X-COM XCOM 2 + War of the Chosen Expansion Thread

[Average Manatee]

You make some valid points, but it's worth noting that a particular gun doesn't have to only have a single fire mode like it does in XCOM - I mean a rifle could fire an aimed single shot, a short burst or a full auto suppression burst etc all for the same "1 action" cost. Quite a lot of the complexity is missing because Firaxis chose not to include it, rather than because it's impossible to do.

EDIT - I've got a bit sidetracked because that's almost certainly something they won't fix with XCOM 2, but I still don't think it's evidence that TU are the only way forward for serious strategy games.

Well I'm certainly not saying that 2AP systems can't be "serious" or whatever. But I'd say that the only instance in which 2AP actually has an inherent advantage over TUs (as opposed to the advantage of a specific implementation in either X-Com game, both of which have numerous flaws) is either in multiplayer or with much larger squad sizes that makes speed-of-play an important thing to consider.

How so? During the alien turn, they move (to cover), then overwatch OR open fire. You don't need 2 move actions for that, unless there are no cover available, but that is mostly a mission design issue then.
That would also punish stupid positionning, as you'd be dead meat if caught by surprise in the open, if only the aliens were allowed to be on patrol or on overwatch...

I'm talking strictly pre-combat Alien moves towards you to spot (out of cover)->alien moves to cover->alien can't fire.

Of course if aliens are already active and aware of you, they'll move into cover as their first action, then fire on their second.

Actually, X-Com seems more tailored after special forces or SWAT operations than regular armies. Its prequel, Laser Squad featured many commando missions (enter building, destroy terminals, or assassinate someone).
Btw, if we follow the rl argument, moving in real life looks more like neuXCom than x-com, because you spend an awful longer time looking for opponents, or keeping your head down, than moving in the open : in other words, the "moving" part of a rl move action only represents a short time compared to the look for threats, and try not to be a too easy target while doing so.

Neither game implements looking as a an action that costs time, so dunno what you are talking about. In fact X-Com does cost TUs to turn, which is the closest.

If you just want to talk about movement then original X-Com is better. Reaction fire is a comparison of the ticking clocks of each solder's reactions and TUs left, which makes sense. Nuxcom's overwatch system is silly and makes running a single step exactly the same as running straight up to the aliens and 50 feet in the other direction.

But in any case realism arguments aren't hugely important. Turn based movement is never going to translate perfectly to reality.

But that's entirely not what a 2AP system accomplishes. You could have very nearly the same movement-based gameplay with a TU system where all guns required 51% of TUs to fire, rather than the 20-30% of X-COM. Absolutely nothing "lost" from what makes 2AP supposedly superior, and gaining everything good about the TU system (more diverse actions and aiming types, inventory, stances, etc). And losing the latter in a 2AP system does certainly dumb down the system. Whatever you think 2AP adds, and whether or not you think what you think it adds outweighs what it takes away, you can't say that losing that complexity that it takes away isn't dumbing down.

Actually, if you have all guns require 51% AP to fire, then your whole AP system becomes irrelevant. On top of that it is very akward to use melee with an AP system (things like charge are much easier to represent with discreet actions than TU, as it is both a move and an attack).

It's not irrelevant at all. Crouching still uses TUs, Turning uses TUs, inventory management uses TUs. Do you run further for better cover or shorter for worse cover that leaves you TUs to crouch before shooting? That's a decent circumstantial decision. Do you shoot or fall back, pull out a grenade and prime it? Neither of these can really happen in NuXcom.

Melee is awkward, but that's mostly a UI issue. OpenXcom already pretty much fixes it by showing you how many TUs will be left before you make a move, and it's not hard to dumb it down even further by adding a giant "you won't be able to attack in melee if you move this far" warning.

 

[Galdred]

You make some valid points, but it's worth noting that a particular gun doesn't have to only have a single fire mode like it does in XCOM - I mean a rifle could fire an aimed single shot, a short burst or a full auto suppression burst etc all for the same "1 action" cost. Quite a lot of the complexity is missing because Firaxis chose not to include it, rather than because it's impossible to do.

EDIT - I've got a bit sidetracked because that's almost certainly something they won't fix with XCOM 2, but I still don't think it's evidence that TU are the only way forward for serious strategy games.

Well I'm certainly not saying that 2AP systems can't be "serious" or whatever. But I'd say that the only instance in which 2AP actually has an inherent advantage over TUs (as opposed to the advantage of a specific implementation in either X-Com game, both of which have numerous flaws) is either in multiplayer or with much larger squad sizes that makes speed-of-play an important thing to consider.

Heh, Actually, that's a different problem, and I can only agree: I find it sad that they both made it faster to order squaddies around, and dropped the number of squadies. I think the diminished squad members has a much greater impact that the removal of TU.

How so? During the alien turn, they move (to cover), then overwatch OR open fire. You don't need 2 move actions for that, unless there are no cover available, but that is mostly a mission design issue then.
That would also punish stupid positionning, as you'd be dead meat if caught by surprise in the open, if only the aliens were allowed to be on patrol or on overwatch...

I'm talking strictly pre-combat Alien moves towards you to spot (out of cover)->alien moves to cover->alien can't fire.

Of course if aliens are already active and aware of you, they'll move into cover as their first action, then fire on their second.

But that is my point : the problem does not lie in the TU system, but in the "pre combat" activation system. If Alien were patrolling seriously, they would either send a lone scout on double move with large squad as backup, or patrol from cover to cover. Them seeming to pick up daisies is stupid theme wise (because they cannot have failed to notice the big plane that just touched down a few hundred meters away, especially after they hear gunfire in the area), and gameplay wise (well, the whole game is balanced around it, so it cannot be removed easily). If this part had stayed close to XCom, with aliens ready to snipe you when you arrive, it would make the combat more interesting, and you could take more risks, as you would not be afraid to "activate" a new pod.

Actually, X-Com seems more tailored after special forces or SWAT operations than regular armies. Its prequel, Laser Squad featured many commando missions (enter building, destroy terminals, or assassinate someone).
Btw, if we follow the rl argument, moving in real life looks more like neuXCom than x-com, because you spend an awful longer time looking for opponents, or keeping your head down, than moving in the open : in other words, the "moving" part of a rl move action only represents a short time compared to the look for threats, and try not to be a too easy target while doing so.

Neither game implements looking as a an action that costs time, so dunno what you are talking about. In fact X-Com does cost TUs to turn, which is the closest.

If you just want to talk about movement then original X-Com is better. Reaction fire is a comparison of the ticking clocks of each solder's reactions and TUs left, which makes sense. Nuxcom's overwatch system is silly and makes running a single step exactly the same as running straight up to the aliens and 50 feet in the other direction.

But in any case realism arguments aren't hugely important. Turn based movement is never going to translate perfectly to reality.

Actually, my point was that the looking around and getting into cover part taking most of the time of a "movement", it made sense that movements cost roughly the same regardless of the distance. Having a detailled system does not make it realistic when so many things need to be abstracted.

But that's entirely not what a 2AP system accomplishes. You could have very nearly the same movement-based gameplay with a TU system where all guns required 51% of TUs to fire, rather than the 20-30% of X-COM. Absolutely nothing "lost" from what makes 2AP supposedly superior, and gaining everything good about the TU system (more diverse actions and aiming types, inventory, stances, etc). And losing the latter in a 2AP system does certainly dumb down the system. Whatever you think 2AP adds, and whether or not you think what you think it adds outweighs what it takes away, you can't say that losing that complexity that it takes away isn't dumbing down.

Actually, if you have all guns require 51% AP to fire, then your whole AP system becomes irrelevant. On top of that it is very akward to use melee with an AP system (things like charge are much easier to represent with discreet actions than TU, as it is both a move and an attack).

It's not irrelevant at all. Crouching still uses TUs, Turning uses TUs, inventory management uses TUs. Do you run further for better cover or shorter for worse cover that leaves you TUs to crouch before shooting? That's a decent circumstantial decision. Do you shoot or fall back, pull out a grenade and prime it? Neither of these can really happen in NuXcom.

Melee is awkward, but that's mostly a UI issue. OpenXcom already pretty much fixes it by showing you how many TUs will be left before you make a move, and it's not hard to dumb it down even further by adding a giant "you won't be able to attack in melee if you move this far" warning.

Actually, you still have to consider whether to move out of cover given that some opponents are in overwatch, and the longer you move, the more opponents that could shoot your guy (of course, it would work better if all aliens started combat ready, as "activating another pod"; although being another parameter to consider, makes little sense).
All of this is negated by the fact that you have zero reason to do anything else than shoot once you see an opponent. And I would not defend the priming grenade minigame.
My point about melee has nothing to do with UI. It was that when charging an opponent, or when firing on the move (more useful for a tank than a soldier), you can both move and attack at the same time, which is not possible with the TU system.

And most of this could still be abstracted by giving you a shooting penalty depending on the distance covered. Moving would make shooting less efficient, and you would still have to decide whether to aim precisely, or find a better position, without relying on TUs.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Actually, in Enemy Within on the higher difficulties aliens do seem to patrol and move on their own accord.
Not as much as you'd like, but there are times an alien squad would surprise my squad, or even join a firefight.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Again, the idea is to make it so you don't just stick your guys in a spot and have them sit there shooting. You may think that's a dumb reason, but it is a reason.

If that's the reason then yeah, I find it dumb. Whether I want to move somebody or not should be tied only to the challange at hand and the tactical situation on the map, not some arbitrary gaming mechanic. I heavily dislike arbitrary mechanics in games. I would dislike them less if people who come up with them would at least be able to not make them clash like a Titanic with other arbitrary stuff and as a result making the game shit, but modern Firaxis cannot do that. "Oh boy, let's move this guy to get a better position and flank that alien. I killed him but also triggered a spawn of Chryssalids that killed half my team without me being able to do a thing about it 'cause aliens can't be discriminated against and have their arbitrary rules too, great fun!" And why can't I make actions other than move after shooting first? Granade, medkit, hunker down? Banal, shit, arbitrary, boring.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Nothing really new probably but I'm gonna still link this;

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xcom-2-will-add-looting-stealth-and-better-mod-sup/1100-6428304/

Highlights for lazyfags,

-a new looting system means you can manually recover even more valuable technology from the corpses of enemies, and place it in your soldiers' new backpacks.You’ll be able to take them back to base and do some very, very cool stuff--such as customising your weapons, and customising the inherent attributes of your soldiers.
-We're going to have Steam Workshop support, and the Unreal editor so you can do total content conversions," says DeAngelis. "And we're going to release the gameplay source, so you can do partial edits to existing abilities and stats."
-if you're in a building, and you have a unit on the second floor, or the roof, if someone shoots at you, that floor could go out from under you at any time and you can fall through--which is an homage to the original Xcom
-In EU, you had kill missions, and scripted VIP rescue missions," DeAngelis explains. "Now, we're sort of combining the two, within a very procedural system. Not just procedural maps, but now there are gameplay mechanics layered on top, where you don't know exactly what you're doing when you go in. It could be recovering intel, hacking a workstation, destroying a building--and they're not scripted like they were in EU.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Actual inventory and more destruction sound like potential

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Nothing really new probably but I'm gonna still link this;

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xcom-2-will-add-looting-stealth-and-better-mod-sup/1100-6428304/

Highlights for lazyfags,

-if you're in a building, and you have a unit on the second floor, or the roof, if someone shoots at you, that floor could go out from under you at any time and you can fall through--which is an homage to the original Xcom

Holy crap, that sounds awesome.
I hope they take it one step further and allow you to raze buildings, like in apoc.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

I hope they'll finally give us something like the blaster launchers and allow doing actual cool tactical stuff like punching a hole in the top of a huge ufo and jetpack into the command center instead of slowly fighting through lower floors.

Hope dies last bro.

 

[ArchAngel]

Nothing really new probably but I'm gonna still link this;

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xcom-2-will-add-looting-stealth-and-better-mod-sup/1100-6428304/

Highlights for lazyfags,

-a new looting system means you can manually recover even more valuable technology from the corpses of enemies, and place it in your soldiers' new backpacks.You’ll be able to take them back to base and do some very, very cool stuff--such as customising your weapons, and customising the inherent attributes of your soldiers.
-We're going to have Steam Workshop support, and the Unreal editor so you can do total content conversions," says DeAngelis. "And we're going to release the gameplay source, so you can do partial edits to existing abilities and stats."
-if you're in a building, and you have a unit on the second floor, or the roof, if someone shoots at you, that floor could go out from under you at any time and you can fall through--which is an homage to the original Xcom
-In EU, you had kill missions, and scripted VIP rescue missions," DeAngelis explains. "Now, we're sort of combining the two, within a very procedural system. Not just procedural maps, but now there are gameplay mechanics layered on top, where you don't know exactly what you're doing when you go in. It could be recovering intel, hacking a workstation, destroying a building--and they're not scripted like they were in EU.

- So an expanded collect Meld system where you get to collect multiple items now. Still no battle inventory...
- Good, someone can make a proper Xcom with their engine
- the real question is if we can use our action to destroy floors and roofs, otherwise useless except in some scripted situations
- I fear this will mean less different missions. In last xcom EW they had ufo crash, ufo land, terror, base assault, lots of different council missions and all the new missions types added with EW including base defense. I fear this talk of theirs for Xcom2 will just cause less different mission types and we will only get a few of these random mission objectives which will repeat themselves ALL THE TIME

 

[whatevername]

If that's the reason then yeah, I find it dumb. Whether I want to move somebody or not should be tied only to the challange at hand and the tactical situation on the map, not some arbitrary gaming mechanic. I heavily dislike arbitrary mechanics in games. I would dislike them less if people who come up with them would at least be able to not make them clash like a Titanic with other arbitrary stuff and as a result making the game shit, but modern Firaxis cannot do that. "Oh boy, let's move this guy to get a better position and flank that alien. I killed him but also triggered a spawn of Chryssalids that killed half my team without me being able to do a thing about it 'cause aliens can't be discriminated against and have their arbitrary rules too, great fun!" And why can't I make actions other than move after shooting first? Granade, medkit, hunker down? Banal, shit, arbitrary, boring.

Don't forget you're arguing with people who LIKE nuXCOM; that's like talking to a cat.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Meow meow muddafucka.

 

[Zombra]

Don't forget you're arguing with people who LIKE nuXCOM; that's like talking to a cat.

Actually he's talking to someone who is explaining the purported rationale for a design decision made by other people in response to claims that there is "NO REASON" for it to be done that way. There is a reason; Codexers just don't like it. Big difference. I don't have a horse in this race.

 

[Gozma]

Vanilla game had no base defense. They added a canned version in the expansion pack/DLC (as in it was a static map, unlike the original game where the map you fight on is based on the facilities and layout you actually built). There's also only one static alien base, which you basically hit to progress the "main quest".

In Long War you have both multiple base defense and base attacks, which is kinda mixed in my opinion because there are only two alien base maps and they're both linear, turtle-ey, and boring. They don't even use Long War's randomized deployment position.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Are multiple base defence and offence part of Xcom just like original UFO

Multiple no. There is one base raid, and one defense which was added in Enemy Within.
They are fine I guess. The base defense is actually somewhat easy, as long as you deploy all your guys on high ground.
The AI will do this annoying thing though where they hide 1-2 members of the last wave, wait till the next wave spawns behind you, and then move the survivors behind you to shoot you in the ass when you move to react.

 

[Zeriel]

Nothing really new probably but I'm gonna still link this;

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xcom-2-will-add-looting-stealth-and-better-mod-sup/1100-6428304/

Highlights for lazyfags,

-a new looting system means you can manually recover even more valuable technology from the corpses of enemies, and place it in your soldiers' new backpacks.You’ll be able to take them back to base and do some very, very cool stuff--such as customising your weapons, and customising the inherent attributes of your soldiers.
-We're going to have Steam Workshop support, and the Unreal editor so you can do total content conversions," says DeAngelis. "And we're going to release the gameplay source, so you can do partial edits to existing abilities and stats."
-if you're in a building, and you have a unit on the second floor, or the roof, if someone shoots at you, that floor could go out from under you at any time and you can fall through--which is an homage to the original Xcom
-In EU, you had kill missions, and scripted VIP rescue missions," DeAngelis explains. "Now, we're sort of combining the two, within a very procedural system. Not just procedural maps, but now there are gameplay mechanics layered on top, where you don't know exactly what you're doing when you go in. It could be recovering intel, hacking a workstation, destroying a building--and they're not scripted like they were in EU.

- So an expanded collect Meld system where you get to collect multiple items now. Still no battle inventory...
- Good, someone can make a proper Xcom with their engine
- the real question is if we can use our action to destroy floors and roofs, otherwise useless except in some scripted situations
- I fear this will mean less different missions. In last xcom EW they had ufo crash, ufo land, terror, base assault, lots of different council missions and all the new missions types added with EW including base defense. I fear this talk of theirs for Xcom2 will just cause less different mission types and we will only get a few of these random mission objectives which will repeat themselves ALL THE TIME

What exactly do you want for mission types?

Not like X-COM had variety in objectives, it was pretty much always the same one (kill everything, or don't, up to you).

The main thing X-COM fags should want from XCOM2 is the procedurally generated maps and a solid combat system. If you can get past gripes with the combat, XCOM2's procedural maps with whatever objectives or no objectives except kill everything sure seems superior to a few static maps with varied objectives, at least in my opinion.

 

[ArchAngel]

Well new Xcom mission variety was Incline, so I want that Incline to continue.

 

[Zeriel]

Spotted this in one of the interviews:

But the other cool thing about destructibility is, if you're in a building, and you have a unit on the second floor, or the roof, if someone shoots at you, that floor could go out from under you at any time and you can fall through--which is an homage to the original XCOM: UFO Defense.

Looks like they managed to get actual destructibility affecting gameplay more coherently this time, I suppose we have the PC exclusivity to thank for that.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Spotted this in one of the interviews:

But the other cool thing about destructibility is, if you're in a building, and you have a unit on the second floor, or the roof, if someone shoots at you, that floor could go out from under you at any time and you can fall through--which is an homage to the original XCOM: UFO Defense.

Looks like they managed to get actual destructibility affecting gameplay more coherently this time, I suppose we have the PC exclusivity to thank for that.

You quoted this info yesterday

 

[Zeriel]

Spotted this in one of the interviews:

But the other cool thing about destructibility is, if you're in a building, and you have a unit on the second floor, or the roof, if someone shoots at you, that floor could go out from under you at any time and you can fall through--which is an homage to the original XCOM: UFO Defense.

Looks like they managed to get actual destructibility affecting gameplay more coherently this time, I suppose we have the PC exclusivity to thank for that.

You quoted this info yesterday

I did? I don't remember reading it before, guess I skimmed.

GODDAMNIT ALZHEIMERS

 

[Grotesque]

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Still annoying I see, but the new information is still appreciated.

 

[Zombra]

Still annoying I see, but the new information is still appreciated.

Ugh, if anyone wants to recap the new info, not excited to spend 16 minutes watching an interview.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Still annoying I see, but the new information is still appreciated.

Ugh, if anyone wants to recap the new info, not excited to spend 16 minutes watching an interview.

Most have been covered in other sources
But there is some new information -

There will be new aliens, and they have been described as weird

The demo was indeed heavily scripted

Loot collected on the field can be used to upgrade weapons and soldiers

Maps will be random

There is a reinforcements mechanic that will cause enemies to spawn in, like during the council missions in XCOM

The sword can be upgraded

There most likely will not be MECs

Garth has played the Long War. He thinks its amazing, though he gets his ass kicked

There will not be increase on the squad cap (so still 4-6 soldiers)

Garth does not know if XCOM 2 will be on console. The reason he gave for the PC exclusive business that as Firaxis is primarily a company that develops games for PCs, it would be more efficient to direct the resources to making it run on a single platform, rather than learning how to get it to work on consoles.

Still using the two action system from XCOM

 

[Black]

Still annoying I see, but the new information is still appreciated.

Ugh, if anyone wants to recap the new info, not excited to spend 16 minutes watching an interview.

He still only has 7 bucks in his wallet.

 

[Raghar]

Ugh, if anyone wants to recap the new info, not excited to spend 16 minutes watching an interview.

He's an idiot.