X-COM XCOM 2 + War of the Chosen Expansion Thread

[mastroego]

I can relate, but keep in mind that in LW the tactical layer keeps gaining depth as you go on.
WotC is good fun but it's a lot more gamey.

 

[ArchAngel]

After 5 long years I gave XCOM 1 a shot. First I started a Long War campaign but forgot how LOOOONG it actually is. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Then started a normal EW Ironman Classic. First mission with Thin Men. First alien turn - a soldier behind full cover dead. A soldier behind half-cover but in smoke dead. My medic behind full cover AND smoke hit for 5, unconscious. End of campaign. Womp womp.

Either Thin Men aim is intentionally absurd or something is fucky (tho I do seem to remember they were always pain in the ass).

All in all the game aged very well. The tactical layer is obviously vastly inferior to WotC but I actually like hunting for UFO more than watching a scanning timer go round and round. Still eminently playable, even without Long War (vanilla is terrible tho, EW was as big a deal for XCOM1 as was WotC for XCOM2).

EW was terrible. They nerfed snipers a bit and added another tactical layer with that human faction but also the gene powers and robots made the game 2x easier than EU. Just like how the expansion for Xcom 2 made the game 2x easier. It is a reason why I don't trust Firaxis expansions, they don't bother balancing the game at all for their expansions.

 

[Parabalus]

After 5 long years I gave XCOM 1 a shot. First I started a Long War campaign but forgot how LOOOONG it actually is. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Then started a normal EW Ironman Classic. First mission with Thin Men. First alien turn - a soldier behind full cover dead. A soldier behind half-cover but in smoke dead. My medic behind full cover AND smoke hit for 5, unconscious. End of campaign. Womp womp.

Either Thin Men aim is intentionally absurd or something is fucky (tho I do seem to remember they were always pain in the ass).

All in all the game aged very well. The tactical layer is obviously vastly inferior to WotC but I actually like hunting for UFO more than watching a scanning timer go round and round. Still eminently playable, even without Long War (vanilla is terrible tho, EW was as big a deal for XCOM1 as was WotC for XCOM2).

EW was terrible. They nerfed snipers a bit and added another tactical layer with that human faction but also the gene powers and robots made the game 2x easier than EU. Just like how the expansion for Xcom 2 made the game 2x easier. It is a reason why I don't trust Firaxis expansions, they don't bother balancing the game at all for their expansions.

I really don't think WotC made Xcom2 any easier. What makes you say that?

 

[cvv]

After 5 long years I gave XCOM 1 a shot. First I started a Long War campaign but forgot how LOOOONG it actually is. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Then started a normal EW Ironman Classic. First mission with Thin Men. First alien turn - a soldier behind full cover dead. A soldier behind half-cover but in smoke dead. My medic behind full cover AND smoke hit for 5, unconscious. End of campaign. Womp womp.

Either Thin Men aim is intentionally absurd or something is fucky (tho I do seem to remember they were always pain in the ass).

All in all the game aged very well. The tactical layer is obviously vastly inferior to WotC but I actually like hunting for UFO more than watching a scanning timer go round and round. Still eminently playable, even without Long War (vanilla is terrible tho, EW was as big a deal for XCOM1 as was WotC for XCOM2).

EW was terrible. They nerfed snipers a bit and added another tactical layer with that human faction but also the gene powers and robots made the game 2x easier than EU. Just like how the expansion for Xcom 2 made the game 2x easier. It is a reason why I don't trust Firaxis expansions, they don't bother balancing the game at all for their expansions.

I really don't think WotC made Xcom2 any easier. What makes you say that?

Autism.

 

[ArchAngel]

After 5 long years I gave XCOM 1 a shot. First I started a Long War campaign but forgot how LOOOONG it actually is. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Then started a normal EW Ironman Classic. First mission with Thin Men. First alien turn - a soldier behind full cover dead. A soldier behind half-cover but in smoke dead. My medic behind full cover AND smoke hit for 5, unconscious. End of campaign. Womp womp.

Either Thin Men aim is intentionally absurd or something is fucky (tho I do seem to remember they were always pain in the ass).

All in all the game aged very well. The tactical layer is obviously vastly inferior to WotC but I actually like hunting for UFO more than watching a scanning timer go round and round. Still eminently playable, even without Long War (vanilla is terrible tho, EW was as big a deal for XCOM1 as was WotC for XCOM2).

EW was terrible. They nerfed snipers a bit and added another tactical layer with that human faction but also the gene powers and robots made the game 2x easier than EU. Just like how the expansion for Xcom 2 made the game 2x easier. It is a reason why I don't trust Firaxis expansions, they don't bother balancing the game at all for their expansions.

I really don't think WotC made Xcom2 any easier. What makes you say that?

Personal play experience. I finished both Xcom 2 and WotC on Ironman Impossible/Legendary. WotC was hilariously easy. New OP classes make early game easier, and they and new OP items you get from enemy Heroes make end game even easier.
And the Lost were made so you can farm XP from them LOL. Firaxis are just a bunch of retards.

 

[Mazisky]

ArchAngel is an edgelord but he's right about the game being easier with Wotc.

They added way more tools to the Xcom side to deal with aliens and very little to none on the enemy side, not even more late game enemies as i would expect.

EDIT: they've just released now a sweet mod that addresses the game balance by increasing pod sizes as the game progresses, gotta try it.

 

[cvv]

ArchAngel is an edgelord but he's right about the game being easier with Wotc.

They added way more tools to the Xcom side to deal with aliens and very little to none on the enemy side, not even more late game enemies as i would expect.

The balance has always been that way - early game is pure praying to RNG, late game is roflstomp. That goes for most games, actually.

WotC makes the early game much harder - especially the Hunter can easily wipe out your basic bitch party single-handedly - but yeah, when you kill them off the new tools will remain and make the late game even more trivial.

 

[Parabalus]

ArchAngel is an edgelord but he's right about the game being easier with Wotc.

They added way more tools to the Xcom side to deal with aliens and very little to none on the enemy side, not even more late game enemies as i would expect.

The balance has always been that way - early game is pure praying to RNG, late game is roflstomp. That goes for most games, actually.

WotC makes the early game much harder - especially the Hunter can easily wipe out your basic bitch party single-handedly - but yeah, when you kill them off the new tools will remain and make the late game even more trivial.

Yeah, the lategame was always easy, but I found WotC threw more curveballs early.

What I did when I played is use ABA, then when it got too easy (Chosen dead) switch to ABA+ which is balanced for 8 people sqauds, seemed ok. Didn't find anything better anyway.

 

[ArchAngel]

ArchAngel is an edgelord but he's right about the game being easier with Wotc.

They added way more tools to the Xcom side to deal with aliens and very little to none on the enemy side, not even more late game enemies as i would expect.

The balance has always been that way - early game is pure praying to RNG, late game is roflstomp. That goes for most games, actually.

WotC makes the early game much harder - especially the Hunter can easily wipe out your basic bitch party single-handedly - but yeah, when you kill them off the new tools will remain and make the late game even more trivial.

Or maybe you are just bad. Early game was noticeably easier than in base Xcom 2 and that is without using OP weapons from DLC (like the frost bomb or free attack throwing axe). Both Templar and stealth Hero make early game almost trivial compared to before.
You could always get screwed over by bad RNG but you got way more control now than before.

EDIT: And I am just playing LW2 end game on Veteran difficulty and it is certainly not a roflstomp. Actually LW2 on Veteran is harder than base Xcom 2 on Legendary.

 

[cvv]

What I did when I played is use ABA, then when it got too easy (Chosen dead) switch to ABA+ which is balanced for 8 people sqauds, seemed ok. Didn't find anything better anyway.

You can also throw in the Biotroops and MOCX squads, both will make the game much more spicy.

I like both more than Bettter Advent, especially after how ABA fucked me over in one of the Chosen stronghold missions when the game spawned three primes at once. I don't think biotroops or MOCX can spawn in the Chosen arena or the final room.

 

[ArchAngel]

ArchAngel is an edgelord but he's right about the game being easier with Wotc.

They added way more tools to the Xcom side to deal with aliens and very little to none on the enemy side, not even more late game enemies as i would expect.

EDIT: they've just released now a sweet mod that addresses the game balance by increasing pod sizes as the game progresses, gotta try it.

Who released that mod? Do you have a link?

 

[Mazisky]

ArchAngel is an edgelord but he's right about the game being easier with Wotc.

They added way more tools to the Xcom side to deal with aliens and very little to none on the enemy side, not even more late game enemies as i would expect.

EDIT: they've just released now a sweet mod that addresses the game balance by increasing pod sizes as the game progresses, gotta try it.

Who released that mod? Do you have a link?

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1550396115&searchtext=


Also i suggest to modify enemy stats in ini files, so that Gatekeeper and Sectopod have double HP and damage:

this means that you cannot oneshot them and they can do lot of damage so they feel proper lategame enemies, you are forced to use wisely heavy cc

 

[Average Manatee]

After 5 long years I gave XCOM 1 a shot. First I started a Long War campaign but forgot how LOOOONG it actually is. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Then started a normal EW Ironman Classic. First mission with Thin Men. First alien turn - a soldier behind full cover dead. A soldier behind half-cover but in smoke dead. My medic behind full cover AND smoke hit for 5, unconscious. End of campaign. Womp womp.

Either Thin Men aim is intentionally absurd or something is fucky (tho I do seem to remember they were always pain in the ass).

All in all the game aged very well. The tactical layer is obviously vastly inferior to WotC but I actually like hunting for UFO more than watching a scanning timer go round and round. Still eminently playable, even without Long War (vanilla is terrible tho, EW was as big a deal for XCOM1 as was WotC for XCOM2).

Nothing is fucky, it's just that nuXCom combat snowballs to flawless victory or complete defeat incredibly quickly, often after a single dice role. 20% chance to be hit still means there's a 20% chance for every enemy shot to do some bullshit like kill a soldier and cause a panic chain that ends the mission with all of your best soldiers dead. Full cover or half + smoke is only 40 defense, that leaves Thin Men with 35% chance to hit. Hence why the game is all about murdering the enemy before they get a turn to fire.

Long War is actually a lot better, more soldiers with generally more HP and more ways to resist damage and pull back as long as you aren't flanked. Also cover is buffed (half cover significantly, becomes actually worth sitting in rather than running away sometimes). It's a shame about the whole "loooooooooong" thing.

I really don't think WotC made Xcom2 any easier. What makes you say that?

Did you miss the part where in WotC you had a permanently stealthed character who could just spend the whole game spotting for snipers? Ambush every enemy group perfectly with overwatch? Ontop of throwing grenades while cloaked and being able to finish off enemy units? The other hero classes were cool (and OP) too but the stealth guy is just broken.

Also WotC really amps up the pure stat bonuses characters can have, by the mid game your best characters with the best bonuses are sitting around 130-140 accuracy. Then there's the whole ability training thing which takes the chance of your best few soldiers getting an insanely OP skill combo somewhere from around 10% in vanilla to 90% in WotC. Then the whole side-mission thing where you send off soldiers for a bit is basically a way to give the player free stacking permanent bonuses and higher skilled soldiers just by passing the clock.

ArchAngel is an edgelord but he's right about the game being easier with Wotc.

They added way more tools to the Xcom side to deal with aliens and very little to none on the enemy side, not even more late game enemies as i would expect.

The balance has always been that way - early game is pure praying to RNG, late game is roflstomp. That goes for most games, actually.

WotC makes the early game much harder - especially the Hunter can easily wipe out your basic bitch party single-handedly - but yeah, when you kill them off the new tools will remain and make the late game even more trivial.

Early game enemy heroes have two possibilities: It's a non-timed mission and you can just sit there and watch them suicide themselves alone against your prepared troops, or it's a timed mission and you just lost that mission. That said I don't think any of them are really all that deadly, it's just another surprise that can cause a mission abort if it comes at a really bad time. On their own they don't do much unless they spawn with the perfect set of mods. The fact that all of the essential missions you can't skip like taking down the dark project sites aren't timed means you have a lot of leeway with them.

The bigger problem is the "boss" monsters due to how their fucked up turn system works. Basically you know how to exploit them or you die immediately, and if you run into them on a timed mission it's also gg abort.

 

[eXalted]

All in all the game aged very well. The tactical layer is obviously vastly inferior to WotC but I actually like hunting for UFO more than watching a scanning timer go round and round. Still eminently playable, even without Long War (vanilla is terrible tho, EW was as big a deal for XCOM1 as was WotC for XCOM2).

Yes, EW is pretty good. There is just one thing that is really bad and that is the super scripted DLCs. The way the enemies spawn in them is so gimmicky that you just have to know from previous experience where they land otherwise you are a toast.

 

[cvv]

Yes, EW is pretty good. There is just one thing that is really bad and that is the super scripted DLCs. The way the enemies spawn in them is so gimmicky that you just have to know from previous experience where they land otherwise you are a toast.

Not a big problem for me. Plus I REALLY like the idea of those unique "story" missions (Slingshot, Progeny and Newfoundland), as good as WotC is there's only so many times you can extract a VIP, hack a terminal or kill everything until you've seen it all. I'm probably in the minority but I always leave the Shen's Gift and Alien Hunter story missions on, just for the sake of variety.

 

[Serus]

People who think default long war 1 is too "long" should remember, it can be shortened with appropriate settings.

 

[Average Manatee]

Yes, EW is pretty good. There is just one thing that is really bad and that is the super scripted DLCs. The way the enemies spawn in them is so gimmicky that you just have to know from previous experience where they land otherwise you are a toast.

Not a big problem for me. Plus I REALLY like the idea of those unique "story" missions (Slingshot, Progeny and Newfoundland), as good as WotC is there's only so many times you can extract a VIP, hack a terminal or kill everything until you've seen it all. I'm probably in the minority but I always leave the Shen's Gift and Alien Hunter story missions on, just for the sake of variety.

I always leave all those special missions on. Definitely a good break from the mundane missions.

People who think default long war 1 is too "long" should remember, it can be shortened with appropriate settings.

Even at half length its too long IMO and the mod starts to break down at that point. Soldiers wounded/planes damaged for months, soldiers basically gain levels just from looking at aliens (but XP gain is capped, so missions with lots of aliens waste 90% of XP). Aliens can get massive power spikes when missions end up spaced out, and a bad roll on capturing something can mean you've REALLY missed out as it doesn't show up forever.

 

[Serus]

Yes, EW is pretty good. There is just one thing that is really bad and that is the super scripted DLCs. The way the enemies spawn in them is so gimmicky that you just have to know from previous experience where they land otherwise you are a toast.

Not a big problem for me. Plus I REALLY like the idea of those unique "story" missions (Slingshot, Progeny and Newfoundland), as good as WotC is there's only so many times you can extract a VIP, hack a terminal or kill everything until you've seen it all. I'm probably in the minority but I always leave the Shen's Gift and Alien Hunter story missions on, just for the sake of variety.

I always leave all those special missions on. Definitely a good break from the mundane missions.

People who think default long war 1 is too "long" should remember, it can be shortened with appropriate settings.

Even at half length its too long IMO and the mod starts to break down at that point. Soldiers wounded/planes damaged for months, soldiers basically gain levels just from looking at aliens (but XP gain is capped, so missions with lots of aliens waste 90% of XP). Aliens can get massive power spikes when missions end up spaced out, and a bad roll on capturing something can mean you've REALLY missed out as it doesn't show up forever.

It's true that with less missions Long War gets more reliant on RNG and slightly more challenging, proportionally to how much you shorten it. One could lower the difficulty a bit to compensate. It is still playable though as much as I can tell. You can adjust the length too, it's 50% by default but this value can also be changed.
In addition I don't see how a halved long war is really so much "too long". A normal campaign of Long War is indeed quite taxing, say ~150+ missions which could be (and is) considered "too long" by many. However it means that a halved version should be doable under 100 missions. You have several dozens of missions in a vanilla play-through as well, it's not that different at this point.
Personally I don't mind the pace of base long war too much but I understand how it might be too long for some people. That's why I wanted to remind of the possibility of shortening the campaign when playing the mod. To each on its own.

 

[Average Manatee]

My ideal campaign length is more like 30 missions. Even vanilla would be too long IMO if not for the fact that past halfway you just own everything in 1/10th the time. I like OG X-Com and how you can complete a campaign over a weekend. Long War is more like a month. Another big problem with Long war is that it requires so much attention/focus to avoid losing an entire campaign from one or two bad modes that you have to completely dedicate yourself to the game. You can't just pick a Long War game back up in the middle or you'll be hopelessly lost and forget half the shit. But playing Long War in 80% of your leisure time for weeks is so easy to burn out on.

 

[mastroego]

You could play it a bit more casually with the Air Superiority option (IIRC) and other minor config adjustments.
Gaining a bit in terms of incremental progress at the start will let you play more relaxed in the following stages.
Still ok, it is not a casual walk in the park.

 

[Jaedar]

People who think default long war 1 is too "long" should remember, it can be shortened with appropriate settings.

It can, but it fucks up the balance, and will still be dozens of hours (longer than you would like).

 

[Serus]

People who think default long war 1 is too "long" should remember, it can be shortened with appropriate settings.

It can, but it fucks up the balance, and will still be dozens of hours (longer than you would like).

What one "would like", obviously depends on who you ask. For me at least LW1 is superior to vanilla to such degree that I could never go back even if I share many people's feelings (yours included) that the default campaign of Long War drags for too long.

 

[cvv]

Playing XCOM 2 and XCOM 1 now back to back I think my biggest problem is: this type of game is absolutely meant to be play without save scumming. Constantly reloading after a catastrophic turn (or even one bad crit) completely sucks the fun out of the game. Problem is the game is VERY taxing if you play Ironman, especially LW. It CAN be done, I'm watching a LW1 Impossible/Ironman playthrough and the dude is acing it. But you have to be extremely careful and 150% focused every single second. A mission can take anywhere between 30 mins to an hour. Plus you gotta know the game like your own nose.

So that leaves you with two options - either you save scum and lose interest in the middle of the campaign because zero tension and/or stakes....or you play Ironman but you gotta be a goddamn savant to pull it off. My thinking is both games would be much more fun if Ironman was the default mode but the game was built so that anyone can play it that way, including noobies or just normal, average players.

Funny thing, I don't remember any save scumming spree in the original UFO games. Maybe the basic design - troops are numerous and cheap - allowed for chill play. Losing two, three soldiers didn't blow a huge hole in your campaign. Anyone knows how are Xenonauts in this regard?

 

[Mazisky]

Playing XCOM 2 and XCOM 1 now back to back I think my biggest problem is: this type of game is absolutely meant to be play without save scumming. Constantly reloading after a catastrophic turn (or even one bad crit) completely sucks the fun out of the game. Problem is the game is VERY taxing if you play Ironman, especially LW. It CAN be done, I'm watching a LW1 Impossible/Ironman playthrough and the dude is acing it. But you have to be extremely careful and 150% focused every single second. A mission can take anywhere between 30 mins to an hour. Plus you gotta know the game like your own nose.

So that leaves you with two options - either you save scum and lose interest in the middle of the campaign because zero tension and/or stakes....or you play Ironman but you gotta be a goddamn savant to pull it off. My thinking is both games would be much more fun if Ironman was the default mode but the game was built so that anyone can play it that way, including noobies or just normal, average players.

Funny thing, I don't remember any save scumming spree in the original UFO games. Maybe the basic design - troops are numerous and cheap - allowed for chill play. Losing two, three soldiers didn't blow a huge hole in your campaign. Anyone knows how are Xenonauts in this regard?

A nice middle ground is to save scum but only on strategic layer so you have to deal with your tactical failures but still can recover with good management.

 

[mastroego]

Playing XCOM 2 and XCOM 1 now back to back I think my biggest problem is: this type of game is absolutely meant to be play without save scumming. Constantly reloading after a catastrophic turn (or even one bad crit) completely sucks the fun out of the game. Problem is the game is VERY taxing if you play Ironman, especially LW. It CAN be done, I'm watching a LW1 Impossible/Ironman playthrough and the dude is acing it. But you have to be extremely careful and 150% focused every single second. A mission can take anywhere between 30 mins to an hour. Plus you gotta know the game like your own nose.

So that leaves you with two options - either you save scum and lose interest in the middle of the campaign because zero tension and/or stakes....or you play Ironman but you gotta be a goddamn savant to pull it off. My thinking is both games would be much more fun if Ironman was the default mode but the game was built so that anyone can play it that way, including noobies or just normal, average players.

Funny thing, I don't remember any save scumming spree in the original UFO games. Maybe the basic design - troops are numerous and cheap - allowed for chill play. Losing two, three soldiers didn't blow a huge hole in your campaign. Anyone knows how are Xenonauts in this regard?

It's possible to find a middle ground, I did it.
If something happened that I truly, TRULY could not accept, I would replay the mission from scratch (not just reload from a couple of turns back).
It might seem a lot of reloading, but as you say missions can get very long so you tend to accept the results unless they're truly catastrophic.
And you can do it in LW1 since restarting the map puts the enemies in different positions.

I did not lose interest in the campaign, or rather, it started to happen when I was really close to the end and I still managed to get to the final mission... Indeed I was beginning to steamroll the missions by then but overall the campaign remained "balanced" up until that point.
Of course it's unrealistic to expect to always nail a perfect balance in a campaign that long when incremental bonuses can be gained or lost, but with this approach I more or less got in the vicinity of such a situation.
I would on average proceed having suffered setbacks but not ones so devastating I would need to call it quits.