A Thought on PST

[WouldBeCreator]

If I remember only the original TNO claims this to be the case, but I never interpreted that to be a matter-of-fact answer.

Negative, the merged TNO at the end says repeatedly, as I've quoted above several times, that he is being punished / going to his place of punishment for crimes.

The moment TNO embraces or kills his mortality is the exact moment he would be found and taken to the bloodwars. TNO can't just run off to do daring heroisms or hide out in the fortress, as the planes will suck him into the bloodwars the moment it finds him - that moment having been the part where you've embraced or killed your mortality. The only other way to have an "evil" or "good" ending would be if TNO backed out of ever entering the portal to the fortress of regrets, which would completely defeat the purpose of the entire game in the first place.

It really depends on how you think the process works. FWIW, there used to be heated and angry debate on why TNO went straight down, since he was still alive. (Note that people here repeatedly have said he's still alive, etc.) Incarnations throughout the game say "when we die, the afterlife will not be pleasant for us." But TNO doesn't die at the end. He gains the capacity to die at some point in the future.

We're accustomed now to the ending so we assume that's the way it should work, but either Maldanado or Avellone refered to his being swept down immediately to a "ninja powder disappearing act" -- i.e., a deus ex machina move.

grammer

grammar

@ others: I'm aware of other endings. They're hardly real alternatives, though.

The reason I came to repost here was that last night it struck me that there really ought to be at least one other ending: agreeing with TTO to go back and continue your miserable existence. That ending is foreshadowed by Morte's tale to Yves. After all, maybe TNO can neither live with his regrets (i.e., with knowing what he knows) or with going to the Blood War. This provides a way out.

And if they were too lazy to do any new animation, they already have the "you killed the necessary people" ending.

 

[HotSnack]

Negative, the merged TNO at the end says repeatedly, as I've quoted above several times, that he is being punished / going to his place of punishment for crimes.

Well isn't that more or less the same thing? The merged TNO would have been most likely dominated by the original TNO's conscious, who himself is the most aware of his actions and that of his alternate incarnations, and feels that his final destination is a fitting place for what he has been. If however, it was possible in the game to be a different kind of merged TNO (like an evil incarnate who still manipulates who companions after the merge), then I will humbly stfu about this point right now.

It really depends on how you think the process works. FWIW, there used to be heated and angry debate on why TNO went straight down, since he was still alive. (Note that people here repeatedly have said he's still alive, etc.) Incarnations throughout the game say "when we die, the afterlife will not be pleasant for us." But TNO doesn't die at the end. He gains the capacity to die at some point in the future.

We're accustomed now to the ending so we assume that's the way it should work, but either Maldanado or Avellone refered to his being swept down immediately to a "ninja powder disappearing act" -- i.e., a deus ex machina move..

I disagree, I believed TNO already "died" the moment Ravel slew him to test if it worked, his death however is only complete when he regains or destroys the mortal aspect of himself. But yeah, I do agree that the ending is a "one size fits all" thing, his expression at the end is quite ambiguous

The reason I came to repost here was that last night it struck me that there really ought to be at least one other ending: agreeing with TTO to go back and continue your miserable existence. That ending is foreshadowed by Morte's tale to Yves. After all, maybe TNO can neither live with his regrets (i.e., with knowing what he knows) or with going to the Blood War. This provides a way out.

Again, I don’t think the ending will really work, seeing as how TNO no longer forgets, the only “way out” TNO could possibly have is in submitting to TTO confining him to the fortress for all eternity.

grammar

Well, at least the mistake was not completely ironic. :D

 

[WouldBeCreator]

But what is the evidence for there having been a contract? There's a flashback to fighting in the Blood War, there's Fhjull's mention that he thinks he might recognize you, the two baatezu in the bar who think they might recognize you, and the theme of contracting and not being able to get out of contracts that runs through the game. That's fairly weak circumstantial evidence, methinks, since the fact he already fought in the Blood War suggests that his contract was not an after-death one.

On the other side is repeated text from the original incarnation that it was *many* crimes, a *life* of sin, etc., for which he is being *punished*. If you've read Avellone's many clarifications of game plot issues, usually the simplest answer is the right one -- for example, Deionarra's prophecy. The idea that the original incarnation is lying or mistaken or unclear and that the vague hints in the game are the real answer just seems, eh, lame to me.

I obviously can't prove it to you -- just like you can't prove to me that TNO's companions weren't all just figments of his imagination, or that TTO wasn't really Trias in disguise, or that Grace isn't Annah's mother, or that Morte isn't the reanimated skull of one of TNO's prior incarnations. It's impossible to *prove* anything here. I just don't see much evidence on your side of things.

Again, I don’t think the ending will really work, seeing as how TNO no longer forgets, the only “way out” TNO could possibly have is in submitting to TTO confining him to the fortress for all eternity.

Well, of course the fact that TNO no longer forgets could always be done away with -- there was just another thread running here asking why TNO isn't forgetting when he dies, with people offering a raft of suggestions, which suggests that most players ignored TNO's statement that he "no longer forgets" and assumed that he just wasn't dying the kind of death that makes him forget. Hell, all it would take is for TTO to say, "YOU WILL STILL FORGET IF YOU DIE HERE, AT MY HANDS. WHATEVER ELSE CHANGES, THAT WILL ALWAYS BE SO."

I mean, the fact that TNO no longer forgets struck me as a bug, not a feature, of the game's story.

 

[bryce777]

1. The nameless one can't go on, because he is becoming basically destroyed as time goes on. Eventually nothing will be left.

2. If he were dead already, the whole becoming immortal thing would be a little ludicrous, don't you think? It is as obvious as the nose on your face to me that a) he was a mercenary in the blood wars b) he sacrificed his men at some point to give himself a chance to survive, and probably did a lot of evil things in the blood wars as well.

3. The first incarnation is the one who approached ravel, but he later came to regret it. Which is one of the big underlying points of the whole game - they talk about regret endlessly. It's very obvious when you see the scene with morte from back when that he was not good-aligned then.

4. The punishment he is worried about has not already begun; it is the punishment he will receive after death. Which, once he is mortal WILL come eventually. Also, he is CURRENTLY being tormented. His immortality is a punishment unto its own. Just look at his incarnations....

 

[Antagonist]

1. The nameless one can't go on, because he is becoming basically destroyed as time goes on. Eventually nothing will be left.

And yet he doesn't forget himself after each death anymore which contradicts Deionarra. It might be just a wrong assesment on her part. As I said in another thread it was predicted that TNO would stop losing his memories at one point (crypt wall inscriptions).

3. The first incarnation is the one who approached ravel, but he later came to regret it. Which is one of the big underlying points of the whole game - they talk about regret endlessly. It's very obvious when you see the scene with morte from back when that he was not good-aligned then.

Negative. Ravel killed him right after she stripped his mortality to test things out so unless he retained self-awareness in some dark corner of TNO's mind he never had the chance to regret it. Plus, Morte obviously met the practical incarnation at the pillar of skulls which was clearly not the first one.

4. The punishment he is worried about has not already begun; it is the punishment he will receive after death. Which, once he is mortal WILL come eventually. Also, he is CURRENTLY being tormented. His immortality is a punishment unto its own. Just look at his incarnations....

As was mentioned before he doesn't lose his memories anymore so he is in a very comfortable position to stay immortal.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

As I said in another thread it was predicted that TNO would stop losing his memories at one point (crypt wall inscriptions).

Here are the inscriptions:

At last I have you. Never again will you torment me, for no mortal man can escape these walls. Seek the keys and embrace death with each that you find. Only then shall you be free.

***

Fear names. Names have power in identity. Others can use names as weapons. Names are a hook that can be used to track you across the planes. Remain nameless, and you shall be safe. I am the Nameless One.

***

So they said — You have been divided. You are one of many men. You bear many names, and each has left their scars on your flesh.
lost one… immortal one… incarnation'S end… man of A thousand deaths… the one doomed to life… restless one… one of many… the one whom life holds prisoner… the bringer of shadows… the wounded one… misery-bringer… yemeth…
I grow weary.

***

There is nothing that can be done. Memories are gone, perhaps never to return. With every death I lose a part of me.
How can one be immortal and still die?
He told me that my mind is weakening with every death. I asked him how this could be, but he could not answer. He was of no use. I butchered him so that no other incarnation would ever benefit from his uselessness.

***

I have lost lifetimes because of my killer. I cannot deceive him, so I must kill him. I tried to throw him off the scent. I left false bodies, tailored in such a way to placate him. I roamed the most outer planes, hoping to use distance as a shield. I built this tomb filled with traps to try and kill the killer. I hid.
All I bought was time. The attacks inevitably begin again, with more fury than before. Deceptions are useless. Somehow, the killer always knows that I live. And no matter where on the planes I hide, he finds me… eventually.

***

I suspect that we will continue to die and be reborn until we finally get our life right. I do not know what we have to do to bring that about, though. And therein lies the frustration.
Is it some sort of karmic cycle? As I gather, some incarnations have committed terrible crimes but also there have been a number of incarnations where we have labored to do nothing but good. Are these incarnations intended as punishment? I don’t know. And that is the only real truth I can offer in these carvings: I do not know.
At what point does the I get separated from the we? At what point am I freed of the shackles of the actions of these other incarnations? At what point am I allowed to be me, without the weight of these past lives?

***

It is extremely important to record your journeys so that you might learn from them. The greater need, however, is that the sources of information you use to uncover this mystery need to be protected when they are found. If key figures, documents or oracles are somehow removed, either by death or destruction, then you will never know who or what you are or how you came to be this way.

***

I know you feel like you've been drinking a few kegs of Styx wash, but you need to center yourself. Among your possessions is a journal that'll shed some light on the dark of the matter. pharod can fill you in on the rest of the chant, if he’s not in the dead-book already.
Don’t lose the journal or we'll be up the Styx again. And whatever you do, do not tell anyone who you are or what happens to you, or they'll put you on a quick pilgrimage to the crematorium. Do what I tell you: read the journal, then find Pharod.
Don’t trust the skull.

(Take from Rhyss Hess's transcription.)

I'm not sure which inscription you're talking about. This one? "I suspect that we will continue to die and be reborn until we finally get our life right." Doesn't quite say what you're looking for.

 

[Drakron]

That is pretty much the main failure of PS:T, you get a lot of freedom to act on your own (being good, evil, etc ...) but the ending is a classic "RPG" end of story were you really dont bave a choice but to follow a certain path ... you dont really get "well too bad, I am sticking to be immortal" were even Fallout given you the choice to join the Master (it ends bad but still there is the option).

 

[Jora]

1. The nameless one can't go on, because he is becoming basically destroyed as time goes on. Eventually nothing will be left.

I don't think there's anything to support this. The game does say, however, that the planes have been dying slowly since he became immortal.

2. If he were dead already, the whole becoming immortal thing would be a little ludicrous, don't you think? It is as obvious as the nose on your face to me that a) he was a mercenary in the blood wars b) he sacrificed his men at some point to give himself a chance to survive, and probably did a lot of evil things in the blood wars as well.

I think the blood war thing is only the tip of the iceberg. The original guy (the good incarnation) did something very, very horrible. It's just not said what.

 

[Jora]

That is pretty much the main failure of PS:T, you get a lot of freedom to act on your own (being good, evil, etc ...) but the ending is a classic "RPG" end of story were you really dont bave a choice but to follow a certain path ... you dont really get "well too bad, I am sticking to be immortal" were even Fallout given you the choice to join the Master (it ends bad but still there is the option).

You can remain immortal as the Silent King.

 

[bryce777]

I guess part of the question is where does the game not make sense.

For the first one, I have to believe that because they point to it many times, and the game makes no sense otherwise. The hints about not losing memory, I believe, have already come to pass - I do not think that he will ever get to a state where he never loses memory,t hough; in other places they imply the opposite.

On 3., I never thought that that was the practical incarnation, but perhaps I am misremembering. The practical one did not seem to have the crazy booming voice in other places and was very cold and snakelike. When tno dies, he does not always lose his memory so I suppose that is the real question regarding whether he is the first one. Obviously, somehow he must have had his memories and yet known about the memory loss, too, in order to make the sphere - which is sort of a contradiction. Or perhaps the sphere is a later incarnation, I forget, now - maybe it was the practical one. Either way, I suppose the regret could have come before he went to ravel, then, if that is not him who takes morte from the pillar.

4. Again, I would have to sort of assume it or at least that tno believes it or else the game stops making sense.

 

[Jora]

There is nothing that can be done. Memories are gone, perhaps never to return. With every death I lose a part of me.
How can one be immortal and still die?
He told me that my mind is weakening with every death. I asked him how this could be, but he could not answer. He was of no use. I butchered him so that no other incarnation would ever benefit from his uselessness.

This part can also be found in the paranoid incarnation's journal.

 

[Antagonist]

(Take from Rhyss Hess's transcription.)

I'm not sure which inscription you're talking about. This one? "I suspect that we will continue to die and be reborn until we finally get our life right." Doesn't quite say what you're looking for.

Looks like I was wrong about the inscriptions in the tomb but is has been a few years since I last played Torment so exuse me on any errors on my part. I think I do remember though a dialogue that stated something like "3 more deaths and you will be able to remember". The diary of the paranoid incarnation maybe ? I'd have replay the game unless you could provide me with a link to the transcription (becausee I'm to lazy to fire up google atm )

EDIT:

On 3., I never thought that that was the practical incarnation, but perhaps I am misremembering. The practical one did not seem to have the crazy booming voice in other places and was very cold and snakelike. When tno dies, he does not always lose his memory so I suppose that is the real question regarding whether he is the first one. Obviously, somehow he must have had his memories and yet known about the memory loss, too, in order to make the sphere - which is sort of a contradiction. Or perhaps the sphere is a later incarnation, I forget, now - maybe it was the practical one. Either way, I suppose the regret could have come before he went to ravel, then, if that is not him who takes morte from the pillar.

As far as I remember Morte believes he was responsible for TNO's *death* when he was still alive and that's why he ended up on the Pillar of Skulls. Since TNO seems to be alive and kicking during their meeting on Avernuns I assumed he was already immortal. I'm not sure though if it was really the practical incarnation who rescued him as he really behaved out of character when he tossed Morte around.

 

[Jora]

For the first one, I have to believe that because they point to it many times, and the game makes no sense otherwise. The hints about not losing memory, I believe, have already come to pass - I do not think that he will ever get to a state where he never loses memory,t hough; in other places they imply the opposite.

The paranoid incarnation was told that after a certain number of deaths an incarnation would be born that wouldn't lose any memories. That incarnation is you, the player. That's why you don't remember anything at the start of the game but never lose memories again

On 3., I never thought that that was the practical incarnation, but perhaps I am misremembering. The practical one did not seem to have the crazy booming voice in other places and was very cold and snakelike. When tno dies, he does not always lose his memory so I suppose that is the real question regarding whether he is the first one. Obviously, somehow he must have had his memories and yet known about the memory loss, too, in order to make the sphere - which is sort of a contradiction. Or perhaps the sphere is a later incarnation, I forget, now - maybe it was the practical one. Either way, I suppose the regret could have come before he went to ravel, then, if that is not him who takes morte from the pillar.

It's clearly said that the practical one imprisoned Vhailor, used Deionarra and freed Morte. He also knew that the memories of the original incarnation were in the sphere (a dead sensory stone) but never managed to find it. As far as we know, TNO the player character is the first one to use it after the good incarnation, who put his memories in it after he came to regret his crimes and before he met Ravel.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

Looks like I was wrong about the inscriptions in the tomb but is has been a few years since I last played Torment so exuse me on any errors on my part. I think I do remember though a dialogue that stated something like "3 more deaths and you will be able to remember". The diary of the paranoid incarnation maybe ? I'd have replay the game unless you could provide me with a link to the transcription (becausee I'm to lazy to fire up google atm )

Damn your laziness.

http://www.wischik.com/lu/senses/pst-book.html

I combed it pretty thoroughly when you first mentioned the three deaths, but couldn't find anything. There's of course the "enemies three" prophecy . . . .

 

[Drakron]

You can remain immortal as the Silent King.

That sould happen well before TNO is fully aware of its condiction, the choice that is made in that situation is much diferent that the one in the end of the game.

I can also kill TNO the moment I unlock the blade of the immortal and reason "hey, I beat the game" without going over Ravel maze.

Choices are only meanful when they are based on extsing information, its the same as "TNO remains immortal because he never goes to the Fortless of Regrets" ... like quiting the game at a point is a "option".

 

[WouldBeCreator]

The game definitively says that The Practical Incarnation is the one who frees Morte:

My vision swirled, and Morte’s cries ebbed, fading into his chattering rhythm. I had doubted Morte, but he had been the most faithful of all my companions. All those years with the ‘practical’ incarnation, and then the incarnations that followed, those that didn’t reject him outright must have always been suspicious. He could have left at any time, but he hadn’t.

It does suggest that Morte betrayed TNO when Morte was a man (and perhaps before TNO was immortal) -- i.e., that they'd crossed paths before -- but I can't find anything more concrete than that.

“Thing is, I don’t think me — or whoever I was — really ever had to see the consequences of all the lying and cheating I'd done, and when I saw you for the first time when I was trapped on the Pillar, somehow, I knew that you were the one I'd betrayed. Once… long ago.” Morte sighed. “And that’s all I know.”

 

[Jora]

This is the three more deaths prophecy:

There is NOTHING he can do. Memories are GONE, he says, NEVER to return. He says/lies and tells me this is what he told me! LIES! He says my mind is WEAKENING from every death! LIES! He sat there, BETRAYING my CONFIDENCE with every turn.
He says that only after THREE MORE DEATHS, THREE MORE LIVES will I gain the benefit of keeping my memories, but that I, MYSELF, I will DIE when I die. DIE! How can one be immortal and still DIE?! He could not answer, so he was of NO USE. I BUTCHERED him so that no other incarnation will ever benefit from his USELESSNESS.

Drakron: You're right.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

Wild. Dunno how I missed that last search through.

 

[Drakron]

The huge amount of text and paths makes quoting the game near impratical.

Its easy to miss tadbits, I missed the Blinded Archer 3 times until I discovered he was there.

That is why I dont quote the game, I dont have it installed and even if I did the sheer amount of text avaible makes it a not easy task to find what you are looking and still there is context.

 

[bryce777]

The huge amount of text and paths makes quoting the game near impratical.

Its easy to miss tadbits, I missed the Blinded Archer 3 times until I discovered he was there.

That is why I dont quote the game, I dont have it installed and even if I did the sheer amount of text avaible makes it a not easy task to find what you are looking and still there is context.

Also, the game doesn't say most things outright. If it did the game would suck. So it is hard to search for something to support anything you are saying, but there is so much hinting at tno being a mercenary in the bloodwar it has to be so....

 

[WouldBeCreator]

so much hinting at tno being a mercenary in the bloodwar it has to be so...

lol

 

[bryce777]

Have you even played the game? Jeebus.

 

[Jora]

From the novelization:

The lecture hall began to fade from view as terrible visions began to seep up from the base of my mind… visions of a place where seasons were like nothing I'd ever felt, or heard, or tried to shut out. A place where prayers went unheard, falling like stones to the earth… vein-colored lightning flashed across things that were once sky, but now boiled beneath my feet and screamed when I brushed against them…
I ran at the head of a large band of men, passing through dark canyons where the walls quivered moistly and beat like a heart, wearing only my own blood as clothing. At last I stood in a place where the ashen gray terrain slithered like a mass of snakes, coiling around my ankles and whispering my evil to the earth. I marched endlessly, silently, through this colorless land, where fatigue seemed to live and hunt me like a shade over the wastes, whipping me with despair…
In time, I and the ragged men who followed me came upon a hag sitting upon a mound of gigantic, writhing larvae, poking at one of the slime-covered things with a broken talon. I indicated for one of the men to run forward and speak with her; the hag’s grating voice carried to my ears…
“I would speak with him,” she said, then cackled. Her eyes gleamed as she pointed me out to the man. “The handsome one that leads your ragged column. I would speak with him.” …and that is all I could recall.

So one theory would be that TNO went to blood war in order to find Ravel and become immortal.

 

[Drakron]

I know that for some time TNO appers to have fought in the Blood War.

And that is why I am careful with my arguments, I do belive TNO objective in his quest for immortality was to escape that contract with the Beazebu but there are no direct references to that so when someone quotes the game trying to "prove me wrong" I do not offer quotes because I know that is simply my impression from playing the game.

My rejection of the jewish-christian "punishment" ideas come from the fact a universe that is displayed time and time again during the game that lacks that theme (there is no God, The Lady of Pain serves as a point to that) so I can never acepted it ... it would be playing a game were the ending reflects something completly diferent that I was playing from the start.

Yet I am sure I am going to see people quoting the game "proving me wrong" ... I like to think that when TNO destroyed his immortality he simply restored natural order ... fighting in the Blood War was not as bad since its not some "punishment" and certainly not "eternal".

 

[bryce777]

Where do you get him going there with the purpose of finding her, though?