About reagents for spellcasting. Which system do you prefer?

[Lord Rocket]

equalizer

This I strongly disagree. IMO just like equality cultism is destroying IRL world, balance cultism is destroying RPG's fictional worlds. Reagents can bring risk/reward, be a money sink, make certain spells expensive to cast among other things. But no edition is better ballanced than 4E and this is the worst edition by far.

that's because WotC balanced 4e by making everything the same (ie. gay)
og editions balanced by making MU's (note to zoomers: that stands for 'magic user') highly vulnerable, ie. they're high-risk high-reward characters. If you got body checked by a fighting man you were done (no concentration skill for you! what a fucking stupid concept btw, yeah it's possible to continue casting a spell after getting your arm hacked off. nice one, v verisimilitudinous), if a thief stole your material components you were done, if a cleric silenced you you were done. MU's needed their party and their party needed them. totally different concept of ballinse vs later eds

 

[Cryomancer]

making everything the same

Agreed. And lets be real, MU where strong in 2E and become even stronger in 3E. Way more spell slots, gaining spells from level up, without needing to find scrolls or learn from a mentor, stronger in melee with way bigger hit points + half bab, spells are overall harder to resist, way more spells which bypass MR and way less creatures with high MR/SR(...)

I"m all for makign magic more dangerous. Being interrupted while casting fireball having a chance that it blow up in the caster's hands, summoning spells far more dangerous, invisibility with a chance to break among other things. And getting high level spells(7/8/9) being a long quest in itself involving a long and arduous research.

As for how casters needs to be in relation to martials, IMO depends on the setting. In a Dark Sun campaign where everyone hates magical users and scrolls are insanely hard to find, being a MU should be insanely hard, getting even low level spell scrolls and components, pretty hard and using in a way which doesn't make you an wanted man, extremely hard. In a Netherese campaign, MU should be insanely powerful.

 

[Comte_II]

What crpgs use reagents beside ultima?

 

[Tao]

I like to differentiate between two types of magic: the normal spells and the ritual magic. For the first one i don't like reagents, i think is enough with somatic or/and verbal component with option of high level caster being able to bypass them for low circle spells. But for rituals i think is very thematic that you need materials, time, place, incantations and all that jazz. The problem to debate is always in witch category you put a spell.

 

[Cryomancer]

What crpgs use reagents beside ultima?

Many.

• Stoneskin, Legendary proportions, raise dead(...) and other spells in Kingmaker
• Shroud of the Avatar mid and high level spells(all of them) No reagent required for an watermage to cast ice arrow, but to make a healing rain which also hurts undead, 3 reagents are required
• In ToEE, reagents aren't required but the money cost of the reagent is deduced from your money
• Some mmos like Mortal Online require reagents for all spells
• (...)

 

[gaussgunner]

And the last option is for the inumerous guys who hate magery but appears in every single threat that I make.

I'm not a fan of magic in RPGs generally, but I like idea of spellcrafting systems where you experiment with combinations of runes/reagents/foci to create your own spells with different effects, ranges, shapes, targetability, unpredictability, power sources, power levels, efficiency, etc - sometimes ridiculously unbalanced. It's ok if a few mostly passive spells are effortless abilities. But powerful spells should require more than just mana/stamina potions. Specific reagents is one way. Other spells could require tapping into a major leyline. Some should physically hurt the caster, or require a blood sacrifice (possibly an enemy), or a bond with a specific god/angel/demon/etc. Some should require a focus object that's difficult to find or create, awkward to carry around, or emits some signal that alerts enemies to its presence, or gives off evil vibes that drive good people away from you, or good vibes that drive evil away, or gay vibes that drive normal heterosexuals away. There should be an emergent logic of side-effects and synergies that goads you into specializations and allegiances.

tl;dr magic in AAA games is banal, but there are some interesting possibilities for indie cRPG devs who put their energy into systemization instead of amazing graphics.

 

[laclongquan]

What crpgs use reagents beside ultima?

Many.

• Stoneskin, Legendary proportions, raise dead(...) and other spells in Kingmaker
• Shroud of the Avatar mid and high level spells(all of them) No reagent required for an watermage to cast ice arrow, but to make a healing rain which also hurts undead, 3 reagents are required
• In ToEE, reagents aren't required but the money cost of the reagent is deduced from your money
• Some mmos like Mortal Online require reagents for all spells
• (...)

Morrowind.

 

[Reinhardt]

well, mages already wearing dresses and high heels, making them carry around yuge louis vuitton bags for reagents is only natural.
of course if it doesn't match dress and shoes their magic will be much weaker and they are more susceptible for taunts and other cc.

 

[Dadd]

Not only should it require extra materials but also it should have a risk to backfire on your whole party.

 

[Cryomancer]

dresses

Robes = What your master uses
Dresses = What your master forces you to use

IS that hard to understand?

high heels

Was invented by dwarfs since they hate being manlets and wanna appear taller.

risk to backfire on your whole party.

I think that depends on the spell.

 

[Reinhardt]

Was invented by dwarfs since they hate being manlets and wanna appear taller.

you misspelled "elves" - 1,5m, 40kg "males". no wonder they are so popular among orkz.

Robes

IT'S MA'AM!

 

[Cryomancer]

you misspelled "elves" - 1,5m, 40kg "males". no wonder they are so popular among orkz.

Most male elves are gay, but what is the problem? It makes female elves more available for humans. And that is the reason which makes half elves outnumber pure elves 10/1 in most D&D settings.

--------------------------

Back to reagents. There are also games which has reagents not to cast spell but to learn spells. The most iconic examples are mmos.

For eg, I'm playing EverQuest(p99), reached lv 29 as an necromancer and some spells like dooming darkness and boil blood, is merely go to vendor and buy the scroll, but others, you need a book with recipes for research which is often written in ancient languages(and you need to learn this languages - nowadays you cna just look the recipes in wiki), farm mobs which drops the words and reagents necessary to research and then, combine the words in your book of dark biddings, after this, if the research skill check succeeded, the caster makes the scroll. If fails, he lost reagents.

In project gorgon, learning spells or training the respective school require reagents to do so. And some skills like ice magic requires training other skills first.

Both games also has reagents for spells, bone chips are required for all pets and the strongest necromancer pet, Emissary of Thule, requires a peridot too

 

[thesecret1]

Reagents for rituals, not for spells. Otherwise, what's even the difference between a spell and a consumable, mechanics-wise? Alchemist throws an exploding potion, mage uses a reagent, both cause an explosion. It's just redundancy at that point

 

[thesheeep]

I chose reagents never required.
In theory, you can design a magic system where reagents make sense and can even be fun to acquire - especially for strong rituals.

But in practice, all that games (especially PC games) have done is that you need to carry X amount of Y in your inventory and then you can cast Z.
It's stupidly mundane busywork that is impossible to mess up as a player and you'll always have enough anyway - systems like that should just be removed altogether.
It's the equivalent of ammo counting in games that never actually make ammo a scarcity.

 

[motherfucker]

a class that's worse at everything else but mandatory because of barriers that can't be bypassed any other way

Like rogues/thieves in every party-based RPG ever?

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

The more restrictions placed on spellcasting, the more powerful and grand it needs to be. That said, I haven't seen components implemented in a way that was anything but yet another tax on mages.

Another one of those things that conceptually could be good, but has never once been successful. The entire system would have to be built around reagents, rather than tacked on. Pass.

 

[Cryomancer]

never actually make ammo a scarcity.

FNV did ammo right in RPG's. .50 BMG high explosive is extremely powerful but expensive, vendors has in a very limited quantity and weights a lot(ammo weights matters in HC)

 

[deuxhero]

a class that's worse at everything else but mandatory because of barriers that can't be bypassed any other way

Like rogues/thieves in every party-based RPG ever?

Yes. I was specifically indicating toward early D&D Thieves, which really were just worse fighters with some out of combat skills rather than the unique class it has morphed into over the years (For the record: Content shouldn't be hard locked to needing a "rogue", though it's fine if it needs some kind of sneaky class and they're varying degrees of good at sneaky stuff compared to other areas).

 

[Darth Canoli]

In a low magic settings, an all reagent system might be interesting, as long as there is a specific tab for reagents and it doesn't take any space in the inventory.

You could couple this with a mana system, like in Might & Magic or Wizardry (global mana of per school mana) and mages would have to use weapons but would be able to cast some spells from time to time, saving the rarer reagents for the right encounter.

But if reagents are going to be common, I'd rather not be bothered with it, in fact, I'd probably not play the damn thing if it forces me to manage some garbage just to do the same thing other games do without it.

 

[General Disarray]

What crpgs use reagents beside ultima?

Outward, but it is more of a action rpg survival hybrid. But it works very well there. You need to pick ingredients and make the reagents in a mobile meth lab. Can also buy them. Has more expensive reagents as well. Also magic that don't require reagents like rune magic, but it required you to hold a book in your offhand. Also wind magic that relies on unlocking a totem on each map

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

a class that's worse at everything else but mandatory because of barriers that can't be bypassed any other way

Like rogues/thieves in every party-based RPG ever?

Yes. I was specifically indicating toward early D&D Thieves, which really were just worse fighters with some out of combat skills rather than the unique class it has morphed into over the years (For the record: Content shouldn't be hard locked to needing a "rogue", though it's fine if it needs some kind of sneaky class and they're varying degrees of good at sneaky stuff compared to other areas).

In early D&D you were mostly raiding tombs and dungeons and shit, and you got XP for finding treasure. Fighting prowess wasn't the main purpose of the thief, but you'd miss out on a lot of XP without one.

As it's gotten more about combat, the thief increasingly just didn't fit properly.

 

[motherfucker]

a class that's worse at everything else but mandatory because of barriers that can't be bypassed any other way

Like rogues/thieves in every party-based RPG ever?

Yes. I was specifically indicating toward early D&D Thieves, which really were just worse fighters with some out of combat skills rather than the unique class it has morphed into over the years (For the record: Content shouldn't be hard locked to needing a "rogue", though it's fine if it needs some kind of sneaky class and they're varying degrees of good at sneaky stuff compared to other areas).

In early D&D you were mostly raiding tombs and dungeons and shit, and you got XP for finding treasure. Fighting prowess wasn't the main purpose of the thief, but you'd miss out on a lot of XP without one.

As it's gotten more about combat, the thief increasingly just didn't fit properly.

once again oddity XP proves superior

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

you misspelled "elves" - 1,5m, 40kg "males". no wonder they are so popular among orkz.

Most male elves are gay, but what is the problem? It makes female elves more available for humans. And that is the reason which makes half elves outnumber pure elves 10/1 in most D&D settings.

It's quite odd that male elves have this problem. What went wrong I wonder? The elves must be turnip deficient which causes these problems in medium sized races. A turnip rich diet would fix these problems.

 

[Reinhardt]

turnip

only helps to grow nose

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

turnip

only helps to grow nose

Cool it with the antinanatic remarks.