Interview "A lot of faith, and a good head for risk": How two men risked their livelihoods for a new Torment

[ZagorTeNej]

Gaider already promised to make a BG2 spiritual successor, and it was Dragon Age.

He's done some good writing, but I feel like he's way too far into the Bioware pit now for there to be any hope. Dragon Age is a turd in every way, right down to the setting itself.

Sadly, this is true. I can sympathize with Infinitron's sentiment though. I'd like to think that Gayder didn't really want to squeeze out the shit that was Dragon Age and Mess Effect and that if he had his own kickstarter project he would like to make a genuine BG2 sequel, perhaps just switching the engine and spinning some shitty new story. Gayder never was much of a writer. Both Baldur's Gate games had truly awful story telling. The story only existed as the glue to hold together the best RtWP combat I've ever seen in a computer game. If he did do a solo kickstarter I would hope he would at least try to hire a real writer to write the dialogue. He's probably a half decent combat designer when he isn't going for twitch popamole, at least if BG2 was any sign.

Don't forget the Ascension mod he made for BG2 TOB, one of the best mods for any game I've ever seen, really amps up the challenge and makes The Five truly a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Volourn]

"Gaider already promised to make a BG2 spiritual successor, and it was Dragon Age."

Gaider doesn't have the power to promise anything at BIO. he's ane mployee. A lead writer/designer. That's it. He does what they tell him to do.


"Both Baldur's Gate games had truly awful story telling. The story only existed as the glue to hold together the best RtWP combat I've ever seen in a computer game. If he did do a solo kickstarter I would hope he would at least try to hire a real writer to write the dialogue. He's probably a half decent combat designer when he isn't going for twitch popamole, at least if BG2 was any sign."

Don't be stupid. his strength is writing because he doesn't design combat. You dumb nutz.

 

[Infinitron]

Sadly, Volourn is right.

Gaider isn't a designer, he's just a writer.

 

[jewboy]

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/credits

Design: David Gaider, Brent Knowles, Lukas Kristjanson, John Winski

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/baldurs-gate-ii-throne-of-bhaal/credits

Senior Designer: David Gaider

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4045/the_story_thing_biowares_david_.php

How much has your role of game writer changed in that time?
DG: I didn't start as a senior writer per se, although back when I started there were only 60 or 70 people working at BioWare in total. We've specialized a lot more since then. Back then, I did a lot more scripting of my own dialogue, and I was involved a lot more in the design side.
I still do have a lot of input on those things, because design at BioWare [is comprised of] technical designers and cinematic designers and level designers -- everybody is grouped into specialties, so it gives us more time to work on our own specialty. The role has changed a little bit.

There was another, older interview where I think he goes further into some of the design work he did on BG2. Okay, maybe Kevin Martens should get the most credit for BG2 combat, but it sounds like Gaider may have had a hand in it as well. Especially in ToB.

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

Fucking ToB, don't remind me of that mess...

Jesus fuck, what they could have done from an RP-ing perspective of a man approaching godhood so fast as his power unfolded, frightening/aweing those around him, it's implications on the world at large and his close companions could have been marvelous.

Focusing the combat on a few key players like Demogorgon and your rivals the 5, fleshing them out as characters, learning about their own paths to power instead of just 'shit i gotta kill' would have made it a fitting and memorable end to the trilogy...instead it was just wave after wave of inexplicably high level trash mobs with +3 weapons out of nowhere.

And Melissan, after Irenicus, surely felt flat and asspulley. Gaider's Ascension mod is kinda like a band-aid to that poor finale. It was a damn tough battle though, i'll give it that.

 

[Volourn]

"There was another, older interview where I think he goes further into some of the design work he did on BG2. Okay, maybe Kevin Martens should get the most credit for BG2 combat, but it sounds like Gaider may have had a hand in it as well. Especially in ToB."

Okay, he 'dabbled' in the non writing part of and 'had a lot of input' whatever that means. Still, first and foremost he's a writer.


"Fucking ToB, don't remind me of that mess..."

TOB is fukkin' awesome. One of the three best expansions EVAR. FUCK YEAH!!!


"And Melissan"

*SHUDDER* Worst aprt of TOB. One of BIO's 3 worst main villains EVAR. DISGUSTING!

 

[MicoSelva]

PST's main weakness is combat. Well, DA has (about equally) shit combat.

WHAT.

PST has much superior combat to the boredom-fest that is DA:O.
- Enemy variety is huge in PST, in DA:O, well, it's not.
- Party size is 6 compared to 4.
- Skill and spell selection is wider and much more interesting.
- IE RTWP mechanics >> MMO cooldowns mechanics with pause.

 

[Lancehead]

DAO's RTwP mechanics are less cumbersome than IE counterpart. While cooldowns are big bad things, they, along with animations, help with pausing much better than the fake animations of IE rounds.

 

[Mangoose]

They're both shit.

 

[Commissar Draco]

DAO's RTwP mechanics are less cumbersome than IE counterpart. While cooldowns are big bad things, they, along with animations, help with pausing much better than the fake animations of IE rounds.

Agree and besides in DAO my warrior had atleast some input... I felt like the tail to my spell casters in BGs.

 

[RK47]

hm. warrior input in DAO
toggle toggle toggle toggle.
ok. let's do.

 

[Black]

They're both shit.

Exactly.
But P:T has much less combat, so it has less shit.

 

[Commissar Draco]

hm. warrior input in DAO
toggle toggle toggle toggle.
ok. let's do.

Using shield as offensive weapons RK-47 Kun... how many games had this before DAO? Special (unrealistic as fuck but still) special thrusts and swings? Crowd control options? DAO is still shit Codex game of the year but has better combat than cDnDs.

 

[RK47]

hardly used shield, just went templar and max spell resist , two hand sword for stun immunity - swing swing swing swing.

 

[Lancehead]

hm. warrior input in DAO
toggle toggle toggle toggle.
ok. let's do.

Using shield as offensive weapons RK-47 Kun... how many games had this before DAO? Special (unrealistic as fuck but still) special thrusts and swings? Crowd control options? DAO is still shit Codex game of the year but has better combat than cDnDs.

DA:O is also the # 40 on the Codex's Top 50 cRPG list.

 

[abnaxus]

hm. warrior input in DAO
toggle toggle toggle toggle.
ok. let's do.

Using shield as offensive weapons RK-47 Kun... how many games had this before DAO? Special (unrealistic as fuck but still) special thrusts and swings? Crowd control options? DAO is still shit Codex game of the year but has better combat than cDnDs.

World of Warcraft

 

[jewboy]

Can anyone describe why they didn't like the combat in PS:T or what about it was so different from Icewind Dale? Presumably you aren't arguing that the combat in IWD also sucked?

I thought PS:T combat was pretty good. I intentionally would seek it out. I enjoyed it. I could only stomach a few of those generic monster things warping in out of nowhere at the start of DA:O before I uninstalled the game. I don't have any patience for that shit. I actually think Bethesda combat is far superior to Dragon Age. Admittedly the last Bethesda game I've actually played was Morrowind and I rage-quit even from that but it was far, far better than Dragon Age. I just couldn't take the fact that there was no real pausing system to prep spells and stuff. IIRC your only choice was to hit the esc key and exit to the menu. If there had been a mod to implement some kind of genuine pause I probably could have played it for a while despite shitty quests and shitty character models. I remember I upgraded my video card specifically for that game. I had liked Daggerfall and was anticipating an improvement instead of a decline. As shitty mainstream games go Bethesda > Biowhore.

I honestly cannot remember playing a game with worse combat than Dragon Age. I mean it was like they weren't even trying. At least they could have had more than one kind of monster.

Incidentally WoW had much better combat than Dragon Age IMO. The game is shit, but it was incomparably superior to the Dragon Age franchise.

 

[Infinitron]

Wait, what? Which game are you saying didn't have pause? Morrowind or Dragon Age? Because the latter most certainly did.

 

[jewboy]

Morrowind.

 

[Mangoose]

I'm not picking on PST as much as just hating all of RTwP trash, whether MMO like or not. Having retarded amounts of short cooldown abilities is really no better or worse than having virtually no in-combat choices outside of spell selection.

And it's not even about the viability of RTWP, but about how it is simply implemented incorrectly all the time. It is simply treated as a 1-to-1 conversion of PnP or otherwise turn-based rules, hoping that somehow adding 'real-time' will give it action and pizzazz.

No, the only time RTWP has been done right is when you look at RTSes, such as the Total War series or King Arthur, where you are given strategic and tactical choices to make in battle without needing to smash the pause key all the time. Yet developers can't look outside of the narrow view of RTWP = turn based with ACTION.

 

[Roguey]

I don't think I've ever really understood the meaning of the word blasphemy until now. How anyone who isn't a vegetable could stand more than a few moments of those boring, repetitive, endless waves of generic_fantasy_mole warping in out of nowhere for no apparent reason is beyond my understanding. Truly the only explanation I can think of us the loss of higher brain functions. Updated my journal.

a) Warriors and rogues actually had things to do.
b) It had five battles I enjoyed. Torment had two.

Don't be stupid. his strength is writing because he doesn't design combat. You dumb nutz.

I see this has already been addressed but here's a quote.
http://rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/features/profiles/dgaider.shtml

Please describe your position on the team and the main functions and responsibilities it entails
I'm a writer/designer in the design department. I spend the majority of my time writing and scripting dialogue, fleshing out plots for my areas of responsibility and learning scripting functions. Right now, the majority of my effort is spent going through my areas and sprucing them up… looking for bugs, making combat sequences more interesting and otherwise making sure that my part of the game is fun.

Gaider's areas were most of Athkatla and the Underdark city, which most people seem to like. Especially Athkatla (except Josh Sawyer who really hated it).

- Enemy variety is huge in PST, in DA:O, well, it's not.

What variety? You mean when it comes to character models? Because almost everything dies the same. Select all->attack.

- Party size is 6 compared to 4.

Meaningless because of the above.

- Skill and spell selection is wider and much more interesting.

You must be joking. Torment has no skills (except standard thief crap that DA:O also has) and spells are like a million buffs and a few token crowd control/damage spells. The best spellz are the awesome jrpg cinematics you get at level 9, which you can only use in the Fortress of Regrets.

- IE RTWP mechanics >> MMO cooldowns mechanics with pause.

Torment took IE mechanics and made them worse thanks to no enemy variety, no interesting mage battles (except for that one robot wizard), reduced weapon armor and class customization, and a lower FOV that made aoe spells a pain to use.

Can anyone describe why they didn't like the combat in PS:T or what about it was so different from Icewind Dale? Presumably you aren't arguing that the combat in IWD also sucked?

See above.

I could only stomach a few of those generic monster things warping in out of nowhere at the start of DA:O before I uninstalled the game.

This doesn't happen in DA:O so I believe you're lying.

I honestly cannot remember playing a game with worse combat than Dragon Age. I mean it was like they weren't even trying. At least they could have had more than one kind of monster.

You're not even trying.
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Resistances#Notable_Monster_Resistances.2FWeaknesses_Reference_Sheet
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Immunities#Damage_Immunity
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Creature_abilities

 

[Infinitron]

I see this has already been addressed but here's a quote.
http://rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/features/profiles/dgaider.shtml

Please describe your position on the team and the main functions and responsibilities it entails
I'm a writer/designer in the design department. I spend the majority of my time writing and scripting dialogue, fleshing out plots for my areas of responsibility and learning scripting functions. Right now, the majority of my effort is spent going through my areas and sprucing them up… looking for bugs, making combat sequences more interesting and otherwise making sure that my part of the game is fun.

Gaider's areas were most of Athkatla and the Underdark city, which most people seem to like. Especially Athkatla (except Josh Sawyer who really hated it).

Interesting, thanks for pointing this. Perhaps Gaider is a rare example of a writer who should be designing, rather than vice versa.

 

[jewboy]

Fighting the darkspawn after that first starting city is the most boring combat of any game I have every played in my life. Nothing else is even close. Not WoW. Not the original NWN campaign. I truly cannot think of anything. I never made it past the second city because I just couldn't stand the idea of ever fighting one of those things again. There was also some important part of the combat system, something besides the awful cooldowns I think, which I just couldn't take.

Arggh. What an absolutely awful game that was. I felt so betrayed too because I took Bioware at their word that it was going to be a BG2 sequel-in-spirit and had been eagerly awaiting the game for a long time. I had been living abroad in a country that didn't have any computer stores and I had to like ask people where I could find it. At one point I ended up getting ripped off buying a fake CD-R copy that wouldn't install. I never really got to play the game until I finally returned home and after I had practically memorized the manual, min-maxing in my head. I was so butthurt that I couldn't sit down for weeks. EAware had raped me. At least I didn't pay for my copy though. That would have been really hard to take. Luckily those days are gone.

What variety? You mean when it comes to character models? Because almost everything dies the same. Select all->attack.

And you enjoy that? DA:O did teach me how important enemy variety is to me. I always valued it but now I saw what it was to just battle a boring looking group of pixels ad nauseum. You can argue about how the character model doesn't make a difference, but it does to me. Part of the fun of playing D&D was always the Monster Manual and all of the interesting creatures you could encounter. As a tween I was completely obsessed with that manual. I don't know how EAware managed to just extract every bit of fun out of the RPG genre. In a way it's a remarkable achievement.

Torment took IE mechanics and made them worse thanks to no enemy variety, no interesting mage battles (except for that one robot wizard), reduced weapon armor and class customization, and a lower FOV that made aoe spells a pain to use.

No enemy variety? It had a lot more enemy variety than DA:O. At least as far as I got. DA:O only seemed to have one enemy type: darkspawn. I didn't see any mages in DA:O, probably due to the fact that I didn't have the masochistic level of patience necessary to get through all of those endless darkspawn fights. I searched for some mod that would just teleport me immedietaly to an area with more interesting combat and no darkspawn (I never wanted to fight one of those things again), but I could never find one. FOV and class customization compared to endless waves of boring, identical trash mobs? There is no comparison.

DA:O may be one of those rare games that is truly without a single redeeming feature. Well, maybe one. The character facial generator was an amazing piece of tech.

 

[MicoSelva]

a) Warriors and rogues actually had things to do.

click-cooldown-click-cooldown-click-cooldown
Clearly superior to PST combat.

b) It had five battles I enjoyed. Torment had two.

I did not enjoy a single combat in DA:O. Granted, I gave up on this game after playing through 1/5 of it, so maybe I missed something awesome later (are Deep Roads any fun?).

- Enemy variety is huge in PST, in DA:O, well, it's not.

What variety? You mean when it comes to character models? Because almost everything dies the same. Select all->attack.

Oh yes, because DA:O's enemies were so distinct from each other You had to adjust tactics to every one of them, instead of clicking an ability and waiting for the cooldown to end.
Oh, wait...
So, I'll take visual variety over no variety at all.

- Party size is 6 compared to 4.

Meaningless because of the above.

If you think party size is meaningless, there is no real point in discussing RPG combat with you, because you're just trolling [/captain obvious mode].

- Skill and spell selection is wider and much more interesting.

You must be joking. Torment has no skills (except standard thief crap that DA:O also has) and spells are like a million buffs and a few token crowd control/damage spells. The best spellz are the awesome jrpg cinematics you get at level 9, which you can only use in the Fortress of Regrets.

Morte has skills (or abilities, whatever). Fall-From-Grace has them too. Can't remember how it is with the others.
As for the spells, I'll take D&D derivative spell variety over generic DAO crap any day.

- IE RTWP mechanics >> MMO cooldowns mechanics with pause.

Torment took IE mechanics and made them worse thanks to no enemy variety, no interesting mage battles (except for that one robot wizard), reduced weapon armor and class customization, and a lower FOV that made aoe spells a pain to use.

Which is still better than DA:O, which had no enemy variety, no interesting battles at all (at least, as far as I've played), generic tiered weapons and armor and poor area control due to corridor-like level design.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

If you think party size is meaningless-

It's not the size but how you use it.