About reagents for spellcasting. Which system do you prefer?

[Cryomancer]

• Reagents never required - No need to explain.
• Some spells requiring reagents (pfkm) - Stoneskin, reanimate dead circle of death and other spells which offers greater benefits compared to spells of the same tier often require reagents
• Low level spells requiring no reagents but high level spells requiring reagents(sota) - In shroud of the avatar, low level spells require no reagent, but all high level spells require reagents. An water mage can cast ice arrow with no problem, but if he wanna cast a healing rain which also damages undead(quite resistant vs cold), he needs multiple reagents.
• All spells requiring reagents is like U7. With no reagents, there are no spells to cast.

And the last option is for the inumerous guys who hate magery but appears in every single threat that I make.

 

[Lambach]

If you strike the correct balance between reagents being rare enough to limit the usage of certain powerful spells but not so rare that you're too afraid of using the Spell because you think you might need it later (and end up almost never using it at all because of this), then option number 2.

If we're using the Pathfinder games as an example, I can't say they do a very good job there, most reagents are easily available enough that they don't really add a layer of resource management - you can buy plenty from merchants and they're fairly cheap. Diamonds are the only reagent that fits the above criteria because even they're sold by merchants, they'll be fairly to expensive to buy until you get very rich later in the game. That forces you to keep your party members alive as much as possible, instead of regularly letting 3-4 die because they can just get Resurrected later. Two Diamonds AKA 10k gold per Resurrect is not a negligible expense during mid-game and that limitation adds something meaningful to gameplay (until late game anyway where 10k is pocket change).

 

[deuxhero]

Reagents were a dumb joke that went too far, like Half-Orcs or a class that's worse at everything else but mandatory because of barriers that can't be bypassed any other way. Fireball is black powder, lightning bolt is static electricity, scrying is a pre-LCD TV. It's either pointless, or tedium like most crafting in games not centered on crafting.

Only way to do them that's good design is limiting otherwise powerful spells. Resurrection is a good example because it's supposed to discourage players from having to use it.

 

[Harthwain]

I could see reagents being used for rituals (where they make sense), but not for spells. If you want to limit spells you better come up with some other way.

 

[ItsChon]

I agree with the idea that reagents should be reserved for rituals and alchemy. I've always like the Vancian magic system, though I wish a mage was given a total amount of spell points, with a spells level being how many points it consumes. So someone can use all there spell points to cast a bunch of "level one" spells, or use them to cast a handful of high level spells. I don't see how a mage could run out of first level spells but still cast a bunch of high level ones.

 

[gurugeorge]

I think it's good that higher level, truly reality-altering spells should require some cost in terms of reagents, and the more the more powerful they are obvs. They should also cost more in terms of concentration requirements. But that would require a lot of testing, iteration and Q&A to get right, as it's a fine line between annoyance and feeling like a good gameplay cost.

As someone said above, the idea was set up well in Pathfinder mechanically (fiddly enough that they're a separate resource you have to buy, but not so fiddly that you have to take any extra steps while spellcasting to use them), but not implemented quite as well as it could have been economically - apart from diamonds there was never truly any resource cost to them. Not something you had to juggle with during a shopping expedition, for example.

The resource cost for reagents should be roughly equivalent to how many +2 arrows or fire arrows or ice arrows you feel justified in buying before an expedition, that sort of general feel of cost.

 

[Nano]

Yes to reagents for certain spells of all levels. It makes magic feel more magical.

As a suggestion: maybe mages could lose the need for them for lower-circle spells as they level up. No need for reagents for first-circle spells at level 6, second-circle spells at level 9, and so on.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Having to mix reagents before casting any spell (Ultima IV).

 

[laclongquan]

Free spells alway annoy me. And spells without reagent or sleep cost is free.

Can you think of a RPG where people shoot at targets without care about ammo? Limitless ammo is piss idea. Same with free spells~

 

[Fowyr]

I always liked reagents in my CRPGs. But it should be something more than another money drain. In addition (or instead) of just buying, there sould be ways to collect them yourself. Elviras, for example, had very good magic systems.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

I think reagents should be limited to alchemy. Push come to shove, i can see them being used in necromancy, but no other kind of magic.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Reagents are spell ammo that you have to buy. Mana is spell ammo that (usually) comes back on its own. It can work either way really.

However, I am wary of anything that means I have to do busywork in my video games. And having to go to the store every X amount of fights to buy a specific list of items so I can use my spells sounds like a lot of busywork. Pressing rest and being told 8 hours passed isn't busywork like that.

Now, in a mmorpg, to me, they make a bit more sense, as they can be very useful to stimulate a player to player economy. Oh this super useful level 1 spells uses these cheap reagents, but do you really want to go kill a bunch of level 1 rats all the time? No, but those level 1 players are doing it anyway, might as well buy from them.

 

[mondblut]

Magic systems is one of the few things Ultima did right.

Having expensive reagents for a select few spells that just so accidentally happen to be 100 more useful and used than the rest of the spells on the same tier is a lame copout. Hurr-durr, we know that past level 3, identify is the only 1st level spell you gonna cast ever again, so we put additional price tag on it, muh balinse!

 

[Poseidon00]

Reagents are the great equalizer. Anyone who complains about the imbalance of power between casters and non-casters needs to try PnP with reagents required. Suddenly everyone is vary wary of the pickpocketing skill and other ways to kneecap a mage without fighting him. Telekinesis also works.

If a group understands the game I will typically always run with reagents. If not I let that and other things slide until they git gud.

 

[Saerain]

Whatever, it depends on the setting. I don't find any particular implementation inherently based or cringe.

 

[Denim Destroyer]

One thing which has not been touched upon is how reagents can incentivize world exploration. The Ultima games have reagents placed in certain parts of the world because that is where they would more likely to be found if it was a realistic setting. Blood moss in the ancient battlefield, nightshade in forests/swamps, pearl near the sea, etc. This type of "inconvenience" is great for player immersion.

 

[Artyoan]

I like the thought of it for immersion but the mechanical or maintenance aspect of it is usually either trivial or a nuisance with no real depth of value. Similar to requiring basic arrows for a bow when you can carry hundreds of them and they're dirt cheap. Makes sense but the impact is negligible.

Makes more sense to have reagents enhance the spell, not to be required to cast the base spell.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

I feel like if you're going to make the player use reagents, there should be a bit to it, like in the Elvira games, where you get them for someone else, or in the World of Legend games, where you have to work out how to cast those spells. Just having it be a set cost or something like that feels like a cheap way of making sure the player always has something to spend money on.

 

[Cryomancer]

Similar to requiring basic arrows for a bow when you can carry hundreds of them and they're dirt cheap. Makes sense but the impact is negligible.

Yep. But look how FNV deals with ammo.

In HC, ammo weights, are available in limited amount per vendor and you can use explosive, armor piercing, hollow point, for 12 gauge, flechette, coin shot, slugs, buckshot(...) producing different damage output.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Turnips should be required for spellcasting like they were in the good old days.

 

[KateMicucci]

In Ultima vii it was pretty much only the main character (and one optional party member) who needed the reagents so getting and managing them wasnt as annoying as it could be.

In a game with one wizard character where the UI made reagaent management easy it could be ok. But inventory managment is the worst part of rpgs and nobody wants to stare at a chest menu wondering if 2 pounds of mandrake root is too little or too much.

 

[KateMicucci]

Can you think of a RPG where people shoot at targets without care about ammo?

Yes.

 

[laclongquan]

Similar to requiring basic arrows for a bow when you can carry hundreds of them and they're dirt cheap. Makes sense but the impact is negligible.

Yep. But look how FNV deals with ammo.

In HC, ammo weights, are available in limited amount per vendor and you can use explosive, armor piercing, hollow point, for 12 gauge, flechette, coin shot, slugs, buckshot(...) producing different damage output.

Icewind Dale2 also prove that various type of magical ammo only of use when you meet overabundance of hard target. In easy diff, you dont actually need that many. In HoF mode, you are going to shoot them like machinegun (if you have archer skill for that). My DG Rogue Fighter who is specialized in bow can shoot dry her inventory full of magical arrows until only the quivers are left~

 

[Cryomancer]

equalizer

This I strongly disagree. IMO just like equality cultism is destroying IRL world, balance cultism is destroying RPG's fictional worlds. Reagents can bring risk/reward, be a money sink, make certain spells expensive to cast among other things. But no edition is better ballanced than 4E and this is the worst edition by far.

Turnips should be required for spellcasting like they were in the good old days.

Mainly for illusion/enchantment spells

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Turnips should be required for spellcasting like they were in the good old days.

Mainly for illusion/enchantment spells

For all spells. It breaks the lore any spells to be casted without turnips. The first thing a magic user needs is a turnip rich diet and a pouch full of dried turnips sold exclusively by Turnipco™ (the leading wholesaler in turnips and turnip accessories) to enable them to use magic in tricky situations. Then he needs some of the specialized varieties of turnips also found at Turnipco™ in order to make full use of his magical prowess.