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Vapourware WOTC restricting content creation in new OGL - Paizo launches competing OGL - lol cancelled

rojay

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That's been the big secret the whole time. It's a contract that's explicitly not enforcing things that are unenforceable.

The real goal was to promote a 3rd party ecosystem, for better or worse.
I think that, at least in theory, the essence of what is being licensed by the ogl is the names used by the rules system. Yes, you can have your own system where characters have statistics which, for normal humans, go from 3 to 18. You could have a rule where contests are resolved by throwing an icosahedron and adding a relevant statistic subtracted of 10 and then halved and floored. But if you want to call your statistics "attributes", that particular calculation you made "modifier", icosahedrons d20s etc, then the OGL is a security you won't, probably, face a lawsuit because of that.

Now, being clear, I do go overboard a bit. XdY is a common notation in several game systems, so it is unlikely WotC would try to sue because of that (I wouldn't say impossible, though, they seem progressively more deranged lately). Attribute is such a common word, both in RPGs and outside them, that it is also unlikely to be the basis of litigation. Others, however, like saving throw or modifier or challenge rating are more dangerous and might well be used as an excuse to shut you down.

Now, of course, if you want to make your own system and just do your own thing, D&D be damned, this is not a big problem. But if you wanted to find a niche withing the D&D "ecosystem", maybe making some kind of adventure or splatbook that no one is doing, then working around what you can't use without the OGL may hurt your product and your sales. Sure, it might be compatible as long as someone translate the new terms back to the old ones. But doing that wastes time, so people may overlook your product just because of that.

Nothing in the OGL that pertains to terms and mechanics can be copyrighted. Let's review what the lawyer said here.

In plain English, “We’re licensing to you game mechanics, which we have no right to prevent you from using.”

In plain English, “We’re not licensing anything that we could theoretically license to you, so you may not use Product Identity. In fact, you can’t even say that your original work is compatible with our game system.”

The only thing that WotC can license to people is the ability to use their trademarks and settings, but you are prohibited by the OGL from doing it. All the OGL does is gatekeep through copyright misuse things that everyone has access and a right to. Imagine if people didn't get upset if your local parks department shut every park down and sold them to Nestle only to have Nestle forced you to sign a contract to enter into something you have a right already.

Single words and short phrases are not copyrightable. That's why hit points, armor class, THAC0, etc... are available for everyone to use. Wizards may not like it, but you can use it. The only term I know of that requires an analogue is Dungeon Master and DM. That's because first TSR trademarked it and Wizards keeps paying to renew said trademark. If Wizards didn't sue every Tom, Dick, and Harry for using Dungeon Master/DM they'd lose the trademark. It's a you have to fight situation.
It's not as clear as you think, JD. formulas are not subject to copyright but the expression of them can be and that's the edge where people litigate. You're correct that all WotC can license is what they've trademarked or what's subject to copyright, but it's the extent of the latter that can be the issue.
 

deuxhero

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Even if one could practically create a new system with the same rules worded differently
1: That's a lot of work
2: Everything being slightly different leads to a lot of compatibility issues.

Real OGL is useful for avoiding those issues when the cost is literally just "use a single page of your work including the license and citing who/where you took stuff from". It's absofuckingly not worth 25% of your income.
 

JamesDixon

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formulas are not subject to copyright but the expression of them can be and that's the edge where people litigate.

The exact formula expression can't be copyrighted otherwise you make a monopoly. What is copyrightable as the exact expression of the wording used for non-mathematical formulas is. This example from the AD&D 2E PHB paladin description.

The paladin is a noble and heroic warrior, the symbol of all that is right and true in the world. As such, he has high ideals that he must maintain at all times. Throughout leg-end and history there are many heroes who could be called paladins: Roland and the 12 Peers of Charlemagne, Sir Lancelot, Sir Gawain, and Sir Galahad are all examples of the class. However, many brave and heroic soldiers have tried and failed to live up to the ideals of the paladin. It is not an easy task!

Only a human may become a paladin. He must have minimum ability scores of Strength 12, Constitution 9, Wisdom 13, and Charisma 17. Strength and Charisma are the prime requisites of the paladin. A paladin must be lawful good in alignment and must always remain lawful good. A paladin who changes alignment, either deliberately or inadvertently, loses all his special powers—sometimes only temporarily and sometimes forever. He can use any weapon and wear any type of armor.

That's copyrighted due to the form of its expression i.e. wording. Now compare that to a rewritten version.

The paladin is a righteous and valiant warrior, embodying all that is good and true. They uphold high standards and ideals, and examples of paladins can be found in legends and history such as Roland and the 12 Peers of Charlemagne, Sir Lancelot, Sir Gawain, and Sir Galahad. However, becoming a paladin is not easy, as many brave soldiers have struggled to meet the expectations of this noble class.

Only humans are eligible to become paladins, who must possess a minimum Strength of 12, Constitution of 9, Wisdom of 13 and Charisma of 17. Strength and Charisma are the most important attributes for a paladin. They must be lawful good in alignment and maintain that alignment at all times. Any deviation from lawful good will result in the loss of their special powers, which may be temporary or permanent. Paladins are proficient in using any weapon and wearing any type of armor.

Same mechanic, but just written differently. The opening paragraph is relaying of historical information which again, isn't copyrightable like you can't copyright data tables, historical facts, and the like.

You're correct that all WotC can license is what they've trademarked or what's subject to copyright, but it's the extent of the latter that can be the issue.

No game mechanics can be licensed as they're public domain. What is able to be licensed are the examples Wizards use to showcase the rules. However, Wizards doesn't let you use their examples and you have to write up your own if you so choose. Said examples fall under Product Identity.

Thank you for acknowledging my point. I appreciate it.

Real OGL is useful for avoiding those issues when the cost is literally just "use a single page of your work including the license and citing who/where you took stuff from". It's absofuckingly not worth 25% of your income.

OGL is as useful as used toilet paper that someone else shit in since it doesn't give you anything as mechanics are public domain. If Wizards would let a person use their settings and other trademarked items it would be a different story.

Finally, you don't have to write new basic mechanics. You write what you want for a particular system and publish it. Just don't do the following:

  • Use their logos
  • product names
  • other trademarked items
Do you know how For Gold & Glory OSR system gets around the issue? They say that they were inspired by the second edition of the most popular advanced fantasy game. They avoided saying a product name. AD&D 2E isn't trademarked any longer and is free to use. You can check the US Patent Office's online database.

So write what you want to write that is original and doesn't use any setting information for the rules you like. You don't need a license or permission for that.
 

deuxhero

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Finally, you don't have to write new basic mechanics. You write what you want for a particular system and publish it. Just don't do the following:

That's great if you want to work on one system forever, and never want to change the base game.

Let's also not pretend there isn't a decent amount of actually copyrightable stuff WotC put in the OGL. Drow (especially the parts of lore given in Unearthed Arcana's OGL content) are a fairly obvious one, but hardly the only one.
 

JamesDixon

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That's great if you want to work on one system forever, and never want to change the base game.

Nobody said you couldn't change the base game. You can add to it if you wish as long as it's not for a specific copyrighted and trademarked setting.

Let's also not pretend there isn't a decent amount of actually copyrightable stuff WotC put in the OGL. Drow (especially the parts of lore given in Unearthed Arcana's OGL content) are a fairly obvious one, but hardly the only one.

Drow are actually Scottish elves (fairies). Dark Elves are also folklore. Both live underground.

Everything that TSR and Wizards has created is from actual myths. You can't copyright myths either.

The few monsters that they did create wholesale do not have trademarked names with a distinct image attached. You can't copyright single words thus there are Beholders in non-D&D games. The image of the Beholder created by TSR is copyrighted, but the actual game mechanics of them are not. As long as you don't use the fluff created by TSR/Wizards you're fine.
 
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deuxhero

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That's great if you want to work on one system forever, and never want to change the base game.

Nobody said you couldn't change the base game. You can add to it if you wish as long as it's not for a specific copyrighted and trademarked setting.

Not cleanly. Replacing a section of rules, or worse, referencing one is a mess.

Let's also not pretend there isn't a decent amount of actually copyrightable stuff WotC put in the OGL. Drow (especially the parts of lore given in Unearthed Arcana's OGL content) are a fairly obvious one, but hardly the only one.

Drow are actually Scottish elves (fairies). Dark Elves are also folklore. Both live underground.

Scottish Trow aren't from matriarchal theocracies. Their society isn't based on cutthroat politicking either.
 

RPK

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this is a really good explanation of the whole "you don't need the OGL in the first place" conversation.

 

RPK

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What people are missing about the OGL wasn't that it was supposed to license things that were unlicenseable, it's that it was supposed to make this exact conversation go away so that people can just create stuff without having to worry about getting a C&D.
 

JamesDixon

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Not cleanly. Replacing a section of rules, or worse, referencing one is a mess.

Sounds like a you problem to me.

Scottish Trow aren't from matriarchal theocracies. Their society isn't based on cutthroat politicking either.

I take it you missed the last sentence you quoted in that paragraph to attempt to win.

As long as you don't use the fluff created by TSR/Wizards you're fine.

There is nothing to say that you can't have them use a matriarchal society and that they can't use cutthroat politics. Those are minor things compared to say that they worship the goddess Lloth of the Forgotten Realms which caused them to split from the rest of Elvish society.

this is a really good explanation of the whole "you don't need the OGL in the first place" conversation.



I don't listen to individuals that suffer from mental health problems like TDS and communism. Both apply to him.

What people are missing about the OGL wasn't that it was supposed to license things that were unlicenseable, it's that it was supposed to make this exact conversation go away so that people can just create stuff without having to worry about getting a C&D.

Incorrect, what it originally was to do was to mend the wounds inflicted by Lorraine Williams, last CEO of TSR, and her sending TSR lawyers after fans with cease and desist letters. She's part of the reason why we have the case law we do in regards to rules. People were not buying D&D products because of what Lorraine did. Thus, the retailers were shipping back their books and getting refunds. This in turn caused TSR to hemorrhage money that bankrupted them.

Wizards being greedy bastards thought that they could fool people by using copyright misuse. Remember, the OGL was designed solely to sell D&D products and to keep their audience dumb about their rights.
 

JamesDixon

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this is a really good explanation of the whole "you don't need the OGL in the first place" conversation.



I watched five minutes of him running his pie hole and espousing his "legal" opinion where he flat out ignores the law in regards to copyrights and the fact that the OGL does not license official content for D&D. Remember kiddies that you are forbidden from using any trademarks and trademarked names in selling your own product under the OGL. You can't use it that either without the OGL.

In short, DJ Stone is a retarded Commifornia lawyer that suffers from mental health issues.
 

RPK

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What people are missing about the OGL wasn't that it was supposed to license things that were unlicenseable, it's that it was supposed to make this exact conversation go away so that people can just create stuff without having to worry about getting a C&D.

Incorrect, what it originally was to do was to mend the wounds inflicted by Lorraine Williams, last CEO of TSR, and her sending TSR lawyers after fans with cease and desist letters. She's part of the reason why we have the case law we do in regards to rules. People were not buying D&D products because of what Lorraine did. Thus, the retailers were shipping back their books and getting refunds. This in turn caused TSR to hemorrhage money that bankrupted them.

Wizards being greedy bastards thought that they could fool people by using copyright misuse. Remember, the OGL was designed solely to sell D&D products and to keep their audience dumb about their rights.

I'm quoting Ryan Dancey, who wrote it, but hey keep being smugly confident that you've never been wrong about anything in your life.
 

JamesDixon

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I'm quoting Ryan Dancey, who wrote it,

Ryan's not a lawyer which means my lawyer trumps a businessman without any legal experience. As such, the lawyer I quoted is the correct opinion as he gives actual case law. You know the shit that judges use to determine whether to keep the established precedent or not. Based upon the quotations in the DaVinci ruling the earliest example goes back to the 19th century.

This was solidified further in DaVinci Editrice S.R.L. v. ZiKo Games LLC (2016) ruling.

Copyright law does not protect an idea; only its expression is protected. Nola Spice , 783 F.3d at 551. A party claiming infringement may place " ‘no reliance upon any similarity in expression resulting from’ unprotectable elements." Apple Comput. , 35 F.3d at 1446 (quoting Aliotti v. R. Dakin & Co. , 831 F.2d 898, 901 (9th Cir.1987) ). Copyright does not protect game rules because they fall within the section 102(b) exceptions for an "idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation." See, e.g. , Incredible Techs., Inc. v. Virtual Techs., Inc. , 400 F.3d 1007, 1012 (7th Cir.2005) ("[T]he Copyright Act provides that copyright protection does not extend to any "method of operation...regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work." (quoting § 102(b) )); Whist Club v. Foster , 42 F.2d 782, 782 (S.D.N.Y.1929) ("In the conventional laws or rules of a game, as distinguished from the forms or modes of expression in which they may be state[d], there can be no literary property susceptible of copyright."); MELVILLE B. & DAVID NIMMER, NIMMER ON COPYRIGHT § 2.18[H][3] (2010) ("[N]o copyright may be obtained in the system or manner of playing a Davinci Editrice S.R.L. v. ZiKo Games, LLC, 183 F.Supp.3d 820, 118 U.S.P.Q.2d 1501 (S.D. Tex., 2016) game or engaging in any other sporting or like activity.").

"[G]ame mechanics and the rules are not entitled to protection, but courts have found expressive elements copyrightable, including game labels, design of game boards, playing cards and graphical works." Tetris Holding, LLC v. Xio Interactive, Inc. , 863 F.Supp.2d 394, 404 (D.N.J. 2012) (citations omitted); see also Durham Indus., Inc. v. Tomy Corp. , 630 F.2d 905, 913 (2d Cir.1980) ("[C]opyright protection extends only to the artistic aspects, but not the mechanical or utilitarian features, of a protected work."). Unlike a book or movie plot, the rules and procedures, including the winning conditions, that make up a cardgame system of play do not themselves produce the artistic or literary content that is the hallmark of protectable expression. See Boyden, 18 GEO. MASON L. REV. at 466. Instead, the game rules, procedures, and winning conditions create the environment for expression. Id. ; see also Nat'l Basketball Ass'n , 105 F.3d at 846 ("Unlike movies, plays, television programs, or operas, athletic events are competitive and have no underlying script.").

This general rule is consistent with the decision in Baker v. Selden , 101 U.S. 99, 25 L.Ed. 841 (1879), in which the Supreme Court ruled that a particular bookkeeping system was not copyrightable. The language and illustrations that the plaintiff had used to explain his system were copyrightable, but they did not protect the system itself from use by other parties. The Copyright Office has applied the rule that copyright does not protect a system's operation method to games. The December 2011 fact sheet for Copyright Registration of Games states:

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or 9 trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author's expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. - U.S. COPYRIGHT OFFICE , FL-108, COPYRIGHT REGISTRATION OF GAMES (2011).

In Chamberlin v. Uris Sales Corporation , 56 F.Supp. 987 (S.D.N.Y.1944), the court held that the plaintiff could not rely on copyright protection for the rules of the [183 F.Supp.3d 831] game "Acy-Ducy," a four-player variation of backgammon. The court found that the plaintiff's game lacked the originality necessary for copyright protection, noting that "it is very doubtful if rules of a game can, in any event, be copyrightable subject matter." Id. at 988 (citations omitted). In Freedman v. Grolier Enters., Inc. , 1973 WL 19914 (S.D.N.Y. June 30, 1973), the court held that "[t]he placing of single numeral point count values beneath the suit symbols on honor cards in bridge decks [was] not copyrightable." Id. at *2. "[W]hen an idea is so restrictive that it necessarily requires a particular form of expression, that is, when the idea and its expression are functionally inseparable, to permit the copyrighting of the expression would be to grant the copyright owner a monopoly of the idea." Id. at *3.

Courts that have found infringement of a game generally focus on the visual appearance used in the game or on expressive aspects of the game's characters. Atari, Inc. v. N. Am. Philips Consumer Elecs. Corp. , 672 F.2d 607, 610 (7th Cir.1982), for example, Davinci Editrice S.R.L. v. ZiKo Games, LLC, 183 F.Supp.3d 820, 118 U.S.P.Q.2d 1501 (S.D. Tex., 2016) involved a copyright claim for the popular PAC-MAN game. PAC-MAN centered on a "gobbler" character eating dots as it progressed through a maze while avoiding "ghost monsters." The allegedly infringing game was essentially the same. The court held that the PAC-MAN game play—a character eating its way through dots in a maze while being chased—was not protectable. Id. at 617. But the court did find the characters' appearances and names protectable, because they were uniquely designed, fanciful, and "without reference to the real world." Id. at 617–18.

This is from the judgment.

Learned Hand's explanation of copyright protection in Nichols v. Universal Pictures Corp. is instructive. "If Twelfth Night were copyrighted, it is quite possible that a second 13 comer might so closely imitate Sir Toby Belch or Malvolio as to infringe, but it would not be enough that for one of his characters he cast a riotous knight who kept wassail to the discomfort of the household, or a vain and foppish steward who became amorous of his mistress." 45 F.2d 119, 121 (2d Cir.1930). In Learned Hand's example of noninfringement, the steward is vain and foppish and in love with his mistress. The roles and characters in Bang! and their interactions are far less developed than the steward and mistress in Learned Hand's description. Assigning a special ability to a Bang! character tells us little about how that [183 F.Supp.3d 835] character interacts with others. Bang! characters do not have delineated personalities, temperaments, back stories, or other features typical of characters in movies and books that contribute to making those characters' interactions protected. Their feelings about each other are undefined except for the crude boundary set by alignment or opposition. See Nichols v. Universal Pictures Corp. , 45 F.2d 119, 121 (2d Cir.1930) ("The less developed the characters, the less they can be copyrighted; that is the penalty an author must bear for marking them too indistinctly.").

The undisputed summary judgment evidence shows that Bang!'s characters, roles, and interactions are not substantially similar to those in LOTK . The aspects of the roles, characters, and interactions that are similar are not expressive, and aspects that are expressive are not substantially similar. ZiKo and Yoka are entitled to summary judgment of noninfringement.

As one can see that Ryan is in the wrong by the US Copyright Office and the US federal courts. Like I said, I cited a lawyer. You cited a game designer/businessman. I win.

hey keep being smugly confident that you've never been wrong about anything in your life.

This is what we call an ad hominem logical fallacy. It is deployed only when an individual has been soundly beaten to a bloody pulp verbally as a last ditch effort to derail the conversation. Usually this is combined with a form of projection.

I've been wrong plenty of times. In fact, when I am wrong I admit it and thank the person for correcting me. However, I am very rarely wrong since I research the subject before rushing off to comment on something.
 

RPK

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Messages
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I'm quoting Ryan Dancey, who wrote it,

Ryan's not a lawyer which means my lawyer trumps a businessman without any legal experience. As such, the lawyer I quoted is the correct opinion as he gives actual case law. You know the shit that judges use to determine whether to keep the established precedent or not. Based upon the quotations in the DaVinci ruling the earliest example goes back to the 19th century.

This was solidified further in DaVinci Editrice S.R.L. v. ZiKo Games LLC (2016) ruling.

Copyright law does not protect an idea; only its expression is protected. Nola Spice , 783 F.3d at 551. A party claiming infringement may place " ‘no reliance upon any similarity in expression resulting from’ unprotectable elements." Apple Comput. , 35 F.3d at 1446 (quoting Aliotti v. R. Dakin & Co. , 831 F.2d 898, 901 (9th Cir.1987) ). Copyright does not protect game rules because they fall within the section 102(b) exceptions for an "idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation." See, e.g. , Incredible Techs., Inc. v. Virtual Techs., Inc. , 400 F.3d 1007, 1012 (7th Cir.2005) ("[T]he Copyright Act provides that copyright protection does not extend to any "method of operation...regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work." (quoting § 102(b) )); Whist Club v. Foster , 42 F.2d 782, 782 (S.D.N.Y.1929) ("In the conventional laws or rules of a game, as distinguished from the forms or modes of expression in which they may be state[d], there can be no literary property susceptible of copyright."); MELVILLE B. & DAVID NIMMER, NIMMER ON COPYRIGHT § 2.18[H][3] (2010) ("[N]o copyright may be obtained in the system or manner of playing a Davinci Editrice S.R.L. v. ZiKo Games, LLC, 183 F.Supp.3d 820, 118 U.S.P.Q.2d 1501 (S.D. Tex., 2016) game or engaging in any other sporting or like activity.").

"[G]ame mechanics and the rules are not entitled to protection, but courts have found expressive elements copyrightable, including game labels, design of game boards, playing cards and graphical works." Tetris Holding, LLC v. Xio Interactive, Inc. , 863 F.Supp.2d 394, 404 (D.N.J. 2012) (citations omitted); see also Durham Indus., Inc. v. Tomy Corp. , 630 F.2d 905, 913 (2d Cir.1980) ("[C]opyright protection extends only to the artistic aspects, but not the mechanical or utilitarian features, of a protected work."). Unlike a book or movie plot, the rules and procedures, including the winning conditions, that make up a cardgame system of play do not themselves produce the artistic or literary content that is the hallmark of protectable expression. See Boyden, 18 GEO. MASON L. REV. at 466. Instead, the game rules, procedures, and winning conditions create the environment for expression. Id. ; see also Nat'l Basketball Ass'n , 105 F.3d at 846 ("Unlike movies, plays, television programs, or operas, athletic events are competitive and have no underlying script.").

This general rule is consistent with the decision in Baker v. Selden , 101 U.S. 99, 25 L.Ed. 841 (1879), in which the Supreme Court ruled that a particular bookkeeping system was not copyrightable. The language and illustrations that the plaintiff had used to explain his system were copyrightable, but they did not protect the system itself from use by other parties. The Copyright Office has applied the rule that copyright does not protect a system's operation method to games. The December 2011 fact sheet for Copyright Registration of Games states:

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or 9 trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author's expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. - U.S. COPYRIGHT OFFICE , FL-108, COPYRIGHT REGISTRATION OF GAMES (2011).

In Chamberlin v. Uris Sales Corporation , 56 F.Supp. 987 (S.D.N.Y.1944), the court held that the plaintiff could not rely on copyright protection for the rules of the [183 F.Supp.3d 831] game "Acy-Ducy," a four-player variation of backgammon. The court found that the plaintiff's game lacked the originality necessary for copyright protection, noting that "it is very doubtful if rules of a game can, in any event, be copyrightable subject matter." Id. at 988 (citations omitted). In Freedman v. Grolier Enters., Inc. , 1973 WL 19914 (S.D.N.Y. June 30, 1973), the court held that "[t]he placing of single numeral point count values beneath the suit symbols on honor cards in bridge decks [was] not copyrightable." Id. at *2. "[W]hen an idea is so restrictive that it necessarily requires a particular form of expression, that is, when the idea and its expression are functionally inseparable, to permit the copyrighting of the expression would be to grant the copyright owner a monopoly of the idea." Id. at *3.

Courts that have found infringement of a game generally focus on the visual appearance used in the game or on expressive aspects of the game's characters. Atari, Inc. v. N. Am. Philips Consumer Elecs. Corp. , 672 F.2d 607, 610 (7th Cir.1982), for example, Davinci Editrice S.R.L. v. ZiKo Games, LLC, 183 F.Supp.3d 820, 118 U.S.P.Q.2d 1501 (S.D. Tex., 2016) involved a copyright claim for the popular PAC-MAN game. PAC-MAN centered on a "gobbler" character eating dots as it progressed through a maze while avoiding "ghost monsters." The allegedly infringing game was essentially the same. The court held that the PAC-MAN game play—a character eating its way through dots in a maze while being chased—was not protectable. Id. at 617. But the court did find the characters' appearances and names protectable, because they were uniquely designed, fanciful, and "without reference to the real world." Id. at 617–18.

This is from the judgment.

Learned Hand's explanation of copyright protection in Nichols v. Universal Pictures Corp. is instructive. "If Twelfth Night were copyrighted, it is quite possible that a second 13 comer might so closely imitate Sir Toby Belch or Malvolio as to infringe, but it would not be enough that for one of his characters he cast a riotous knight who kept wassail to the discomfort of the household, or a vain and foppish steward who became amorous of his mistress." 45 F.2d 119, 121 (2d Cir.1930). In Learned Hand's example of noninfringement, the steward is vain and foppish and in love with his mistress. The roles and characters in Bang! and their interactions are far less developed than the steward and mistress in Learned Hand's description. Assigning a special ability to a Bang! character tells us little about how that [183 F.Supp.3d 835] character interacts with others. Bang! characters do not have delineated personalities, temperaments, back stories, or other features typical of characters in movies and books that contribute to making those characters' interactions protected. Their feelings about each other are undefined except for the crude boundary set by alignment or opposition. See Nichols v. Universal Pictures Corp. , 45 F.2d 119, 121 (2d Cir.1930) ("The less developed the characters, the less they can be copyrighted; that is the penalty an author must bear for marking them too indistinctly.").

The undisputed summary judgment evidence shows that Bang!'s characters, roles, and interactions are not substantially similar to those in LOTK . The aspects of the roles, characters, and interactions that are similar are not expressive, and aspects that are expressive are not substantially similar. ZiKo and Yoka are entitled to summary judgment of noninfringement.

As one can see that Ryan is in the wrong by the US Copyright Office and the US federal courts. Like I said, I cited a lawyer. You cited a game designer/businessman. I win.

hey keep being smugly confident that you've never been wrong about anything in your life.

This is what we call an ad hominem logical fallacy. It is deployed only when an individual has been soundly beaten to a bloody pulp verbally as a last ditch effort to derail the conversation. Usually this is combined with a form of projection.

I've been wrong plenty of times. In fact, when I am wrong I admit it and thank the person for correcting me. However, I am very rarely wrong since I research the subject before rushing off to comment on something.

You're right, that was an ad hominem and I apologize, I shouldn't have just snapped off a quick reply.

However, pretending that Ryan wrote the OGL himself with no lawyers involved is disingenuous at best. Of course they had lawyers involved when they wrote it. You could argue that he is now, 23 years later putting spin on what their true intentions were, and I'd perhaps buy that, but claiming that just because he's not a lawyer somehow makes you right is ridiculous.
 

JamesDixon

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You're right, that was an ad hominem and I apologize, I shouldn't have just snapped off a quick reply.

Apology is accepted.

:love:

However, pretending that Ryan wrote the OGL himself with no lawyers involved is disingenuous at best. Of course they had lawyers involved when they wrote it. You could argue that he is now, 23 years later putting spin on what their true intentions were, and I'd perhaps buy that, but claiming that just because he's not a lawyer somehow makes you right is ridiculous.

I never said that lawyers weren't involved in the creation of the OGL. This is what I said.

Ryan's not a lawyer which means my lawyer trumps a businessman without any legal experience.

I even trumped my own lawyer by providing the rules from the US Copyright Office and that trumps everyone.

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or 9 trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author's expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. - U.S. COPYRIGHT OFFICE , FL-108, COPYRIGHT REGISTRATION OF GAMES (2011).

Just because a lawyer drafts something that is blatantly illegal doesn't make it correct. The US Copyright Office and the US courts have held that game mechanics cannot be copyrighted nor the ideas behind them. What is protected is that exact expression as a whole. Because lawyers that drafted an illegal document that subverts US Copyright and contract law opens themselves up to sanctions by the court. Do you honestly think Wizard's lawyers are willing to go into court to risk their licenses to practice? Just getting your juris doctorate costs several hundreds of thousands of dollars and having that debt hang over you ensures that you're going to abide by the court rules.

When Harmony Gold took Pirannah Games to court over the Battletech mechs they designed over claims of violating Harmony Gold's Robotech copyrights HG's lawyers were 1 step away from losing their licenses for breaking the law. HG lost their case and is now prohibited from prosecuting future copyright cases due to the HG v. PG case being dismissed with prejudice.

That's where all these RPG companies stand at right now. They are all engaged in copyright misuse which is illegal.

If I'm rewriting AD&D 2E and using the same mechanics as a base, but I have different art it is legal. If I take the entire rules as is without modification it's illegal since I am using the exact expression of those rules.
 
Vatnik
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Can anyone explain in simple terms and very briefly what the fuck changed?

Can you still make OGL 3.5 games? If so, what is the problem anyway?
 

JamesDixon

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Can anyone explain in simple terms and very briefly what the fuck changed?

Can you still make OGL 3.5 games? If so, what is the problem anyway?

Wizards said if you violate their political policies that they can steal your IP. They also are saying you can use their rules with their permission, but you can already do that as game mechanics are public domain.
 

JamesDixon

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What do you mean steal? Do I give up ownership of IP by using OGL now?

If they hate your political opinions the OGL gave them the right to take your work. Plus they also want you to pay taxes for using public domain rules to them based upon your sales.
 
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Can anyone explain in simple terms and very briefly what the fuck changed?

Can you still make OGL 3.5 games? If so, what is the problem anyway?

So far nothing changed.
1. New OGL gets leaked. It claims that the old OGL won't be valid starting this Friday and if you want to publish OGL material you need to sign the new one which makes you give up 20% of everything you make to Hasbro, also they can steal everything you publish until OGL whenever they chose to.
2. Everyone gets pissed about it. Paizio announces that they'll release their own better OGL.
3. WoTC goes silent and doesn't comment on any of that.
4. On Friday they've released the statement which called everything a misunderstanding. They acknowledged that leaked OGL was real, but they called it a "draft". It's obvious that they still want to push the new OGL but change it somewhat to make it seem less Jewish.
 

Caim

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Can anyone explain in simple terms and very briefly what the fuck changed?

Can you still make OGL 3.5 games? If so, what is the problem anyway?
Quick rundown:

- WotC wants to update the OGL from version 1.0 (the one that everyone was using for 3.5e and 5e stuff) to 1.1
- WotC argues that a perpetual license (which OGL 1.0 is) isn't non-revocable, even though many countries in the world (like the Commonwealth) having laws that say otherwise
- WotC owns everything licensed by OGL 1.1 and everything derived from things made under OGL 1.1 including video games, apps, novels, fanfiction, music, songs, dance and pantomime because FUCK mimes
- WotC can reprint anything you made under OGL 1.1 without having to even name you, let alone pay you
- If you have a gross annual revenue over $50k with your OGL 1.1 stuff you have to let WotC audit your books
- If you have a gross annual revenue over $750k with your OGL 1.1 stuff you owe WoTC 25% of every dollar over the $750k threshhold. Note that this is gross and not net revenue, so this might very well price a publisher out of the market
- WotC can, if they don't like what you are making or what you say about them on Twitter, revoke your license
- WotC can change the OGL with a 30 day notice, so have fun potentially altering your entire business model in a month
- If you sue WotC you immediately lose your license, something that's illegal in many parts of the world

Normies are upset by this because it means that WotC now owns their shitty campaign and everything in it and can do whatever with it, and because it turns out that the company with a $5b revenue over 2021 is not your friend and wants to make money. The people over at Critical Role, one of the densest concentrations of normies in the RPG sphere, have released a very milquetoast statement that people were also upset by, but this was likely because they are under contract and can't talk shit about WotC. Paizo, the company with a history of giving WotC the finger with Pathfinder, has decided to circumvent this by creating the Open RPG Creative License (aka the ORC License) that lives up to the spirit of the OGL, which will be spearheaded by the same guy who laid the groundwork for the OGL. The intention is that Paizo won't be the owner of this license and instead have it be out there in a similar fashion to Linux. Several other big publishers have thrown their lot in with Paizo, eager to profit off the collapse of D&D. WotC is now backpedaling at record speed and claiming that the document with nothing to indicate that it was a draft was actually a draft, which nobody's buying especially since they seem to keep the part where they can change the OGL with a 30 day notice.

Also the current president of WotC is one Cynthia Williams, making this the second time a woman named Williams drives D&D into the fucking ground.
 

mondblut

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Also the current president of WotC is one Cynthia Williams, making this the second time a woman named Williams drives D&D into the fucking ground.

Holy mother of god. It can't be real :lol:
 

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