's not about playing around what you don't have, but being rewarded for what you do have instead. As you say, this isn't rocket science. Skills are meant to provide a semblance of progression and, absolutely, I agree that focusing on them should be important, but you don't punish people for a lack of dedication, merely reward those that go through with it more - in related categories to the skill, of course. You either bake the cake, or the bake the cake so amazingly that the emperor rewards you an estate before he eats it. The former is my role-playing the character, and the latter is rewarding my dedication to aligning skill choices with what I role-play. Options. Failure is no option amidst this. The game doesn't tell me what I cannot do. That's not what games, especially role-playing games, are about. They're about fun, remember?

Please, for your sake, research the genre a little bit more and look at the greats. At no point in Baldur's Gate or Dragon Age, especially, did I feel pushed back because I didn't put all of the silly skill points in the right places. I play what I want to be, and the games are merely tactically challenging rather than anally so. Oh, so I can kill some dangerous thugs in Age of Decadence, but making basic pottery eludes me? Give me a break.

Contact me if you want someone to help you with this, by the way. In my P&P groups, I have a special system for rewarding characters efforts in ways aligned to their attributes and skill setups without punishing them. For example, one player in my group decided to attack a Balor with his mage's quarterstaff (+1), and rolled a 20. I looked at the stats and, though he did no damage according to the silly D&D rules, I decided that a roll of 20, and with 21 intelligence on his mage, it was fair that, I quote, "You surgically remove the Balor's brain with your indepth and intelligent (see how I focus it, there, so he knows why he's rewarded?) knowledge of alien anatomy". I am a very popular DM.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,962
Its always better to have players learn intuitively through gameplay, this is why im saying a tutorial would go a great way to make the game more enjoyable without compromising the integrity of the product.

The Glitterdust Golem your way of DMing is retarded.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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Contact me if you want someone to help you with this, by the way. In my P&P groups, I have a special system for rewarding characters efforts in ways aligned to their attributes and skill setups without punishing them. For example, one player in my group decided to attack a Balor with his mage's quarterstaff (+1), and rolled a 20. I looked at the stats and, though he did no damage according to the silly D&D rules, I decided that a roll of 20, and with 21 intelligence on his mage, it was fair that, I quote, "You surgically remove the Balor's brain with your indepth and intelligent (see how I focus it, there, so he knows why he's rewarded?) knowledge of alien anatomy". I am a very popular DM.
I honestly can't tell if this is trolling or people really think this is smart.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
greats... Baldur's Gate or Dragon Age

I looked at the stats and, though he did no damage according to the silly D&D rules, I decided that a roll of 20, and with 21 intelligence on his mage, it was fair that, I quote, "You surgically remove the Balor's brain with your indepth and intelligent (see how I focus it, there, so he knows why he's rewarded?)

:what:

You see, the entire point of role-playing is not to suffer from the chains of some arbitrary limitation like a character sheet

I would suggest then switching genres to something that doesn't have such arbitrary limitations, hmm?


Overall :3/5:
Would scroll over next time.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
To you, a character should not be able to progress if they haven't refined the skills for whatever task is needed, and it somehow makes sense that said character - who I might remind you is -our- personal fantasy - can't do something that we decide they should be able to do just because of skill sheets.
:bravo:
 

Zed

Codex Staff
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Codex USB, 2014
Please, for your sake, research the genre a little bit more and look at the greats. At no point in Baldur's Gate or Dragon Age, especially, did I feel pushed back because I didn't put all of the silly skill points in the right places.

Yeah VD. Research the genre ffs. Play some BG and DA. The greats.




:)
 

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