A Thought on PST

[WouldBeCreator]

fighting in the Blood War was not as bad since its not some "punishment" and certainly not "eternal".

So when TNO says he goes to his punishment and Grace utters the haunting line that time is not his enemy, eternity is, they're both just wrong?

 

[bryce777]

Before you get that flashback, you talk to the one merc from the bloodwar, and he implies betraying his men to get out of the bloodwar, as well.

 

[Jora]

In my opinion the beuty of the ending is on one hand the joy I feel when TNO decides to stop running, briefly nods to his mace and accepts his fate, and on the other hand the unfairness of the eternal punishment (that's what I like to think) because TNO has changed his nature and regretted so much already.

 

[kingcomrade]

I was under the impression that Morte was the one who convinced TNO to find Ravel and make himself immortal to avoid fighting in the Blood War, and the Practical One retrieved Morte because he knew he would be loyal, or something like that.

 

[Jora]

Where do you get him going there with the purpose of finding her, though?

In that flashback during the lecture TNO clearly meets Ravel the first time. We know that he knew that the greatest of the night hags could seperate him from his mortality, and that the hags didn't quite live in Mount Celestia, so it could be assumed that going to the war was just a way to find her. It could be a reason for him to be there.

 

[bryce777]

fighting in the Blood War was not as bad since its not some "punishment" and certainly not "eternal".

So when TNO says he goes to his punishment and Grace utters the haunting line that time is not his enemy, eternity is, they're both just wrong?

Well, like I said before, I think part of the problem is the game itself is not entirely coherent. I mostly just think you are misinterpreting what is meant by punishment, though. It makes no sense that he was already dead before.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

Before you get that flashback, you talk to the one merc from the bloodwar, and he implies betraying his men to get out of the bloodwar, as well.

Right. *Ghysis* sacrificed two of *his* comrades to the Pillar to get out. It's a foreshadowing of when you face the Pillar and works very effectively. But that's clearly not the only way to get out. Ebb, for example, "did an all too-long tour in the Blood War," but there's no implication that he had to pike anyone to get out.

Baatezu contracts are tough, but not everyone who signs is consigned to fight forever. Ghysis says *most likely* that will happen, suggesting that it sometimes doesn't. If Ghysis's escape were really so unheard of, don't you think more people would make a big deal out of it? Ghysis fairly nonchalantly says that it looks like TNO had been in the Blood War, and that he'd know that he doesn't want to go back. That makes pretty clear that people come and go -- just like Ebb did.

Ghysis is a little unclear on it, though, because he also says that if you sign on, you'll never get out -- certainly not from the Baatezu -- although he suggests that that sometimes happens if you're not a really bad person. But then Ghysis's own story says exactly the opposite: "Well, my tour was nearly done, then… in fact, I was ta leave after that battle. Th’ trouble was, had I died there, I would ‘ave been theirs forever — too much blackness, too much evil in my ‘eart."

He was a bad man, and yet his tour was "nearly done." So, I really don't know.

 

[bryce777]

That's when you die you would stay on as a nippleblob or whatever.

 

[Jora]

“But why — I have so many questions that YOU can answer. Why did we become immortal? Why?”
“Because if we die, truly die…” The incarnation looked up at me, and his eyes were like steel. “Death’s kingdom will not be paradise, not for us. If you spoke to these others that were here, know that a fraction of the evil of their lives is but a drop of water compared to the evil of mine. That life, that one life, even without the thousands of others, has given a seat in the Lower Planes for eternity.”
“But you seem so much… calmer. More well-intentioned.”
“I became that way, yes. Because for me…” His voice took on a strange echo. “It is regret that may change the nature of a man.” He sighed. “But it was too late. I was already damned.”
“I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon — to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal.”

:!:

As I held the sphere up this time and examined it, I felt the memories of the first of my incarnations stirring within me, but it was not an insistent or driving force — it was calm, like the thoughts of a man walking across a great distance to speak to a friend he hadn’t seen in ages. As I felt his presence in my mind, I saw the sphere in a different light — not as ugly, or hideous, but as something precious, like a newborn child — the sphere was the repository of my last moments, before I met Ravel on the Gray Waste and asked the impossible of her.

This, along with the lecture hall memory, supports my theory of TNO going to the war to find Ravel.

 

[Drakron]

So when TNO says he goes to his punishment and Grace utters the haunting line that time is not his enemy, eternity is, they're both just wrong?

Nothing is eternal ... gods die, worlds die, planes die.

They are both wrong because TNO will eventually end up being released from the Blood War (or it would have ended long ago, after all the Tanar'i dont make contracts and even if they have huge numbers the side with "unkillable troops" would have won, so people under contract will eventually be released ... even if they are simply killed in the fighting).

My impression is contracts are for limited time, first because they are used as shock troops and so they end up bead pretty fast (so there is no reason to make the contract "for eternity", it makes it more attractive when its "for 10 years" ... since they are unlikely to survive the first one) and second because they really ARE making a tension on the planes since souls get send to the plane of their aligment, there are likely limitations since at some point the nature of the planes will take effect and overrule the contract ... my guess is contracts durations are based on what they are given in return in order to preserve the nature of the planes.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

The game explicitly says that if you die under contract, you come back as a petitioner-slave to the Baatezu. Sorry.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

What blind archer?

 

[bryce777]

The game explicitly says that if you die under contract, you come back as a petitioner-slave to the Baatezu. Sorry.

No, it says that if you are evil when you die there then you will, and that avoiding evil while being there is almost impossible....

 

[roguefrog]

What blind archer?

The blind archer joined the Practical Incarnations "party" on the first Fortress of Sorrows Assault, along with Morte, Dak'kon, and Deionarra. (Both the Blider Archer and Deionarra kick the bucket) You can speak to the blind archer as he is one of the zombies on the first floor of the mortuary. He gives you his heart which gives bonus to dex IIRC.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

The game explicitly says that if you die under contract, you come back as a petitioner-slave to the Baatezu. Sorry.

No, it says that if you are evil when you die there then you will, and that avoiding evil while being there is almost impossible....

“Chances are when ye sign up, they peel ye so yer tour o’ duty is ‘til time itself grinds ta a ‘alt. Even death wouldn’t be a release, ‘cause then ye sink inta th’ Lower Planes an’ get dredged back up as somethin’ worse'n ye were before. Then they got their talons on ye fer all eternity.”

 

[Drakron]

Sorry but I dont understand psuedo ancient broken english ...

 

[Hamanu]

The game explicitly says that if you die under contract, you come back as a petitioner-slave to the Baatezu. Sorry.

I don't believe that the Baatezu can override the laws of the planes (law here meaning natural laws, ie gravity). If you die as a mortal you go to the Astral and lose your memories, then become a petitioner in whichever plane suits you best. This means it's possible you could end up in Baator. It's also possible though that you would end up serving the yugoloths or tanaari or even somewhere in arborea or celestia (though this is pretty unlikely) depending on your beliefs. It's important to remember that your alignment isn't primarily determined by your actions, but by your motivations. If you murder a child because it's diseased and want to protect a village, then you're probably lawful good. The act may be bad, but the motivations (arguably) good.

Ghysis knew that he would stay in Baator if he died because he knew that's where his beliefs would send him, not becuase of some Ba'atezu contract. Still it's likely that unless something drastic changes Ghysis will still end up as a petitioner there. He'd never know about it though.

 

[bryce777]

The game explicitly says that if you die under contract, you come back as a petitioner-slave to the Baatezu. Sorry.

No, it says that if you are evil when you die there then you will, and that avoiding evil while being there is almost impossible....

“Chances are when ye sign up, they peel ye so yer tour o’ duty is ‘til time itself grinds ta a ‘alt. Even death wouldn’t be a release, ‘cause then ye sink inta th’ Lower Planes an’ get dredged back up as somethin’ worse'n ye were before. Then they got their talons on ye fer all eternity.”

Chances are is NOT is. Obviously. Their contracts may be tough but they are not absolutely inescapable....

 

[Antagonist]

Well, I stumbled across some evidences that there were actually more than one ending planned for Torment which I guess should made WouldBeCreator happy. The recent discussions here have evoked my desire to play Torment again so I made a pit stop at Platter's Torment website to check whether he released a new version of his excellent fixpack. Luck seems to be with me because Platter shamelessly :twisted: ripped the official soundtrack and uploaded it for the common rabble (Thanks, Platter). While eagerly downloading this little treasure before some bigwig forces to take it down I encountered 2 unused tracks which are called Good Ending and Neutral Ending. Now I know that the music may have been written before the final script was nailed and these 2 pieces of soundtrack became obselete as a result but to me it looks like they had to axe the alternative endings, probably due to time issues.

MCA hinted in past interviews that Torment had to be rushed at the end of its development cycle as is evidenced by the later parts of the game which sadly aren't as intricate as Sigil (but still good nontheless) and quests like restoring the Vault of the Ninth World (?) which many people ingame make reference to but never take place.

EDIT:

Link to Platter's Soundtrack page